On 2 Aug 2004 08:25:26 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Stacey, AA7YA

The City of Grandhaven, MI has just set up WiFi for the whole area, and
Ottawa County is taking about doing the same for the whole county.

How could any local entity (govt. or otherwise) do this using satellite?
The cost of launching a satellite is too high. Aren't the existing
staellite Internet services (DirecWay -- is there any other?) slow and
expensive, and require a large outlay up front for equipment?

Alan NV8A


On 08/14/04 05:47 am S. Hanrahan put fingers to keyboard and launched
the following message into cyberspace:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Minnie Bannister wrote in message ...
The City of Grandhaven, MI has just set up WiFi for the whole area, and
Ottawa County is taking about doing the same for the whole county.

There ya go!

How could any local entity (govt. or otherwise) do this using satellite?
The cost of launching a satellite is too high. Aren't the existing
staellite Internet services (DirecWay -- is there any other?) slow and
expensive, and require a large outlay up front for equipment?

They can take any number of routes into existing satellite
capabilities which are both inaccessible and unaffordale out here at
the RRAP consumer level.

Very hypothetical example: Podunk Hollow County ND pays some first
tier commercial ISP which has a connection into the INTELSAT network
and pays them $10,000 a month for their connection. Could be AT&T,
Verizon, Comcast, etc.

Then Podunk Hollow County becomes a local non-profit ISP which puts up
a bunch of Wi-Fi nodes, signs up 2,000 of it's citizens as subscibers
to it's service and charges them ten bucks a month for the connection.
The $10,000 "profit" they appear to be getting in this scenario
actually goes into initial capital investment recovery, the sinking
fund and the system operating and maintenance expenses.

Alan NV8A

w3rv




On 08/14/04 05:47 am S. Hanrahan put fingers to keyboard and launched
the following message into cyberspace:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:31:31 -0400, Minnie Bannister
wrote:

How could any local entity (govt. or otherwise) do this using satellite?
The cost of launching a satellite is too high. Aren't the existing
staellite Internet services (DirecWay -- is there any other?) slow and
expensive, and require a large outlay up front for equipment?

Easy, they (local entity) won't have to.

Sure, there's DirecWay, then there's Starband, and soon there will be
a third player, WildBlue.


Alan NV8A

Stacey/ AA7YA

S. Hanrahan wrote in message . ..
On 2 Aug 2004 08:25:26 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Probably not - that is, if we're talking about customers directly
accessing the
satellite. While there's definitely a future for satellite comms, the
"last mile" problem combined with the enormous bandwidth of fiber
limits its usefulness as a general-purpose broadband access method.

Say you orbit a new, state of the art satellite. How much bandwidth
can it provide to how many customers? Compare that to what is
available in a single fiber. Also remember that once the duct is in
place, pulling another fiber isn't that expensive, and that new
technologies permit more bandwidth in existing fibers.

--

One thing the BPL folks downplay is that they really only use the
power lines for customer delivery (the "last mile" or so). Which could
almost always be done better by some form of Wi-Fi, DSL, cable, or
(yes) satellite.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
S. Hanrahan wrote in message . ..
On 2 Aug 2004 08:25:26 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Wi-fi is already much bigger than the laserdisc was and it's growing
exponentially. The laserdisc died on the stores shelves from the
gitgo.

Probably not - that is, if we're talking about customers directly
accessing the
satellite.

It's the cost of consumer direct access to the satellites which is the
show-stopper and I don't see it coming down to dialup costs for years
if ever. 80% of the U.S. consumers with access are still using dialup
connections and most of 'em are not going to move to broadband until
the costs get a lot closer to dialup than they are.

While there's definitely a future for satellite comms, the
"last mile" problem combined with the enormous bandwidth of fiber
limits its usefulness as a general-purpose broadband access method.

Say you orbit a new, state of the art satellite. How much bandwidth
can it provide to how many customers?

A whole bunch. Even the old birds which have been up for years can
repeat something like 900 TV channels and those are not considered
high-capacity satellites.

Compare that to what is
available in a single fiber. Also remember that once the duct is in
place, pulling another fiber isn't that expensive, and that new
technologies permit more bandwidth in existing fibers.

What "ducts"?? There aren't any ducts running into farms and vacation
lodges out in the boonies. They'll have the last mile problem for
years to come. Until the phone companies replace their twisted-pair
wiring with cable, fiber optic and otherwise.

w3rv

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
S. Hanrahan wrote in message . ..
On 2 Aug 2004 08:25:26 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Wi-fi is already much bigger than the laserdisc was and it's growing
exponentially. The laserdisc died on the stores shelves from the
gitgo.

Probably not - that is, if we're talking about customers directly
accessing the
satellite.

It's the cost of consumer direct access to the satellites which is the
show-stopper and I don't see it coming down to dialup costs for years
if ever. 80% of the U.S. consumers with access are still using dialup
connections and most of 'em are not going to move to broadband until
the costs get a lot closer to dialup than they are.

While there's definitely a future for satellite comms, the
"last mile" problem combined with the enormous bandwidth of fiber
limits its usefulness as a general-purpose broadband access method.

Say you orbit a new, state of the art satellite. How much bandwidth
can it provide to how many customers?

A whole bunch. Even the old birds which have been up for years can
repeat something like 900 TV channels and those are not considered
high-capacity satellites.

Compare that to what is
available in a single fiber. Also remember that once the duct is in
place, pulling another fiber isn't that expensive, and that new
technologies permit more bandwidth in existing fibers.

What "ducts"?? There aren't any ducts running into farms and vacation
lodges out in the boonies. They'll have the last mile problem for
years to come. Until the phone companies replace their twisted-pair
wiring with cable, fiber optic and otherwise.

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...
S. Hanrahan wrote in message
...
On 2 Aug 2004 08:25:26 -0700, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Wires for any type of communications purposes are already on their way
into history. BPL was stillborn from the gitgo.

The future is satellite. Wi-Fi will just be a fad like the laserdisc.

Wi-fi is already much bigger than the laserdisc was and it's growing
exponentially. The laserdisc died on the stores shelves from the
gitgo.

For reasons listed in another post.

Probably not - that is, if we're talking about customers directly
accessing the satellite.

It's the cost of consumer direct access to the satellites which is the
show-stopper and I don't see it coming down to dialup costs for years
if ever. 80% of the U.S. consumers with access are still using dialup
connections and most of 'em are not going to move to broadband until
the costs get a lot closer to dialup than they are.

Absolutely. This is where DSL can really get the market, because with DSL you
don't need a second phone line.

While there's definitely a future for satellite comms, the
"last mile" problem combined with the enormous bandwidth of fiber
limits its usefulness as a general-purpose broadband access method.

Say you orbit a new, state of the art satellite. How much bandwidth
can it provide to how many customers?

A whole bunch. Even the old birds which have been up for years can
repeat something like 900 TV channels and those are not considered
high-capacity satellites.

That means 900 customers can have 6 MHz of bandwidth each. Or maybe 5400 can
have 1 MHz each.

When the satellite repeats a channel, it doesn't matter how many people watch
it. Internet bandwidth is a completely different beast.

Compare that to what is
available in a single fiber. Also remember that once the duct is in
place, pulling another fiber isn't that expensive, and that new
technologies permit more bandwidth in existing fibers.

What "ducts"?? There aren't any ducts running into farms and vacation
lodges out in the boonies. They'll have the last mile problem for
years to come. Until the phone companies replace their twisted-pair
wiring with cable, fiber optic and otherwise.

I meant ducts that carry it to within a mile of the customer. Ducts that go
across the country, etc. Satellites can't create another RF spectrum.

Fiber and Wi-Fi...watch out...

One caveat!

A lot of folks are setting up their own little wireless networks. The stuff is
becoming cheaper than the cable it replaces!

But not enough folks understand the need to encrypt. Without good encryption of
your network, anybody can drive by with a lapper and access your network - and
your hard drives, etc. Your internet firewall won't help because your network
thinks the invader is *inside* your network, not outside. You need for the
network itself to be encrypted.

Where's my RJ-45 plugs?

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Jim, N2EY

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"N2EY" == n2ey writes:

[...]

N2EY One caveat!

N2EY A lot of folks are setting up their own little wireless
N2EY networks. The stuff is becoming cheaper than the cable it
N2EY replaces!

And for good reason. In my new location, I'm terrified to drill
through the walls (it's an old *solid* house that predates cheap
sheetrock by decades) but I've no trouble using wireless.

N2EY But not enough folks understand the need to encrypt. Without
N2EY good encryption of your network, anybody can drive by with a
N2EY lapper and access your network - and your hard drives, etc. Your
N2EY internet firewall won't help because your network thinks the
N2EY invader is *inside* your network, not outside. You need for the
N2EY network itself to be encrypted.

If someone truly sets up their network in this manner, they are truly
running a serious risk, as you describe. I've just moved, so I have
to reinstall my network, and it will actually be set up with two
wireless access points: one for the "inside", which will be
MAC-restricted and locked down with WEP (until my operating system
fully supports TKIP in which case I'll go up to that protocol), and
one which is "outside" for any and all comers to sit in the nearby
park and reach the internet. No traffic goes to the inside from the
outside, and both sides can see the internet, so life is good.

N2EY Where's my RJ-45 plugs?

Put some time and effort into understanding exactly how to make it all
work properly, and you'll find that you need fewer RJ-45 plugs.

N2EY 73 de Jim, N2EY

Oh, and I get that you're not talking about setting up your own
network in the encryption-free manner in which you describe. I'm just
trying to show that there are many good ways to make wireless work
such that you can be friendly to your neighbors while protecting your
assets.

Jack.
(one of those paranoid computer security types)
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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Jack Twilley wrote in message ...
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Oh, and I get that you're not talking about setting up your own
network in the encryption-free manner in which you describe. I'm just
trying to show that there are many good ways to make wireless work
such that you can be friendly to your neighbors while protecting your
assets.

I use a very simple all-platforms bulletproof "security protocol"
Jack. I don't put anything of a sensitive nature on a hard drive in a
computer which is networked, particulary when the network includes the
Internet, *nothing*. Net result is that my sensitive info can't
possibly get hacked and I don't have to diddle with any contorted
encryption and firewall sorts of pushups. I could care less if this
computer gets hacked, there's nothing in it which is of any pecuniary
or "intelligence" value at all to anybody else. What do I care if
somebody taps into my antenna modeling files, e-mail to N2EY or my
..jpegs of family and such which are in this box?!

Of course in the process I'm giving up a lot of current-tech
conveniences like online banking, online shopping and others. But
that's OK where I come from, my telephone still works and I still dial
around to place orders with the plastic, the banks are still issuing
statements, the post office still sells stamps, yadda, yadda. I have
yet to run into a transaction or an instance of passing out any other
type of sensitive info which was stymied by doing it offline.

Depends on the tradeoffs you make between security and convenience,
I've taken the easy way out of the whole endless computer security
swamp.

Jack.

w3rv

(one of those paranoid computer security types)

(ya done it to yerself Jack)