"Mike Coslo" wrote

But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

It's our very own "Middle-east" problem.


If they ever make a movie of "A Confederacy of Dunces", the Pulitzer
Prize winner by John Kennedy Toole, we shall have to cast...

....Len Anderson as Ignatius J. Reilly
....Steve Robeson as Patrolman Mancuso
....Brian Burke as Darlene, the wannabe stripper.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 9/22/2004 7:42 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo

writes:



Jimmie chastise nursie? Har!

The castisement is a very gentle slap on the wrist with a wet noodle.

"Naughty boy, Steve, mustn't say such bad words!" will sum it up.


It is hard to control what Jim posts. It would be a lot easier if you
were the moderator.


I'm not the "moderator" in here. This is an open forum.

Problem is, a few do NOT want that...they want a cozy little chat
room filled only with their own kine. They are the ones polluting.

I couldn't agree more!


The problem here, Mike, is that on more than one occassion Lennie HAS
demanded certain actions (or cessation of actions) from various persons.

Oh yes! Interesting that he is the one to prove his own point. I
probably should have put a smiley after that.


He didn't get his way, of course, but he does take liberties with the very
same "rules" he would impose on others...


I have noticed that. There is a certain type that accuses others of
what they are trying to do themselves. He used to accuse me of trying to
be the moderator, and yet becomes very agitated when someone posts
something he disagrees with. Eventually it becomes a tip-off to the
person's motives.


Not quite. Like Moose, Elk, Eagles, Lions type of clubs, all full
of brave macho types bragging it up at the club bar.

Now that tells us much.


If you had been to one of those, then you do not need to be "told"
about it. It is self-evident. Merely observe. That's all that's
necessary.

A buncha guys, and sometimes gals. People put back a few. Some are
great folk, some are obnoxious. A microcosm of life. I have no interest
in that sort of thing, but it's harmless enough as long as they don't
drive off half-tanked.



If you haven't been to a fraternal order hall with bar, then think of a
conclave of PCTA self-described wire-pullers and add some alky.
Same thing.

Don't hate, man.


C'mon Mike...Don't expect miracles.


hehe, I'm just a cockeyed, hockey puck optimist! 8^)


OBEY them. The PCTA extras RULE! Hi hi.

Since when? And what do they rule anyhow?


Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.


Protestations to the contrary, Mike, just about all of us in the "pro
code" camp have expressed and discussed other modes, activities and interests.

Yup!

Lennie keeps dragging that old, tired rhetoric of his around and tries to
wave it like a tattered old battle flag.

I wish he'd slack off on the Morse code and give us more of the stories
with the historical aspect.

Like MOST of his stuff, it's tired, dated and for the most part, not true.
But it makes him happy to wave it.


Governments (and all newsgroupies) should obey Them (the
PCTA that is) simply because the PCTA are.

that would be bad if these folk are oppressing you. But as the
(probably) most prolific poster here, how can that be?



If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.


Not in Lennie's world. Thank God it goes no farther than his own, sad and
beleagured mind.


That should end any "dispute." The PCTA get what they want.
The name is readjusted to what it had become in testing.


Amateur radio is just another hobby involving electronics. There are
dozens-plus hobbies involving electronics and that is where the
electronics-interested hobbyists have gone. Most of those non-ham
hobbyists don't give a damn about morse code or recreating some
"pioneer days" re-enactments through constantly re-living olden
days that were around before most hams of today were born.

I guess history must be bad, huh?


Of course it is.

UNLESS, of course, you are a one-tour-wonder Army radio mechanic from
1953.

Then the tale warrants retelling at every opportunity.


I wouldn't mind actually hearing more details of that time, without the
to me strange comparisons to Morse code users of today. I've read parts
of his experience, but I imagine there are interesting details.


There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.


Not all readers have "seen that".

I, for one, have publically stated (and do so again here) that although I
support Morse code use AND testing, it's time is passing and it's time to move
on.

Of course Lennie ignores this (and similar comments from other posters of
similar thought) and goes right on with his assertions about how allegedly
reluctant any one is to discuss anything else.

Even more ironic is that when we DO discuss anything else, Lennie or Brian
do thier best to pull the thread into yet another "PCTA Extras Destroying The
Radio World" rant.


Kinda makes you think that is about all they have to offer.


There's lots of folks who MIGHT have come in here and made their
opinions known on issues...but are hesitant to not wanting to be
called nasty names by those same PCTA extras. That's the
"rule" part...rule by intimidation, intimidation by any manner.

At least the NCTA and interested others don't call anyone names! ;^)


Uh huh.

Betchya I could sell you a bride in New York, too, Mike...?!?!

Seriously, has Lenover21 or William ever called anyone in here names,
or made derogatory "baby talk" or whatever kind of talk it is; or
otherwise denigrated others?

Oh..... yes.......I guess they have...



For most folks, that rule-by-intimidation isn't comfortable, isn't
open, certainly isn't conducive (in any way) to discussion...the
intimidation consists mostly of diss and cuss at non-morse folks,
zero discussion.

hmmm, I don't see it that way at all. Well, everyone is entitled to
their opinion.


The "diss and cuss" comes from being "dissed" and "cussed" by certain
non-Amateur aggitators. One in particular.


- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote

But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

It's our very own "Middle-east" problem.



If they ever make a movie of "A Confederacy of Dunces", the Pulitzer
Prize winner by John Kennedy Toole, we shall have to cast...

...Len Anderson as Ignatius J. Reilly
...Steve Robeson as Patrolman Mancuso
...Brian Burke as Darlene, the wannabe stripper.


HOWL! Thanks, I needed that today!!!



- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:
[snip]
Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.


As am I.

[snip]
There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.


As do I.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Len Over 21 wrote:

[snip]

Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.



As am I.

[snip]
There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute

and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.



As do I.


I see a trend here, Dee.


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

KØHB wrote:

You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.

Get with the program. No one is "mistaken" or "partially correct" on
r.r.a.p. They either 100% totally agree with you, or they are "a lying,
scum sucking, bottom feeding no-code beeper." There is no in between,
and there must be at least one of each in every conversation here.
Anything which resembles a rational exchange of ideas and useful
information will either be ignored, or some enterprising induhvidual
will hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about Morse. No
other "Policy" conversation is allowed to survive unmolested.

Whoa there! That was Andersonesque!

Wrong. It is not "Andersonesque." It isn't "Brakobesque" or any
other "...esque."

Hans Brakob is just telling it like it is...in that posting...though there
is doubt of validity in a subsequent posting. .

A small clique of morse inchworms have crawled in here attempting
to be rulers.

They champion one way, their way...in whatever they talk about.

Anyone who disagrees with them are treated to personal insults,
invective, denigrations, and pejorations which go far beyond the
subject of any thread. They do not like opposition so they seek to
intimidate others. Indeed, their opinion skins are very thin and
peel away easily. Such skin cannot take transport into the world
of reality, remaining whole only if kept in their single-minded mental
world of imagination.

"Policy" for any group must be examined in the light of day, not the
darkness of mythical dominion of physical/mental force by those
wishing/needing to subjugate others.

New concepts and ideas are ill-accepted by many. Such are radical
and may have sharp points to puncture the balloons of the mythos-
believers, the over-prideful who seek rank and status to elevate their
egos. Not conducive to a hobby whose "leadership" espouses
friendly comradeship.

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Jimmie chastise nursie? Har!

The castisement is a very gentle slap on the wrist with a wet noodle.

"Naughty boy, Steve, mustn't say such bad words!" will sum it up.


It is hard to control what Jim posts. It would be a lot easier if you
were the moderator.


I'm not the "moderator" in here. This is an open forum.

Problem is, a few do NOT want that...they want a cozy little chat
room filled only with their own kine. They are the ones polluting.

I couldn't agree more!

Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?


Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.

Yet you've bought into the morsemanship-is-all ethos and condone
the polluters.

Please don't try to use political spin on what you've posted. You
aren't in the political pro leagues yet...they've had centuries to
perfect spin and are good at it.

Governments (and all newsgroupies) should obey Them (the
PCTA that is) simply because the PCTA are.

that would be bad if these folk are oppressing you. But as the
(probably) most prolific poster here, how can that be?

Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.

No one is "oppressing" me.

I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

PCTA clearly wish to oppress those against the code test (evident
from their public statements) by intimidation, personal insults, or
whatever means they can use...which includes considerable fantasy
and wild imaginations on their parts.

I simply point out the "error of their ways" (a metaphor) and illustrate
how mythical their fraternal-order rules are...rules kept long, long
after their validity has expired.


If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.

Irrelevant reasons.

The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required for any
military personnel operating military radios below 30 MHz.

A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

Citizens Band Radio Service operating below 30 MHz became legal
in 1958 in the USA, absolutely no morsemanship test involved. Not
only that, CB became licenseless a few years later. [1958 is 46 years
ago, back when nearly all radios still used vacuum tubes]

A half century ago, teleprinters were operating at continuous through-
put of 60 WPM. A decade later that was 100 WPM and FSK band-
width was decreased by half of that at 60 WPM. When solid-state
electronics became more prevalent, teleprinter started to become
known as "data" with sustained rates of 300 WPM, then 1200 WPM,
then 4800, 9600, and finally, 56K WPM...whether by wire or radio.

A half century ago, television in the USA was beginning to standardize
on color video transmission, then adding stereophonic audio (some time
after audio-only FM stereophonic transmission was standard). In time
analog video-audio gave way to improved picture-and-sound digital TV
with more information in the same EM bandwidth. International satellite
relay of communications was an accomplished fact four decades ago
and now all the "equatorial" comm sat orbital spots are filled. No
dependence on the vagaries of the ionosphere to do international
communications.

GPSS has been with the world (along with GLONASS) for two decades
and with civilian users for over a decade, yielding precise terrestrial
location determination AND precise time...all over radio. Radio clocks
are available at consumer electronics stores for under $30 that update
themselves automatically to precise time from several LF broadcast
services. No need to tie into wire services or listen on HF for precise
time...the little inexpensive radio clocks offer one-second-per-day
accuracy, along with calendar information without operator assistance.

The Internet went public in 1991, 13 years ago, and spread like wild-
fire to all parts of the world. Millions upon millions use the Internet
daily, geographic boundaries seldom a limit, with no disturbance from
the ionosphere affecting HF. It is mass communications worldwide.

Cellular telephony, enabled through radio, has become a standard
means of communications for Americans. So much so that one in
three Americans has a cellular telephone subscription...about 100
million using those tiny, low-microwave-radio-range, portable radios
to access the telephone infrastructure.

All that while, during a veritable many-quantum-level-jumps in
technology, U.S. amateur radio "qualifications" (test regulations)
have required the morsemanship ability test to authorize operation
below 30 MHz by amateurs. That is still required.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times? It most certainly is. Has been for a long time.


I guess history must be bad, huh?

For U.S. amateur radio in comparison to the rest of the radio
world, it IS "bad."

"Bad" in that it lags far beyond the state of the radio art...supported
only by the radio designers and manufacturers using developments
from the rest of radio to modernize amateur transceivers so that they
can best "work" on-off keyed carriers a la the 1920s.


There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.

That is a given. You must support your klan.

I do hope you use fitted sheets.


At least the NCTA and interested others don't call anyone names! ;^)

Poor PCTA...they think the slightest negativism on their mythical
championship of morsemanhood is a "personal insult."

PCTA simply refuses to acknowledge that the world has advanced
and that amateur radio can no longer by "qualified" by radiotelegraphy
skill demonstrations. PCTA wound far too easily.


For most folks, that rule-by-intimidation isn't comfortable, isn't
open, certainly isn't conducive (in any way) to discussion...the
intimidation consists mostly of diss and cuss at non-morse folks,
zero discussion.

hmmm, I don't see it that way at all. Well, everyone is entitled to
their opinion.

NOT in here, according to the little clique of PCTA "regulars."

ALL must do as they had to do...or be silent. "They rule."

They try to enforce their rule by any means possible, usually that of
the personal insult against anyone differing from their exhalted
opinion. Tsk.

Not conducive to a hobby activity. More conducive to a dictatorship.

"Len Over 21" wrote


A better analogue would be Tennessee Williams' play "Cat
on a Tin Roof." That better suits your purpose, Big Daddy.


That's exactly what Ignatius J. Reilly would have said, right down to
the ignorance about the name of the play*.

Sunuvagun!

With all kind wishes,

de Hans, K0HB









*The Tennessee Williams play was entitled "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof".

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:
[snip]
Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.


As am I.

[snip]
There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.


As do I.

Two. "Strike twooooooo..." :-)

In article , Mike Coslo writes:


The problem here, Mike, is that on more than one occassion Lennie HAS
demanded certain actions (or cessation of actions) from various persons.

Oh yes! Interesting that he is the one to prove his own point. I
probably should have put a smiley after that.

Tsk. Hypocrites seem to forget that others see their hypocrisy,
don't need the "smiley" emoticon since they are laughing at the
absurdity of it all.

He didn't get his way, of course, but he does take liberties with the
very
same "rules" he would impose on others...

I have noticed that. There is a certain type that accuses others of
what they are trying to do themselves. He used to accuse me of trying to
be the moderator, and yet becomes very agitated when someone posts
something he disagrees with. Eventually it becomes a tip-off to the
person's motives.

My "motive" in here is to advocate the removal of the code test for
any radio operator license.

If you must question "motives," then question all those who demand
to keep the code test long after it has served any purpose.


I wish he'd slack off on the Morse code and give us more of the stories

with the historical aspect.

"You can't handle the truth!" - Col. Jessup (before being arrested)

The U.S. government hasn't "slacked off" on morse code testing since
WRC-03. Test Element 1 is still a test requirement.

My last "operating involvement" with HF radio came earlier this year.

I used a small (some say "tiny") 20 W SSB HF transceiver that
many radio amateurs have purchased for themselves. I was not
operating in any amateur bands.

Radio amateurs whose only exposure to "radio" is in amateurdom
will want to ridicule and denigrate non-amateur radio operation. That's
a psychological survival trait to overcome their own ignorance and
lack of experience.

Like MOST of his stuff, it's tired, dated and for the most part, not
true.
But it makes him happy to wave it.

Tsk. An illustration of my point by another...


I wouldn't mind actually hearing more details of that time, without the

to me strange comparisons to Morse code users of today. I've read parts
of his experience, but I imagine there are interesting details.

In this environment such is wasted effort.

There is a considerable body of knowledge and history compiled about
all of radio. Very little of it concerns amateur radio, which makes some
of the amateur radio lifestylers very angry. Those lifestylers were never
in that part of the radio world and want to shut their eyes and ears to it.


Kinda makes you think that is about all they have to offer.

PCTA extras can only offer braggadoccio about their "operating
skills" and their disgust at those who don't venerate them.


Seriously, has Lenover21 or William ever called anyone in here names,
or made derogatory "baby talk" or whatever kind of talk it is; or
otherwise denigrated others?

Oh..... yes.......I guess they have...

Only after prolonged exposure to those who yell and yell against
all those who don't agree with them.

Unfortunately, the PCTA extras in here are so thin-skinned they
cannot abide opposition of the slightest kind. Their problem.

The question (in my opinion) that should be surfacing is: Why is
there such a prolonged talk about "how good and noble" are the
PCTA extras and "how band and wrong" are the NCTA?

Time marches on, but few march to the beat of the CQ in morse
these days. The morse code test has long since outlived its
usefulness. There is NO validity in keeping it around just because
some middle-aged wannabes had to do it over 30 years ago. None
at all.

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
KØHB wrote:
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:



Why do I make mention of this?


Probably because it's Lennie who insists that no one here posts "on
subject" and only post to "do battle". Interesting, considering his
flagrant, frequent attacks on "Jimmy", "der Oberst" ,"Dill Sergeant",
"Mama Dee" andothers.


You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.


But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

It's our very own "Middle-east" problem.

If only he could blow himself up just once instead of every day.

Get with the program. No one is "mistaken" or "partially correct" on
r.r.a.p. They either 100% totally agree with you, or they are "a lying,
scum sucking, bottom feeding no-code beeper." There is no in between,
and there must be at least one of each in every conversation here.
Anything which resembles a rational exchange of ideas and useful
information will either be ignored, or some enterprising induhvidual
will hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about Morse. No
other "Policy" conversation is allowed to survive unmolested.

Whoa there! That was Andersonesque!

But you are right. Their bar room brawl floods into every thread on
rrap. A pity that.

I think it's just awful. Something should be done about it.

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


KØHB wrote:


You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.

Get with the program. No one is "mistaken" or "partially correct" on
r.r.a.p. They either 100% totally agree with you, or they are "a lying,
scum sucking, bottom feeding no-code beeper." There is no in between,
and there must be at least one of each in every conversation here.
Anything which resembles a rational exchange of ideas and useful
information will either be ignored, or some enterprising induhvidual
will hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about Morse. No
other "Policy" conversation is allowed to survive unmolested.

Whoa there! That was Andersonesque!


Wrong. It is not "Andersonesque." It isn't "Brakobesque" or any
other "...esque."

Respectfully I disagree. It was very much like one of your posts.

Hans Brakob is just telling it like it is...in that posting...though there
is doubt of validity in a subsequent posting. .

A small clique of morse inchworms have crawled in here attempting
to be rulers.

As have a small group of Nocoder people.

They champion one way, their way...in whatever they talk about.

Respecfully I disagree. There are *very* few that fit that description

Anyone who disagrees with them are treated to personal insults,
invective, denigrations, and pejorations which go far beyond the
subject of any thread. They do not like opposition so they seek to
intimidate others. Indeed, their opinion skins are very thin and
peel away easily. Such skin cannot take transport into the world
of reality, remaining whole only if kept in their single-minded mental
world of imagination.

Wow! PCTA's eh?


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Wrong. It is not "Andersonesque." It isn't "Brakobesque" or any
other "...esque."

Respectfully I disagree. It was very much like one of your posts.

Oh, poor thing you are!

Someone else describes a situation that thousands can see, and
you want to pretend it doesn't exist?!?!?

Tsk.


A small clique of morse inchworms have crawled in here attempting
to be rulers.

As have a small group of Nocoder people.

Tsk. A few individuals objecting to the morse myths propagated
for all these many decades?

Who is "ruling?" [answer rhetorical]

The "rulers" are those who are here on a regular basis, loudly
proclaiming the virtues and nobility of mighty morse and how they
are so "good and proper" because they use morse. Look at the
invective they hurl at the few NCTA in here.

Poor babies, those PCTA. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

They champion one way, their way...in whatever they talk about.

Respecfully I disagree. There are *very* few that fit that description

Disrespectfully, I wrote my opinion...and the "few" who fit that
description are here on a regular basis...by clear observation
that anyone can make.

Anyone who disagrees with them are treated to personal insults,
invective, denigrations, and pejorations which go far beyond the
subject of any thread. They do not like opposition so they seek to
intimidate others. Indeed, their opinion skins are very thin and
peel away easily. Such skin cannot take transport into the world
of reality, remaining whole only if kept in their single-minded mental
world of imagination.

Wow! PCTA's eh?

Absolutely.

If you feel so outraged, then, by all means, petition the FCC to change
the name of the ARS to the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

That new name would FIT very well seeing as that's what it takes to
get a U.S. amateur radio license having below-30-MHz privileges.

Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: "KØHB"
Date: 9/22/2004 10:21 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: . net


"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote


All of your "replies" vis-a-vis anything I have posted in
ANY thread has been of this angry, stick-it-in-your-ear kinda stuff.


Actually, I think you should "stick-it-in-" a somewhat lower posterior
orfice.

And a prime example of "Do As I Say, Not Do As I Do" kind of response,
Hans.

I find it quite ironic that you chastise others for confrontational or
acidic posts, yet you seem quite happy to jump right in and do it yourself.

It goes a long way towards unravelling your credibility as evenhanded.

Sure they are. We all are at one time or another. Even you.


I've only been wrong once on rrap. That's the time I thought I was
wrong, but I wasn't.

And this time. Again.

If you're so frustrated, why spend one more day here?


I'm not frustrated, Steve, just simply entertained by your predictable
knee-jerk reactions of angst and lack of tolerance for opposing opinion.
(In other words, it's great fun to watch you spin up your rotors when
someone tweaks your nose.)

Sure you're frustrated, Hans.

You've got the same case of "I Can't Have It My Way So I'll Make Everyone
Else Miserables" that Lennie has. Feel free to disagree, but it won't change a
thing.

Feel free to exercise the option of not participating if it so
offends you. We'll miss you, but we'll manage...


Is that kinda like "My way, or the highway" or "Don't let the door...."?

Nope. Just a friendly reminder that your opinion is no more or less
valued than anyone elses, but if you don't like the way things are going, there
ARE alternatives.

More than one person (meaning: other than me) has called Hans...
(gratuitous name calling deleted)...


"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know
him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy
against him." -- Jonathan Swift

Sunuvagun!

72, de Hans, K0HB

Still one short as always, I see. I imagine its always been that way for
you.

Sunnuvagun!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 9/22/2004 10:18 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

KØHB wrote:
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Why do I make mention of this?

Probably because it's Lennie who insists that no one here posts "on
subject" and only post to "do battle". Interesting, considering his
flagrant, frequent attacks on "Jimmy", "der Oberst" ,"Dill Sergeant",
"Mama Dee" andothers.

You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.

But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

And then there's Hans...who expresses his utter disdain for people who
pariticpate in flame wars, all the while tossing fuel on the fire from the
sidelines.

Some would call that two-faced.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


The problem here, Mike, is that on more than one occassion Lennie HAS
demanded certain actions (or cessation of actions) from various persons.

Oh yes! Interesting that he is the one to prove his own point. I
probably should have put a smiley after that.


Tsk. Hypocrites seem to forget that others see their hypocrisy,
don't need the "smiley" emoticon since they are laughing at the
absurdity of it all.


You are 100 percent correct. The hypocrites just don't see it.



He didn't get his way, of course, but he does take liberties with the

very

same "rules" he would impose on others...

I have noticed that. There is a certain type that accuses others of
what they are trying to do themselves. He used to accuse me of trying to
be the moderator, and yet becomes very agitated when someone posts
something he disagrees with. Eventually it becomes a tip-off to the
person's motives.


My "motive" in here is to advocate the removal of the code test for
any radio operator license.

I'd be more inclined to call it your rationale. Respectfully submitted
that you may have other motives.



If you must question "motives," then question all those who demand
to keep the code test long after it has served any purpose.

I observe motives, not question them. Have whatever motive you might like.



I wish he'd slack off on the Morse code and give us more of the stories


with the historical aspect.


"You can't handle the truth!" - Col. Jessup (before being arrested)


The U.S. government hasn't "slacked off" on morse code testing since
WRC-03. Test Element 1 is still a test requirement.

yes

My last "operating involvement" with HF radio came earlier this year.

I used a small (some say "tiny") 20 W SSB HF transceiver that
many radio amateurs have purchased for themselves. I was not
operating in any amateur bands.

Was that one of the MFJ units? Did it work well? I've looked at them,
and thought they might be nice for traveling with. Small, and
inexpensive enough that I wouldn't have to worry about damage to it, as
I might my main transceiver.


Radio amateurs whose only exposure to "radio" is in amateurdom
will want to ridicule and denigrate non-amateur radio operation. That's
a psychological survival trait to overcome their own ignorance and
lack of experience.

I always try not to ridicule people. My folks taught me better. Or
tried to! ;^)



Like MOST of his stuff, it's tired, dated and for the most part, not

true.

But it makes him happy to wave it.


Tsk. An illustration of my point by another...



I wouldn't mind actually hearing more details of that time, without the


to me strange comparisons to Morse code users of today. I've read parts
of his experience, but I imagine there are interesting details.


In this environment such is wasted effort.

Not really. I am an insatiable collector of such stories. And most
people are happy to share. some seem surprised because many new Hams
don't care about hearing about past exploits of others.


There is a considerable body of knowledge and history compiled about
all of radio. Very little of it concerns amateur radio, which makes some
of the amateur radio lifestylers very angry. Those lifestylers were never
in that part of the radio world and want to shut their eyes and ears to it.

I enjoy "non ARS" stories too. We have an Old timer in the local club
that had a career as an Engineer at a television station. Lots of good
stories about the stuff that went on there. He was happy to talk, and I
was happy to listen.


Kinda makes you think that is about all they have to offer.


PCTA extras can only offer braggadoccio about their "operating
skills" and their disgust at those who don't venerate them.


Well, I'm not too bad of a contester, but my CW skills frankly suck.
Mostly I hang out on PSK31, where I'm a fair typist.


Seriously, has Lenover21 or William ever called anyone in here names,
or made derogatory "baby talk" or whatever kind of talk it is; or
otherwise denigrated others?

Oh..... yes.......I guess they have...


Only after prolonged exposure to those who yell and yell against
all those who don't agree with them.

When I came here there was name calling. There still is name calling.
Maybe its a chicken and egg sort of thing. I don't know when it started,
or who started it. I'm not all that concerned about who started it
either. There's always time to start over.

If the participants want to.


Unfortunately, the PCTA extras in here are so thin-skinned they
cannot abide opposition of the slightest kind. Their problem.

It is a broad brush you paint with.

The question (in my opinion) that should be surfacing is: Why is
there such a prolonged talk about "how good and noble" are the
PCTA extras and "how band and wrong" are the NCTA?

That question might be honed to include the personalities involved.


Time marches on, but few march to the beat of the CQ in morse
these days.

Agreed. Most of them are Hams.

The morse code test has long since outlived its
usefulness. There is NO validity in keeping it around just because
some middle-aged wannabes had to do it over 30 years ago. None
at all.

If it goes away, I won't lose a moments sleep over it.

Hold on a second!! what's wrong with middle aged wallabies? I think
they are kinda cute!

- Mike KB3EIA -

William wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

KØHB wrote:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:




Why do I make mention of this?


Probably because it's Lennie who insists that no one here posts "on
subject" and only post to "do battle". Interesting, considering his
flagrant, frequent attacks on "Jimmy", "der Oberst" ,"Dill Sergeant",
"Mama Dee" andothers.


You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.


But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

It's our very own "Middle-east" problem.


If only he could blow himself up just once instead of every day.


Get with the program. No one is "mistaken" or "partially correct" on
r.r.a.p. They either 100% totally agree with you, or they are "a lying,
scum sucking, bottom feeding no-code beeper." There is no in between,
and there must be at least one of each in every conversation here.
Anything which resembles a rational exchange of ideas and useful
information will either be ignored, or some enterprising induhvidual
will hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about Morse. No
other "Policy" conversation is allowed to survive unmolested.

Whoa there! That was Andersonesque!

But you are right. Their bar room brawl floods into every thread on
rrap. A pity that.


I think it's just awful. Something should be done about it.

That's odd! I thought you enjoyed it.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Wrong. It is not "Andersonesque." It isn't "Brakobesque" or any
other "...esque."

Respectfully I disagree. It was very much like one of your posts.


Oh, poor thing you are!

Nope, Im just rolling along, fat, dumb and happy!


Someone else describes a situation that thousands can see, and
you want to pretend it doesn't exist?!?!?

Tsk.


hmm. His post was still very much like your posts, in spite of
thousands of people seeing it, regardless of it's accuracy.



A small clique of morse inchworms have crawled in here attempting
to be rulers.

As have a small group of Nocoder people.


Tsk. A few individuals objecting to the morse myths propagated
for all these many decades?

Who is "ruling?" [answer rhetorical]

The "rulers" are those who are here on a regular basis, loudly
proclaiming the virtues and nobility of mighty morse and how they
are so "good and proper" because they use morse. Look at the
invective they hurl at the few NCTA in here.

Poor babies, those PCTA. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.


They champion one way, their way...in whatever they talk about.

Respecfully I disagree. There are *very* few that fit that description


Disrespectfully, I wrote my opinion...and the "few" who fit that
description are here on a regular basis...by clear observation
that anyone can make.

Now, we need to remain respectful if we want to play.


Anyone who disagrees with them are treated to personal insults,
invective, denigrations, and pejorations which go far beyond the
subject of any thread. They do not like opposition so they seek to
intimidate others. Indeed, their opinion skins are very thin and
peel away easily. Such skin cannot take transport into the world
of reality, remaining whole only if kept in their single-minded mental
world of imagination.

Wow! PCTA's eh?


Absolutely.

And it is a very good thing that the NCTA's and interested others are
not that way, eh?


If you feel so outraged, then, by all means, petition the FCC to change
the name of the ARS to the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.


Very little outrages me. I think that may be your game, not mine.

- mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo

writes:



Jimmie chastise nursie? Har!

The castisement is a very gentle slap on the wrist with a wet noodle.

"Naughty boy, Steve, mustn't say such bad words!" will sum it up.


It is hard to control what Jim posts. It would be a lot easier if you
were the moderator.


I'm not the "moderator" in here. This is an open forum.

Problem is, a few do NOT want that...they want a cozy little chat
room filled only with their own kine. They are the ones polluting.

I couldn't agree more!


Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?

That is simply incorrect. I have and still do disagree with what Steve
sometimes posts, and I have noted it to him. Jim has also, on more
occasions than me. We do not support or condone their actions.

What the issue is is that I (and presumably Jim) do not go after people
in the manner that you want us to. It isn't my style, and I won't change
it to suit you.



Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.
They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship. It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.


Yet you've bought into the morsemanship-is-all ethos and condone
the polluters.

Please don't try to use political spin on what you've posted. You
aren't in the political pro leagues yet...they've had centuries to
perfect spin and are good at it.

hehe, political spin usually takes more than a one sentence paragraph.



Governments (and all newsgroupies) should obey Them (the
PCTA that is) simply because the PCTA are.

that would be bad if these folk are oppressing you. But as the
(probably) most prolific poster here, how can that be?


Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.


Sarcasm doesn't work well in print.

No one is "oppressing" me.

BINGO! You post as you se fit.


I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

And in the end, accomplish very little. That test is likely to go away
in spite of your antagonism



PCTA clearly wish to oppress those against the code test (evident
from their public statements) by intimidation,

How are a bunch of radio geeks going to intimidate me?

personal insults,


That one is a null. Plenty of that to go around on all sides.
or
whatever means they can use...which includes considerable fantasy
and wild imaginations on their parts.

Also a null. Plenty of that to go around on all sides.


I simply point out the "error of their ways" (a metaphor) and illustrate
how mythical their fraternal-order rules are...rules kept long, long
after their validity has expired.

And of course your method doesn't work very well for changing anyone's
mind. But it works perfectly if you want to engage in some nose tweaking
for the sheer joy of irritating someone.




If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.


Irrelevant reasons.

The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

So what?


No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No test at all is needed


No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required for any
military personnel operating military radios below 30 MHz.


I suspect no test is needed, beyond training to operate the equipment.
Could be wrong.


A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

Citizens Band Radio Service operating below 30 MHz became legal
in 1958 in the USA, absolutely no morsemanship test involved. Not
only that, CB became licenseless a few years later. [1958 is 46 years
ago, back when nearly all radios still used vacuum tubes]

No test at all is required for Citizen' band radio.


A half century ago, teleprinters were operating at continuous through-
put of 60 WPM. A decade later that was 100 WPM and FSK band-
width was decreased by half of that at 60 WPM. When solid-state
electronics became more prevalent, teleprinter started to become
known as "data" with sustained rates of 300 WPM, then 1200 WPM,
then 4800, 9600, and finally, 56K WPM...whether by wire or radio.

A half century ago, television in the USA was beginning to standardize
on color video transmission, then adding stereophonic audio (some time
after audio-only FM stereophonic transmission was standard). In time
analog video-audio gave way to improved picture-and-sound digital TV
with more information in the same EM bandwidth. International satellite
relay of communications was an accomplished fact four decades ago
and now all the "equatorial" comm sat orbital spots are filled. No
dependence on the vagaries of the ionosphere to do international
communications.

GPSS has been with the world (along with GLONASS) for two decades
and with civilian users for over a decade, yielding precise terrestrial
location determination AND precise time...all over radio. Radio clocks
are available at consumer electronics stores for under $30 that update
themselves automatically to precise time from several LF broadcast
services. No need to tie into wire services or listen on HF for precise
time...the little inexpensive radio clocks offer one-second-per-day
accuracy, along with calendar information without operator assistance.

The Internet went public in 1991, 13 years ago, and spread like wild-
fire to all parts of the world. Millions upon millions use the Internet
daily, geographic boundaries seldom a limit, with no disturbance from
the ionosphere affecting HF. It is mass communications worldwide.

Cellular telephony, enabled through radio, has become a standard
means of communications for Americans. So much so that one in
three Americans has a cellular telephone subscription...about 100
million using those tiny, low-microwave-radio-range, portable radios
to access the telephone infrastructure.

All that while, during a veritable many-quantum-level-jumps in
technology, U.S. amateur radio "qualifications" (test regulations)
have required the morsemanship ability test to authorize operation
below 30 MHz by amateurs. That is still required.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times? It most certainly is. Has been for a long time.

No, i can't. Unless you are saying you want no testing at all for HF
access, your argument is only half formed. If you ARE saying you want no
testing for the Amateur Radio service, Well, I *most* respectfully disagree!



I guess history must be bad, huh?


For U.S. amateur radio in comparison to the rest of the radio
world, it IS "bad."

"Bad" in that it lags far beyond the state of the radio art...supported
only by the radio designers and manufacturers using developments
from the rest of radio to modernize amateur transceivers so that they
can best "work" on-off keyed carriers a la the 1920s.


State of radio art would not pe permitted in the ARS.



There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.


That is a given. You must support your klan.

I do hope you use fitted sheets.



At least the NCTA and interested others don't call anyone names! ;^)


Poor PCTA...they think the slightest negativism on their mythical
championship of morsemanhood is a "personal insult."

hmmm, then why do you think that I should condemn Steve so badly? He is
doing nothing that you do not do.

Null.


PCTA simply refuses to acknowledge that the world has advanced
and that amateur radio can no longer by "qualified" by radiotelegraphy
skill demonstrations. PCTA wound far too easily.

Respectfully disagree. You make the statement, please provide the proof.


For most folks, that rule-by-intimidation isn't comfortable, isn't
open, certainly isn't conducive (in any way) to discussion...the
intimidation consists mostly of diss and cuss at non-morse folks,
zero discussion.

hmmm, I don't see it that way at all. Well, everyone is entitled to
their opinion.


NOT in here, according to the little clique of PCTA "regulars."

ALL must do as they had to do...or be silent. "They rule."

Proven wrong every time you post. I find it hard to understand why you
keep saying that sort of thing, when it obviously isn't the case.


They try to enforce their rule by any means possible, usually that of
the personal insult against anyone differing from their exhalted
opinion. Tsk.

Anyone that would be intimidated by *that* should probably avoid
Netnews! 8^)

Not conducive to a hobby activity. More conducive to a dictatorship.

Not been my experience as a Ham. You see bad, and declare that all is
bad. I see bad, and continue looking until I find the good. It is there.
You *can* turn it around. You probably think I'm being condescending
again, huh?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 9/22/2004 10:18 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

KØHB wrote:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:


Why do I make mention of this?


Probably because it's Lennie who insists that no one here posts "on
subject" and only post to "do battle". Interesting, considering his
flagrant, frequent attacks on "Jimmy", "der Oberst" ,"Dill Sergeant",
"Mama Dee" andothers.


You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.


The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.


But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.


And then there's Hans...who expresses his utter disdain for people who
pariticpate in flame wars, all the while tossing fuel on the fire from the
sidelines.

Some would call that two-faced.

I at least got him to admit that I'm "unusual" as opposed to "stupid"
as ha has been wont to call me in the past.

(psst... I still think he means stupid) HaHa!

- mike KB3EIA -

"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote


I find it quite ironic that you chastise others for confrontational or
acidic posts, yet you seem quite happy to jump right in and do
it yourself.


BBRA*, Steve. Small-bore guys don't stand a chance here.

72, de Hans, K0HB









*Big Boy Rules Apply

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
William wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

KØHB wrote:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:




Why do I make mention of this?


Probably because it's Lennie who insists that no one here posts "on
subject" and only post to "do battle". Interesting, considering his
flagrant, frequent attacks on "Jimmy", "der Oberst" ,"Dill Sergeant",
"Mama Dee" andothers.


You miss the point, Steve. The purpose of r.r.a.p. is no longer
discussion of policy, or learning something, or study of communications
theory.

The purpose is to FIGHT and to denegrate the dignity of all who do not
agree with you! Any other post is off topic and is not welcome here.


But who will be the first to stop? Steve will post as he is posted to,
and the other two in this sad saga will post that way until they are
ignored.

It's our very own "Middle-east" problem.


If only he could blow himself up just once instead of every day.


Get with the program. No one is "mistaken" or "partially correct" on
r.r.a.p. They either 100% totally agree with you, or they are "a lying,
scum sucking, bottom feeding no-code beeper." There is no in between,
and there must be at least one of each in every conversation here.
Anything which resembles a rational exchange of ideas and useful
information will either be ignored, or some enterprising induhvidual
will hijack the thread and turn it into an argument about Morse. No
other "Policy" conversation is allowed to survive unmolested.

Whoa there! That was Andersonesque!

But you are right. Their bar room brawl floods into every thread on
rrap. A pity that.


I think it's just awful. Something should be done about it.

That's odd! I thought you enjoyed it.

- Mike KB3EIA -

So much for trying to play along.

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?

That is simply incorrect. I have and still do disagree with what Steve
sometimes posts, and I have noted it to him. Jim has also, on more
occasions than me. We do not support or condone their actions.

Right...there's two sets of fingers wagging "no-no, naughty boy."

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

What the issue is is that I (and presumably Jim) do not go after people

in the manner that you want us to. It isn't my style, and I won't change
it to suit you.

In other words, you condone what a licensed ham is doing.

No sweat, the picture is perfectly clear.


Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.

Sarcasm doesn't work well in print.

Actually it does. The time isolation gives you plenty of thinking
about a reply that says "sarcasm doesn't affect you." :-)

No one is "oppressing" me.

BINGO! You post as you se fit.

No "bingo." That's just the way it is.

I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

And in the end, accomplish very little. That test is likely to go away
in spite of your antagonism

Tsk, tsk, tsk! :-)

That was patently transparent, Coslo. :-)


PCTA clearly wish to oppress those against the code test (evident
from their public statements) by intimidation,

How are a bunch of radio geeks going to intimidate me?

They've already gotten under your skin... :-)


I simply point out the "error of their ways" (a metaphor) and illustrate
how mythical their fraternal-order rules are...rules kept long, long
after their validity has expired.

And of course your method doesn't work very well for changing anyone's
mind. But it works perfectly if you want to engage in some nose tweaking
for the sheer joy of irritating someone.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. The Coslo nose got tweaked, did it? :-)


The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

So what?

The NCTA want that code test to discontinue. That should be
obvious.... :-)

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No test at all is needed

Tell that to the FCC.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required for any
military personnel operating military radios below 30 MHz.

I suspect no test is needed, beyond training to operate the equipment.
Could be wrong.

You are, but I will not do any nose-tweaking lest the inflammation
spread... :-)

A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

Citizens Band Radio Service operating below 30 MHz became legal
in 1958 in the USA, absolutely no morsemanship test involved. Not
only that, CB became licenseless a few years later. [1958 is 46 years
ago, back when nearly all radios still used vacuum tubes]

No test at all is required for Citizen' band radio.

No test was ever required for CB.


A half century ago, teleprinters were operating at continuous through-
put of 60 WPM. A decade later that was 100 WPM and FSK band-
width was decreased by half of that at 60 WPM. When solid-state
electronics became more prevalent, teleprinter started to become
known as "data" with sustained rates of 300 WPM, then 1200 WPM,
then 4800, 9600, and finally, 56K WPM...whether by wire or radio.

A half century ago, television in the USA was beginning to standardize
on color video transmission, then adding stereophonic audio (some time
after audio-only FM stereophonic transmission was standard). In time
analog video-audio gave way to improved picture-and-sound digital TV
with more information in the same EM bandwidth. International satellite
relay of communications was an accomplished fact four decades ago
and now all the "equatorial" comm sat orbital spots are filled. No
dependence on the vagaries of the ionosphere to do international
communications.

GPSS has been with the world (along with GLONASS) for two decades
and with civilian users for over a decade, yielding precise terrestrial
location determination AND precise time...all over radio. Radio clocks
are available at consumer electronics stores for under $30 that update
themselves automatically to precise time from several LF broadcast
services. No need to tie into wire services or listen on HF for precise
time...the little inexpensive radio clocks offer one-second-per-day
accuracy, along with calendar information without operator assistance.

The Internet went public in 1991, 13 years ago, and spread like wild-
fire to all parts of the world. Millions upon millions use the Internet
daily, geographic boundaries seldom a limit, with no disturbance from
the ionosphere affecting HF. It is mass communications worldwide.

Cellular telephony, enabled through radio, has become a standard
means of communications for Americans. So much so that one in
three Americans has a cellular telephone subscription...about 100
million using those tiny, low-microwave-radio-range, portable radios
to access the telephone infrastructure.

All that while, during a veritable many-quantum-level-jumps in
technology, U.S. amateur radio "qualifications" (test regulations)
have required the morsemanship ability test to authorize operation
below 30 MHz by amateurs. That is still required.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times? It most certainly is. Has been for a long time.

No, i can't. Unless you are saying you want no testing at all for HF
access, your argument is only half formed.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Not good manners to carry that to extremes. :-)

What I am saying is that the morse code test should be eliminated.

That's all.

Trying to reduce the argument to extremes ("reducto ad absurdum")
of the absurd is NOT a reply.


State of radio art would not pe permitted in the ARS.

?



Poor PCTA...they think the slightest negativism on their mythical
championship of morsemanhood is a "personal insult."

hmmm, then why do you think that I should condemn Steve so badly? He
is doing nothing that you do not do.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Why do you keep inserting mentions of that person?


PCTA simply refuses to acknowledge that the world has advanced
and that amateur radio can no longer by "qualified" by radiotelegraphy
skill demonstrations. PCTA wound far too easily.

Respectfully disagree. You make the statement, please provide the
proof.

The evidence is all archived in Google. :-)


Proven wrong every time you post. I find it hard to understand why you
keep saying that sort of thing, when it obviously isn't the case.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Nose got tweaked THAT hard, did it?


Not been my experience as a Ham. You see bad, and declare that all is
bad. I see bad, and continue looking until I find the good. It is there.

You are NOT acting like a Pollyanna. :-)

If you were "looking for the good," your tone would have been different.

As it is, you put all the PCTA extras in the "right" and all the others
in the "wrong." Tsk, tsk, tsk.

You *can* turn it around. You probably think I'm being condescending
again, huh?

What am I "supposed" to "turn around?"

What is IS. Try to live with that...it is all around you.

You are not entirely condescending in that reply. In parts you showed
arrogance in the "we PCTA are right and all you others are wrong"
attitude. Tsk.

No one is required to captitulate to some nebulous myth/ideals that
are all artificial. Try not to enforce such attitudes on others.

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

Now, we need to remain respectful if we want to play.

This isn't "playing." Considering change to government regulations
is really serious business.

The mighty macho morsemen have NOT earned as much "respect"
as they claim they are owed.


And it is a very good thing that the NCTA's and interested others are
not that way, eh?

Actually, we NCTAs were NOT that way.

Eventually, when enough **** is thrown at you for no good reason,
one is going to throw it right back.

PCTAs have been tossing **** about mighty morse for decades,
rationalizing its test existance by very old myths. Some of them
have convinced themselves that they are just so wonderful that
their word is that of radio gods.

After a while that gets very tiring. Try about four decades of it
and you will get a mental picture for yourself.

It gets worse when someone, anyone, tries to argue rationally
with those PCTA gods of radio. They are above argument but they
are not beneath tossing more and more **** on the persons who
are trying to argue rationally.

If you feel so outraged, then, by all means, petition the FCC to change
the name of the ARS to the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Very little outrages me. I think that may be your game, not mine.

I sense you have some rage there someplace. You've been slightly
brainwashed by league propaganda and want to follow the party line.
Then you discover that there's lots of folks who aren't so brainwashed
and you don't like it (for whatever reason).

Don't go into too much rationalized denial there. It's a common thing
among relatively new hams.

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

My "motive" in here is to advocate the removal of the code test for
any radio operator license.

I'd be more inclined to call it your rationale. Respectfully submitted
that you may have other motives.

I have no other "motives" in here.

That you want to "charge" me with something is an indication that
you wish to misdirect the flow of the subject into something else.

If you must question "motives," then question all those who demand
to keep the code test long after it has served any purpose.

I observe motives, not question them. Have whatever motive you might
like.

You imagine other motives rather than "observe" them.

I've stated my advocacy in here many times, yet so many have
to invent "other' motives. "They can't handle the truth!" :-)


The U.S. government hasn't "slacked off" on morse code testing since
WRC-03. Test Element 1 is still a test requirement.

yes

Then nothing has changed on the code test.

My last "operating involvement" with HF radio came earlier this year.

I used a small (some say "tiny") 20 W SSB HF transceiver that
many radio amateurs have purchased for themselves. I was not
operating in any amateur bands.

Was that one of the MFJ units? Did it work well? I've looked at them,
and thought they might be nice for traveling with. Small, and
inexpensive enough that I wouldn't have to worry about damage to it, as
I might my main transceiver.

NOT an "MFJ unit." I was designed and is made by SGC (Stoner
Goral Company) in Belleview, WA. Model number is 2020.

Search for "SGC" and you will get their website. You can also see a
nice review of it on Antennex (www.antennex.com) by Richard Morrow,
one of the regular contributers there. More pictures, too.

The 2020 is sold to anyone who cares to buy it. [not cheap] SGC's
market is probably divided between boat owners and hams plus
some non-hams for land use.

SGC also has some nice automatic antenna tuners. (4 models?)

Radio amateurs whose only exposure to "radio" is in amateurdom
will want to ridicule and denigrate non-amateur radio operation. That's
a psychological survival trait to overcome their own ignorance and
lack of experience.

I always try not to ridicule people. My folks taught me better. Or
tried to! ;^)

That's a good trait and you get a high-five for that. Pity that some
other folks' kids weren't taught better.


In this environment such is wasted effort.

Not really. I am an insatiable collector of such stories. And most
people are happy to share. some seem surprised because many new Hams
don't care about hearing about past exploits of others.

The "happiness" in sharing goes away after a number of those
"untrained" others want to pee in the puddle...because they LIKE
to do that sort of thing. [not unlike hecklers in cabaret stage shows]


I enjoy "non ARS" stories too. We have an Old timer in the local club
that had a career as an Engineer at a television station. Lots of good
stories about the stuff that went on there. He was happy to talk, and I
was happy to listen.

According to a strident minority in here, non-ham experiences are
verboten, forbidden, shouted down, etc., etc. Take it up with them.


When I came here there was name calling. There still is name calling.
Maybe its a chicken and egg sort of thing. I don't know when it started,
or who started it. I'm not all that concerned about who started it
either. There's always time to start over.

It started when the newsgroup was first formed...to take on the "code
test" issue that was getting out of hand in rec.radio.amateur.miscellaneous.

The Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society would have NO talk against
removing any morse code test, anywhere, anytime. They let all the
heretics (the ones wanting freedom of entry) KNOW it in no uncertain
words.


It is a broad brush you paint with.

Broad brushes are necessary when the graffitti is spread so far
and wide.


The question (in my opinion) that should be surfacing is: Why is
there such a prolonged talk about "how good and noble" are the
PCTA extras and "how band and wrong" are the NCTA?

That question might be honed to include the personalities involved.

Did that. Denial on their part.


The morse code test has long since outlived its
usefulness. There is NO validity in keeping it around just because
some middle-aged wannabes had to do it over 30 years ago. None
at all.

If it goes away, I won't lose a moments sleep over it.

The morse code test is an excellent reference point for braggadoccio
by those who passed it. They can then rightfully claim they did
"more" than newcomers did...and by extension the newcomers are
"dumbed down" by demonstration because they didn't have to take
a test. There's really no end of rationalizing the olde-tymers' self-
proclaimed superiority.

Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 9/23/2004 11:57 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?

That is simply incorrect. I have and still do disagree with what Steve
sometimes posts, and I have noted it to him. Jim has also, on more
occasions than me. We do not support or condone their actions.

What the issue is is that I (and presumably Jim) do not go after people

in the manner that you want us to. It isn't my style, and I won't change
it to suit you.

Now you've done it, Mike...

You'll now be "Mikie" amd what ever other diminutives he can create.

Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.


Sarcasm doesn't work well in print.

It starts with using your last name like that, even though you continue to
address him civilly and by "Len".

No one is "oppressing" me.

BINGO! You post as you se fit.

Lennie is not "oppressed"...He's OPPRESIVE.

I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

And in the end, accomplish very little. That test is likely to go away
in spite of your antagonism.

Exactly.

And when the Code test is officially defunct, he'll be in here
antagonizing over some other non-issue issue.

I simply point out the "error of their ways" (a metaphor) and illustrate
how mythical their fraternal-order rules are...rules kept long, long
after their validity has expired.

And of course your method doesn't work very well for changing anyone's
mind. But it works perfectly if you want to engage in some nose tweaking
for the sheer joy of irritating someone.

Of course everyone else is in "error", and only Lennie, the rear area
radio clerk in the 50's ex radio technician can see the REAL truth...

Not.

If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.


Irrelevant reasons.

The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

So what?

Lennie continues to confuse AMATEUR RADIO for other services.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No test at all is needed

And again proof that he confuses AMATEUR RADIO for those other, limited
scope/specific purpose radio services.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required for any
military personnel operating military radios below 30 MHz.

I suspect no test is needed, beyond training to operate the equipment.
Could be wrong.

A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

A "radio service" that was specifically designed to prosecute war. Not
engage the citizens of other nations in conversation.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times? It most certainly is. Has been for a long time.

No, I can't. Unless you are saying you want no testing at all for HF
access, your argument is only half formed. If you ARE saying you want no
testing for the Amateur Radio service, Well, I *most* respectfully disagree!

I can't believe that Lennie has the gumption to say how antiquated Amateur
testing is when he's never TAKEN an Amateur test to be able to judge them by.

"Bad" in that it lags far beyond the state of the radio art...supported
only by the radio designers and manufacturers using developments
from the rest of radio to modernize amateur transceivers so that they
can best "work" on-off keyed carriers a la the 1920s.

State of radio art would not pe permitted in the ARS.

Yet another silly assertion by one who has no PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE in
Amateur Radio from which to make an INFORMED opinion.

That is a given. You must support your klan.

I do hope you use fitted sheets.

I there could be any uglier reference than to the Ku Klux Klan, I don;'t
know what it could be...Of course there's the Nazi Party, but then Lennie
usually reserves that one for me.

At least the NCTA and interested others don't call anyone names! ;^)

Poor PCTA...they think the slightest negativism on their mythical
championship of morsemanhood is a "personal insult."

hmmm, then why do you think that I should condemn Steve so badly? He is

doing nothing that you do not do.

Null.

"Negativism".

Lennie has a unique way of minimalizing his OWN insults.

And WHY does he have to even employ "negativism"...?!?! Hundreds of
tousands of people engage in Amateur Radio every day WITHOUT Morse Code and
don't ahve a single negative word to say about it...

I think it's becsue he doesn't have a clue as to what he's talking about.

PCTA simply refuses to acknowledge that the world has advanced
and that amateur radio can no longer by "qualified" by radiotelegraphy
skill demonstrations. PCTA wound far too easily.

Respectfully disagree. You make the statement, please provide the
proof.

It's too easy to DISprove his assertion, Mike.

Tune the bottom end of the HF bands on any given day.

For most folks, that rule-by-intimidation isn't comfortable, isn't
open, certainly isn't conducive (in any way) to discussion...the
intimidation consists mostly of diss and cuss at non-morse folks,
zero discussion.

hmmm, I don't see it that way at all. Well, everyone is entitled to
their opinion.

NOT in here, according to the little clique of PCTA "regulars."

ALL must do as they had to do...or be silent. "They rule."

Proven wrong every time you post. I find it hard to understand why you
keep saying that sort of thing, when it obviously isn't the case.

Being an idiot helps. Being arrogant perpetuates it.

They try to enforce their rule by any means possible, usually that of
the personal insult against anyone differing from their exhalted
opinion. Tsk.

Anyone that would be intimidated by *that* should probably avoid
Netnews! 8^)

Not conducive to a hobby activity. More conducive to a dictatorship.

Not been my experience as a Ham. You see bad, and declare that all is
bad. I see bad, and continue looking until I find the good. It is there.

I have to look REEEEEEEAL hard to see ANY "bad" in Amateur Radio.

Most of it, unfortunately, seems to be on the Left Coast. The 147.435MHz
repeater comes to mind. Richard Burton is another.

But then California seems to lend itself to that sort of childish
behaviour.

You *can* turn it around. You probably think I'm being condescending
again, huh?

Nope. Just polite clarity of thought and expression.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: (William)
Date: 9/23/2004 8:25 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: (William)
Date: 9/22/2004 5:00 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Hans, it warms the heart to see someone other than Len saying those
things.

I don't know why.

Because it validates what Len has said for years. That's why.

It doesn't "validate" anything, Brian.

Yes, it does.

It's Hans' opinion, and nothing more.

And the more folks that have this opinion the greater the validation.

See how it works?

See how WHAT works?

That Hans doesn't like me? Oooooooh.....I am soooooo hurt.

Hans has proven himself to chastise and demean others about one form of
conduct and then steps right on out and does it himself.

You think the opinion of someone who can't march to his own tune is
problematic to me?

I don't.

More than one person (meaning: other than me) has called Hans "Len
with a
License".

I've never seen that. Not once.

Then you've not been paying attention, but that seems to be an
on-going problem with you.

Not at all, and yet I still have never seen it, thus no validation for
your claims.

And Lennie is still a liar

Pants on fiar...

No doubt. And no doubt the never endings there long since lost
thier ability to sense danger.

"thier"

Hi, hi!

If my misuse of one word out of thousands is your only "defense", your
"position" is even weaker than I assumed.

and you still publically admire him

For all to see.

Yep. Fool that you are.

and condone
his conduct.

I've never witnessed Len threatening to throw bricks through windows,
slash tires, or terrorize anyone's wife.

I've never done it either, Brian. So what's your point.

You create little twisted scenarios where you imagine that other
people will do these evil things that you wish will happen to Len and
his loved ones. You don't know these other people with evil intent,
but you know that they are thinking evil thoughts about Len. Strange
how you can know that. Very, very strange.

Sorry, Brian...It happens all the time. Pehaps if you actually did have
some training, education or other experience in evaluating human nature and
conduct, it wouldn't come as such a surprise to you.

Or if you read the news once in a while...

One of the events that inspired that actually occured only a few miles
from where Lennie lives. A few years ago a man spent a lot of time trying to
demand changes to local zoning laws for his own benefit. He spent a great deal
of his own time and money to "prove" why he was right and everyone else was
wrong. Finally someone got tired of his outrageous allegations and demands and
took it upon themselves to induce him to stop.

Whatta work of art you are.

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

Or threaten to "Dial" a person into custody.

You'd deserve it, Brian.

You said that you were "dialing," and you say that I deserve it.

Why didn't anyone show up at my door?

I think you lied when you said that you were "dialing."

Did you call the authorities or did you lie about it?

Not every contact with Human Services generates an investigative contact,
Brian.

Ask them.

Sometimes it's just a note in a file. Then eventually enough notes wind
up in that file that when some other intervention becomes necessary, there is
"background" from which to proceed.

Why are you worried about it..?!?! If your conduct is as you claim it is,
then it's just a piece of paper in a dusty file.

If it's NOT as you claim...well...then...

You certainly need the help and
observation.

I'm good.

No. You're not. You're overtly evasive and mistruthful on a wide range
of topics. If you did the things you claim then why are you not willing to
prove them?

You're not.

Still waiting on your presentation of credentials upon which you base that
assessment, Brian.

Start "dialing." We'll see who they pick up.

Uh huh.

Or accuse or insinuate that another was a pedophile.

Is it true? Are you? Can you prove you're not?

And you claim to have never made such an insinuation.

Liar.

Hardly.

You said I insinuated that you were a pedophile.

I asked you if you were or if it was true.

Is it?

You seem to be awfully preoccupied with it, even defensive.

Are you hiding something? You seem very anxious about it.

Peas in the pod.

Green Giant

I am sure you think so.

So?

So, indeed.

Steve, K4YZ

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:

I always try not to ridicule people. My folks taught me better. Or
tried to! ;^)


That's a good trait and you get a high-five for that. Pity that some
other folks' kids weren't taught better.


I'm going on a vacation for a bit, so won't be able to reply for a few
days.

But let us note this. We have been carrying on for some (weeks?) now,
you and I, and despite our obvious disagreements, have managed to
maintain a fairly civil conversation. I don't know what that means,
aside from the fact that it can be done! 8^)

Have fun while I'm away - I'm not ignoring you, just not at a computer!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Jimmie chastise nursie? Har!
The castisement is a very gentle slap on the wrist with a wet noodle.

"Naughty boy, Steve, mustn't say such bad words!" will sum it up.

What would Len have us do, Mike?

It is hard to control what Jim posts.

Not for me!

It would be a lot easier if you were the moderator.

I'm not the "moderator" in here. This is an open forum.

But Len wants to be the moderator. He seems to want to squelch all
opposition to his opinions.

Problem is, a few do NOT want that...they want a cozy little chat
room filled only with their own kine. They are the ones polluting.

Len projects his own actions unto others.

In my 7 years of reading rrap, I have seen only *one* case where
someone literally told someone else to "shut up". That was when Len
told K8MN to

"shut up, you little USMC feldwebel"

October 2003, I think.

(If there are more, I missed them - some posters here are so verbose
it's just not practical to read everything they write).

I couldn't agree more!

Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?

That is simply incorrect. I have and still do disagree with what Steve
sometimes posts, and I have noted it to him. Jim has also, on more
occasions than me. We do not support or condone their actions.

What the issue is is that I (and presumably Jim) do not go after people
in the manner that you want us to. It isn't my style, and I won't change
it to suit you.

Nor will I.

Perhaps that is the real issue with Len. I think you hit on it some
posts back, Mike. The Len/Brian/Steve troika must get some kind of
return for all the name calling and insults. But that's obviously not
enough for Len, so he tries to get a similar setup going with you. It
would probably make him happy if you started calling him names,
insulting him personally, etc., because then he could return it in
kind and then some.

But instead you just keep on being mild-mannered Mike, not backing
down but not returning in kind, either. You won't play his game or get
down to his level.

Nor will I. Heck, I can't remember all the names Len has invented for
me to avoid calling me "Jim" or "N2EY". Let's see....there's "Jimmie"
(note the feminized ending), "Jimmie Who", "Rev. Jim", "negative j",
"Miccolis", etc.

What purpose does all that serve?

Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.

I like Morse Code. In fact I probably *love* Morse Code. But the above
is just not correct.

They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship.

Wrong again!

It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

Note the equation of "reason" with "agree with Len".

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.

Me neither.

Yet you've bought into the morsemanship-is-all ethos and condone
the polluters.

Not true at all.

Please don't try to use political spin on what you've posted. You
aren't in the political pro leagues yet...they've had centuries to
perfect spin and are good at it.

hehe, political spin usually takes more than a one sentence paragraph.

That's why Len's posts are so long...

Governments (and all newsgroupies) should obey Them (the
PCTA that is) simply because the PCTA are.

that would be bad if these folk are oppressing you. But as the
(probably) most prolific poster here, how can that be?

Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.

Sarcasm doesn't work well in print.

No one is "oppressing" me.

BINGO! You post as you se fit.

Yet Len tells others here to shut up - literally, as in the
"feldwebel" post, and in other ways as well.

I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

Without ever telling us why.

And in the end, accomplish very little. That test is likely to go away
in spite of your antagonism

PCTA clearly wish to oppress those against the code test (evident
from their public statements) by intimidation,

How are a bunch of radio geeks going to intimidate me?

personal insults,

That one is a null. Plenty of that to go around on all sides.
or
whatever means they can use...which includes considerable fantasy
and wild imaginations on their parts.

Also a null. Plenty of that to go around on all sides.

Exactly.

I simply point out the "error of their ways" (a metaphor) and illustrate
how mythical their fraternal-order rules are...rules kept long, long
after their validity has expired.

And of course your method doesn't work very well for changing anyone's
mind. But it works perfectly if you want to engage in some nose tweaking
for the sheer joy of irritating someone.

Which says it all, really.

If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.

Irrelevant reasons.

Says who?

The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

So what?

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No test at all is needed

Those are other radio services, not amateur radio.

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required for any
military personnel operating military radios below 30 MHz.


I suspect no test is needed, beyond training to operate the equipment.
Could be wrong.

Amateur radio is different from those other services. For example,
we're allowed to design/build/repair/align and operate our stations
without any certification or other "type approval" rules. We aren't
limited to predefined channels or spot frequencies, except on 60
meters. We have a large selection of modes and techniques available,
with very few regulations hindering them.

A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

Here we see a typical example of Len-distortion.

He's obviously talking about his time at ADA.

Now - did the US Army not use any morse code after 1952?
How about the US Navy? COast Guard? Air Force? Marines?

Citizens Band Radio Service operating below 30 MHz became legal
in 1958 in the USA, absolutely no morsemanship test involved. Not
only that, CB became licenseless a few years later. [1958 is 46 years
ago, back when nearly all radios still used vacuum tubes]

More distortions.

27 MHz cb was and is limited to low power using only approved
equipment on a set of channels all close in frequency. No transmitter
adjustments at all except channel selection. No homebrewing allowed,
no modifications to equipment allowed. And the license requirement was
dropped in the 1970s, almost 20 years after the 27 MHz channels were
authorized.

Most important of all, cb is hardly the example amateur radio should
follow.

No test at all is required for Citizen' band radio.

Perhaps Len wants *all* amateur radio tests eliminated.

A half century ago, teleprinters were operating at continuous through-
put of 60 WPM. A decade later that was 100 WPM and FSK band-
width was decreased by half of that at 60 WPM. When solid-state
electronics became more prevalent, teleprinter started to become
known as "data" with sustained rates of 300 WPM, then 1200 WPM,
then 4800, 9600, and finally, 56K WPM...whether by wire or radio.

"Teleprinters" (which we hams call "RTTY machines" were large, heavy,
noisy and very expensive. Most hams could not afford to buy them and
their related equipment new. Some hams had machines through surplus
and MARS channels, but until the PC era, RTTY modes were pretty much a
limited specialty in ham radio.

Do you think Len ever bought a new teleprinter for hobby use with his
own money?

A half century ago, television in the USA was beginning to standardize
on color video transmission, then adding stereophonic audio (some time
after audio-only FM stereophonic transmission was standard). In time
analog video-audio gave way to improved picture-and-sound digital TV
with more information in the same EM bandwidth. International satellite
relay of communications was an accomplished fact four decades ago
and now all the "equatorial" comm sat orbital spots are filled. No
dependence on the vagaries of the ionosphere to do international
communications.

And no use of HF. All of amateur VHF/UHF has been available without a
code test since 1991.

GPSS has been with the world (along with GLONASS) for two decades
and with civilian users for over a decade, yielding precise terrestrial
location determination AND precise time...all over radio. Radio clocks
are available at consumer electronics stores for under $30 that update
themselves automatically to precise time from several LF broadcast
services. No need to tie into wire services or listen on HF for precise
time...the little inexpensive radio clocks offer one-second-per-day
accuracy, along with calendar information without operator assistance.

Should WWV be shut down?

The Internet went public in 1991, 13 years ago, and spread like wild-
fire to all parts of the world. Millions upon millions use the Internet
daily, geographic boundaries seldom a limit, with no disturbance from
the ionosphere affecting HF. It is mass communications worldwide.

And it's not radio.

Has the internet replaced amateur radio?

Cellular telephony, enabled through radio, has become a standard
means of communications for Americans. So much so that one in
three Americans has a cellular telephone subscription...about 100
million using those tiny, low-microwave-radio-range, portable radios
to access the telephone infrastructure.

Not on HF either.

All that while, during a veritable many-quantum-level-jumps in
technology, U.S. amateur radio "qualifications" (test regulations)
have required the morsemanship ability test to authorize operation
below 30 MHz by amateurs. That is still required.

That's a good thing.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times?

Nope.

It most certainly is.

Not at all.

Has been for a long time.

Hams still use Morse Code. Extensively. Therefore, a Morse Code test
is appropriate.

No, i can't. Unless you are saying you want no testing at all for HF
access, your argument is only half formed. If you ARE saying you want no
testing for the Amateur Radio service, Well, I *most* respectfully disagree!

Bingo.

I guess history must be bad, huh?

For U.S. amateur radio in comparison to the rest of the radio
world, it IS "bad."

What is bad about history? What is bad about doing what someone likes
to do?

To use one of Cecil's phrases: "What is wrong with live and let live?"

"Bad" in that it lags far beyond the state of the radio art...supported
only by the radio designers and manufacturers using developments
from the rest of radio to modernize amateur transceivers so that they
can best "work" on-off keyed carriers a la the 1920s.

Ah - so it's not just the Morse Code *test* which Len thinks is bad,
but Morse Code *use* by hams!

State of radio art would not pe permitted in the ARS.

By whom would it be prohibited?

There's only a few PCTA extras in here. But, they are resolute
and quite uncivil in condemnation of all those who do not love,
honor and obey morsemanship. All readers have seen that.

I'm PCTA and an Extra. I respectfully disagree with that statement.

That is a given. You must support your klan.

I do hope you use fitted sheets.

Here we go with the insults....

Note that Len assumes you are a white male, Mike...

At least the NCTA and interested others don't call anyone names! ;^)

Poor PCTA...they think the slightest negativism on their mythical
championship of morsemanhood is a "personal insult."

I think the person who wrote "shut up, you little USMC feldwebel" kind
of disproves that...

hmmm, then why do you think that I should condemn Steve so badly? He is
doing nothing that you do not do.

Null.

PCTA simply refuses to acknowledge that the world has advanced
and that amateur radio can no longer by "qualified" by radiotelegraphy
skill demonstrations. PCTA wound far too easily.

Respectfully disagree. You make the statement, please provide the proof.

"The world has advanced" means "you should not use or enjoy Morse Code
any more".

I guess people who like sailboats, stick-shift cars, horseback riding,
bicycles and a bunch of other pursuits should listen up too...

For most folks, that rule-by-intimidation isn't comfortable, isn't
open, certainly isn't conducive (in any way) to discussion...the
intimidation consists mostly of diss and cuss at non-morse folks,
zero discussion.

hmmm, I don't see it that way at all. Well, everyone is entitled to
their opinion.

NOT in here, according to the little clique of PCTA "regulars."

ALL must do as they had to do...or be silent. "They rule."

Funny - I only recall one person telling another to shut up here...

Proven wrong every time you post. I find it hard to understand why you
keep saying that sort of thing, when it obviously isn't the case.

The shrinks call it "projection", Mike.

They try to enforce their rule by any means possible, usually that of
the personal insult against anyone differing from their exhalted
opinion. Tsk.

Anyone that would be intimidated by *that* should probably avoid
Netnews! 8^)

Not conducive to a hobby activity. More conducive to a dictatorship.

Not been my experience as a Ham. You see bad, and declare that all is
bad. I see bad, and continue looking until I find the good. It is there.
You *can* turn it around. You probably think I'm being condescending
again, huh?


Nope - just honest.

Well said, Mike.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(Mother Superior) writes:

Mike Coslo wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Jimmie chastise nursie? Har!
The castisement is a very gentle slap on the wrist with a wet
noodle.

"Naughty boy, Steve, mustn't say such bad words!" will sum it up.

What would Len have us do, Mike?

Be "stand-up guys." So far, the "stand-up" looks like a Comedy Club
audition...

It is hard to control what Jim posts.

Not for me!

As Jimmie does, so should the world...

It would be a lot easier if you were the moderator.

I'm not the "moderator" in here. This is an open forum.

But Len wants to be the moderator. He seems to want to squelch all
opposition to his opinions.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

WRONG.

INCORRECT.

IN ERROR.

FAULTY!

tsk


Problem is, a few do NOT want that...they want a cozy little chat
room filled only with their own kine. They are the ones polluting.

Len projects his own actions unto others.

I've projected slides, 8mm and 16mm movie film, opaque graphics,
and video.

None of those depicted me "in action." :-)

In my 7 years of reading rrap, I have seen only *one* case where
someone literally told someone else to "shut up". That was when Len
told K8MN to

"shut up, you little USMC feldwebel"

Oh, HORRORS! The calamity of such terrible, terrible activity!

Why, that obvious low-life should be taken out and shot for
DARING to speak up to mighty Lords of Radio!

:-)

October 2003, I think.

You think.

(If there are more, I missed them - some posters here are so verbose
it's just not practical to read everything they write).

Tsk. So revolting! Lord Gods of Radio should not stoop so low!

I couldn't agree more!

Then why do you support and condone their actions by saying
nothing against their egregious conduct?

That is simply incorrect. I have and still do disagree with what Steve
sometimes posts, and I have noted it to him. Jim has also, on more
occasions than me. We do not support or condone their actions.

What the issue is is that I (and presumably Jim) do not go after people
in the manner that you want us to. It isn't my style, and I won't change
it to suit you.

Nor will I.

Far be it for a mother superior to drag herself down to the scum-
sucking bottom-feeding mundane real people... :-)

Perhaps that is the real issue with Len. I think you hit on it some
posts back, Mike. The Len/Brian/Steve troika must get some kind of
return for all the name calling and insults. But that's obviously not
enough for Len, so he tries to get a similar setup going with you. It
would probably make him happy if you started calling him names,
insulting him personally, etc., because then he could return it in
kind and then some.

Tsk, tsk, and a tut, tut...

Lord High Gods of Radio are ABOVE such plebian pursuits.

THEY don't "do" such things as call anyone names...such as a
cute little Yiddish pejorative for "penis head," imply pedophilia
or homosexuality, nor (lately) imply any opposition is "guilty" of
spousal abuse. PCTA extras just don't DO such things, do they?

Of course not. The PCTA is way, way above such things, free
and open on everything...provided it all agrees with their view of
reality (distorted as it is).

But instead you just keep on being mild-mannered Mike, not backing
down but not returning in kind, either. You won't play his game or get
down to his level.

Tsk. "Down to 'his' level." :-)

Nor will I. Heck, I can't remember all the names Len has invented for
me to avoid calling me "Jim" or "N2EY". Let's see....there's "Jimmie"
(note the feminized ending), "Jimmie Who", "Rev. Jim", "negative j",
"Miccolis", etc.

Poor baby. Feel hurt do you? Tsk.

What purpose does all that serve?

:-)

Since the PCTA first had their hobby-orgasm over a code key.

I like Morse Code. In fact I probably *love* Morse Code. But the above
is just not correct.

Well, you go right ahead and just have a ball with morsemanship.

If that makes you feel oh-so-very superior, go for it.

Now explain why all YOUR personal favorite things MUST be the
standard for all to follow in the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society?

All you've implied so far is that all those that do not "love" your
favorite activities are so far beneath you that you almost have no
contempt of them...

They think that all radio communications revolves around morse
code and morsemanship.

Wrong again!

Yes, "wrong." The strident Lord High Gods of Radio(telegraphy) get on
computers and spew contempt for all those that do not believe in Them
or Their Wishes.

Sigh.

It hasn't been so for decades, but
they are Believers and will not listen to reason.

Note the equation of "reason" with "agree with Len".

Tsk, tsk, tsk. :-)

But I'm PCTA and aren't anywhere close to that.

Me neither.

Tsk. How could anyone possibly believe you to be far-to-the-left,
meter needle pinned and wrapped around the stop post, could be
anything but "fair?"

Someone should put a stop to such heretical thoughts...such as
the threat to use their "professional standing" to pick up a phone
and have the authorities come and cart away the doubters. :-)

Yet you've bought into the morsemanship-is-all ethos and condone
the polluters.

Not true at all.

Absolutely not! Tsk, tsk. Lord High Gods of Radio(telegraphy) along
with mother superiors are THE world. THEY determine what is "right"
and "wrong," not the ordinary mundane mortals of the citizenry being
so lowly/wrong for having independent thought. Tsk, again.

Please don't try to use political spin on what you've posted. You
aren't in the political pro leagues yet...they've had centuries to
perfect spin and are good at it.

hehe, political spin usually takes more than a one sentence paragraph.

That's why Len's posts are so long...

Yours is longer than everyone's... :-)

Governments (and all newsgroupies) should obey Them (the
PCTA that is) simply because the PCTA are.

that would be bad if these folk are oppressing you. But as the
(probably) most prolific poster here, how can that be?

Tsk. You fail to understand simple sarcasm, Coslo.

Sarcasm doesn't work well in print.

No one is "oppressing" me.

BINGO! You post as you se fit.

Yet Len tells others here to shut up - literally, as in the
"feldwebel" post, and in other ways as well.

Poor baby. Tell a snarly nasty arrogant Lord High God of Radio to
"shut up?"

Oh, my...capital offense! Death to the Unbelievers!

I'm simply persistent and confrontational on the issue of keeping a
morse code test for any radio license in this new millennium.

Without ever telling us why.

Of course "no other reasons ALREADY posted" are sufficient for the
Lord High Gods of Radio(telegraphy). :-)

THEY have decreed that radiotelegraphy is the ne plus ultra, the
Ultima Thule of the amateur radio arts. All who disbelieve "must
prove" the Lord High Gods wrong... :-)


And of course your method doesn't work very well for changing anyone's
mind. But it works perfectly if you want to engage in some nose tweaking
for the sheer joy of irritating someone.

Which says it all, really.

Tsk. The "Tycho Brahe" of the newsgroup need a new nose?

* Tycho Brahe was a north European astrologer-astronomer who wore
a brass nose to cover up loss of nose due to infection during childhood.
The crater Tycho on the Moon is named for him.

If the PCTA feel it so necessary to make all ham radio newcomers
learn morse to get a license, they should petition the FCC to rename
the ARS to what suits them - Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Does knowing Morse code eliminate other forms of communication,
including modern ones? Old technology and new technology can coexist
with each other.

Irrelevant reasons.

Says who?

Says me. [did you think someone else wrote my post? :-) ]

The morse code test continues on in U.S. amateur radio regulations,
absolutely required for any authorized amateur radio transmissions
below 30 MHz.

So what?

No morse code test passing-for-authorization is required of any small
boat owner, pilot, land mobile radio operator, broadcaster, etc.,etc.,
etc. operating below 30 MHz.

No test at all is needed

Those are other radio services, not amateur radio.

Yes. Shun the "others." Those "others" never apply to saintly, noble
Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society ethos and mores.

The Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society is the only living museum of
ancient skills of the "pioneers" of radio, overly-proud, the few good
men of the corps(e) that once was.

Amateur radio is different from those other services. For example,
we're allowed to design/build/repair/align and operate our stations
without any certification or other "type approval" rules. We aren't
limited to predefined channels or spot frequencies, except on 60
meters. We have a large selection of modes and techniques available,
with very few regulations hindering them.

Tsk. If Spark wasn't outlawed, the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society
would stil be using spark methods and have a long parchment roll
of rationalizations to do so... :-)

A half century ago there was NO requirement that military personnel
had to test for morsemanship to operate high-power HF transmitters
using then-state-of-the-art communications techniques. All us
signmalmen "got the message through" (familiar phrase of the Army
Signal Corps).

Here we see a typical example of Len-distortion.

Poor baby. Never served, did you? Never were involved in any military
communications...or even government communications, were you?

What have you to "judge" on all that? Three decades of being an
amateur, a hobbyist, a dilletante in radiotelegraphy?

He's obviously talking about his time at ADA.

Tsk. That only BEGAN my HF radio experience...a half century
ago. My radio communications experience has continued ever
since through many locations, many parts of the EM spectrum.

More tsk. For one who tried to be a hip mother superior with
the distorted quote of "It ain't braggin' if ya done it," you are
certainly the hypocrite.

You fail to see that I did it and am not bragging about it.

But, since you didn't, you have to denigrate it to remain a
mother superior.

Now - did the US Army not use any morse code after 1952?
How about the US Navy? COast Guard? Air Force? Marines?

How can the mother superior judge? Were you involved in any
of those military communications activities?

Tsk. You've not claimed anything in that regard.

Citizens Band Radio Service operating below 30 MHz became legal
in 1958 in the USA, absolutely no morsemanship test involved. Not
only that, CB became licenseless a few years later. [1958 is 46 years
ago, back when nearly all radios still used vacuum tubes]

More distortions.

Just like the FCC is a "distortion." :-)

FCC began Class D Citizens Band Radio Service in 1958. There was
NEVER any test involved in geting the first licenses for Class D CB.

27 MHz cb was and is limited to low power using only approved
equipment on a set of channels all close in frequency. No transmitter
adjustments at all except channel selection. No homebrewing allowed,
no modifications to equipment allowed. And the license requirement was
dropped in the 1970s, almost 20 years after the 27 MHz channels were
authorized.

And now there are millions of CB radios being used every day. :-)

Mothers superior don't want to acknowledge any of that...it is
below them. :-)

Most important of all, cb is hardly the example amateur radio should
follow.

No one said it should. :-)

Feel free to manufacture all the false motives you wish...you've already
done that "countless times." :-)

CB transmits on the ancient, once-upon-a-time amateur 11m band.
That band is located within the HF spectrum. No morse code test
is required to prove "qualifications" to transmit in that HF band. :-)


No test at all is required for Citizen' band radio.

Perhaps Len wants *all* amateur radio tests eliminated.

Tsk, tsk. More FALSE and MISLEADING manufactured "motive."

Poor baby...if you check back through DejaNews or Google archives
you will find that I've advocated larger, harder written tests for U.S.
amateur radio. I've also advocated having the VEC QPC use a far
larger than 10-minimum-questions in the QPC.

As Hans likes to say, "Sunnuvagun!"

"Teleprinters" (which we hams call "RTTY machines" were large, heavy,
noisy and very expensive. Most hams could not afford to buy them and
their related equipment new. Some hams had machines through surplus
and MARS channels, but until the PC era, RTTY modes were pretty much a
limited specialty in ham radio.

Do you think Len ever bought a new teleprinter for hobby use with his
own money?

Actually, THREE, but not for radio hobby use. As substitutes for
formerly-expensive TDDs (Telecommunication Devices for the Deaf).
All from Western Union surplus. Helping out retired telephone
workers doing charitable service about two decades ago.

If you wish to call a charitable service a "hobby," feel free.

I know you just love to manufacture falsies in regards to my activities,
so get your production line in order...


GPSS has been with the world (along with GLONASS) for two decades
and with civilian users for over a decade, yielding precise terrestrial
location determination AND precise time...all over radio. Radio clocks
are available at consumer electronics stores for under $30 that update
themselves automatically to precise time from several LF broadcast
services. No need to tie into wire services or listen on HF for
precise
time...the little inexpensive radio clocks offer one-second-per-day
accuracy, along with calendar information without operator assistance.

Should WWV be shut down?

Troll, troll, troll your boat...

My, my, your troll R&D is working overtime. Tsk.

The Internet went public in 1991, 13 years ago, and spread like wild-
fire to all parts of the world. Millions upon millions use the
Internet
daily, geographic boundaries seldom a limit, with no disturbance from
the ionosphere affecting HF. It is mass communications worldwide.

And it's not radio.

WRONG. It's "radio" if it has a wireless link. :-)

Has the internet replaced amateur radio?

Some of it. Mother superior is in here writing long epistles of ancient
times...instead of operating all those ham thingies... :-)

Cellular telephony, enabled through radio, has become a standard
means of communications for Americans. So much so that one in
three Americans has a cellular telephone subscription...about 100
million using those tiny, low-microwave-radio-range, portable radios
to access the telephone infrastructure.

Not on HF either.

HF too limited for mass communications of millions of two-way
communications users.

Do you wish all 100 million cell phone users to take a morse code
test to "prove their dedication and committment to radio?" :-)

All that while, during a veritable many-quantum-level-jumps in
technology, U.S. amateur radio "qualifications" (test regulations)
have required the morsemanship ability test to authorize operation
below 30 MHz by amateurs. That is still required.

That's a good thing.

INCORRECT.

PROVE YOUR WORK.

Can you say that U.S. amateur radio regulations (and testing) is
behind the times?

Nope.

YUP. You've still not changed the ARS name to Archaic Radiotelegraphy
Society...

It most certainly is.

Not at all.

Tsk, tsk. This year is 2004, not 1934. :-)

Hams still use Morse Code. Extensively. Therefore, a Morse Code test
is appropriate.

WRONG.

ERROR.

FAILURE.

What is bad about history? What is bad about doing what someone likes
to do?

Tsk. Why do you wish to force all amateur newcomers to do as you
did long ago?

Why are you so important that all must follow your example?

Tsk, tsk. If morse code use is "so much fun," then its use will
continue on its own sake...NO morse code test is necessary.
As Cecil Moore used to say in here "What's wrong with live and let
live?" [Cecil is a NCTA]

The World Radio Conference of 2003 agreed and dropped the
international administrative requirement for morse code tests of all
amateur radio licenses having operating privileges below 30 MHz.

As Hans likes to say "Sunnuvagun!"

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:

I always try not to ridicule people. My folks taught me better. Or
tried to! ;^)


That's a good trait and you get a high-five for that. Pity that some
other folks' kids weren't taught better.


I'm going on a vacation for a bit, so won't be able to reply for a few
days.

But let us note this. We have been carrying on for some (weeks?) now,
you and I, and despite our obvious disagreements, have managed to
maintain a fairly civil conversation. I don't know what that means,
aside from the fact that it can be done! 8^)

Have fun while I'm away - I'm not ignoring you, just not at a computer!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Give Darkguard my best. 73, bb

William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:

I just read a David Heil post where he thinks you shouldn't suggest
anything.

Then you misread it.

But I can recall post after post after post scolding me for
spending my spare time on RRAP rather than with a code practice
oscillator.

Post after post, huh? I think your memory is a bit dim.

These guys are PCTA, and exhibit the PCTA double-standard at every
opportunity.

You've tried to sell this sway-backed horse of a tale for quite some
time.

Selling it?

Yep. You keep looking for a buyer and no one is buying this one any
more than they're buying your laments of post after post of scolding.

I'm not selling it, I'm showing it.

You might be showing your ass, but you're attempting sell that old nag
of a story.

I own it and I'll trot it out whenever I want.

It is still sway-backed. You're forced to feed and water it until it
dies or until you persuade someone to buy it.

Even sway-backed horses need their exercise, so I trot it out every
once in a while. Don't want the SPCA to come calling.

It isn't trotting. It is limping and I think you're confusing the SPCA
with the PCTA.

Don't like it? Make it go away! Behave differently. Condemn Steve's outrages.

Steve's "outrages"? Surely, you of all people can see that nothing
Steve has written here is any worse than the insults you and
Leonard-the-non-ham have tossed his way.

I guess you think that Len deserves to have his tires slashed and his
wife terrorized?

When exactly were Len's tires slashed? When was it that his wife was
terrorized? While you're at it, how about filling us in on your being
scolded "post after post"?

Dave K8MN