Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

Collins amateur gear was much less expensive than commercial or
military equipment of the same vintage, and more suited to typical
amateur use. Most hams are not going to be using their equipment at
+85 C or -55 C.

Tsk. Not playing the heroic instant Emergency Communicator,
ready for every emergency when the commercial infrastructure fails?

Riiiight...all ham activity happens at "normal room temperature."

Hi hi.

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40? Oh, that's right--you've never participated in
amateur radio emergency communications at all! Have you ever been
anyplace on this planet where the outdoor temperature sat at +85C?

There's also quite a bit of FM in use by hams on 10 meters. Plus FSK
is a form of FM...

"Real" hams use CW to DX on HF. Ho hum.

Ho humbug! You've little idea of what "real" hams do.

Let's take a look at those phrases:

Yes. Go over and over and over and over and over and over them
until you tire out the opposition to your golden words of truth and
beauty (which are never ever wrong). :-)

Let's at least go over them enough times that everyone except you
realizes your errors.

LHA: "All those subbands are simply for "staking out territory." "

That's my opinion and I'm holding to that.

You're simply wrong. Then again, you aren't a ham so perhaps you could
be excused for not knowing. Now that you've been advised, I'd expect
that you'd be sharp enough to keep from sticking with the same erroneous
view.

If you don't like it, TS.

Does that mean you'll cling to a position no matter how wrong you are?

They were actually about creating an incentive to learn more theory
without losing access to a band or mode.

If that's your evaluation, then you are badly in need of something
to relieve your mental constipation.

No problem we can always treat ourselves to another dose of Dr. Len's
newsgroup salts.

LHA: "None of that elaborate U.S. subdivision would be possible
without the modern frequency synthesizers that were NOT developed for
amateur radio but adopted for that particular market."

That's a corollary to my subdivision opinion.

No, that's just you compounding your errors.

Again, if you don't like that opinion, TS for you. :-)

Why dontcha make us all use synthesizers? Did you read up on the phase
noise problem at any of those urls I provided?

Repeatedly proven to be incorrect, in error, and without any basis in
fact. Hams then and now are able to stay within their bands and
subbands without any need for "modern frequency synthesizers".

Oooooooo! "repeatedly 'proven' to be incorrect, in error and without
any basis in fact! Ooooooo. Tsk, tsk. :-)

An "Ooooooo" and a "Tsk, tsk" aren't much of a defense, are they?

Geez, better get an Exorcist, you are going to proclaim me the
AntiChrist next. :-)

I'd expect the Antichrist to have his ducks in a row.

It is not clear to whom Len refers as "ivy-decorated in here". If he
is referring to me (Jim, N2EY), he's completely wrong, because I could
explain both PLL and DDS designs at length and in detail.

Riiiiight...you've got lots and lots of industry experience in that,
many products on the market...just like you were in the space
business so long that you could call others "wrong" about having
opinions opposite to your "expertise."

Whaddya know of Jim's industry experience, Leonard?

Neither HF rig in current use at N2EY is expensive or "ready built".
But they work, are on the air regularly, meet FCC regulations, and do
their jobs well.

I suppose next you have Proof of Performance papers, fully
notarized and witnessed, that they are ipsy-pipsy "within spec?"

Hams aren't required to have anything like that. If you don't like
it...

I can explain how they work in detail. I'll even draw you schematics
of the Southgate Type 7 from memory. (It ain't simple, either). Amazes
shack visitors of all ages and levels of technical ability.

Tsk. You've yet to explain that "Southgate Type 7." [other than the
unusual name] Does it appear in ham literature? In Nobel archives?

The name "Southgate" has certainly appeared in ham literature.

Just my particular brand of fun in ham radio.

Trying always to be the Superior in anything is fun for the ego-
driven. Lots of PCTA extras in here (practically all of them) get
their jollies that way.

Only you can read "just my way particular brand of fun in ham radio" and
take it as a statement of ego-driven superiority.

What's wrong with any of that?

Nothing "wrong" with that other than taking over the flow of debate
with your pet fun-and-games and promoting morse well over and
above any valid reasons for keeping the morse code test.

....as compared to your attempting to take over the flow of debate with
your pet fun and games and promoting the abolition of morse code testing
in an endeaver in which you play no part?

But, you consider yourself Superior and therefore "must" triumph
in all things. :-)

Don't you mean "but you've proven me wrong and I just can't abide that"?

The K2 has a single-loop PLL LO that achieves very low phase noise by
an ingenious design. This design intentionally trades off some
accuracy and general coverage reception in order to improve phase
noise, simplicity and power consumption. Its performance against
"ready built" transceivers costing much more is well documented.

Jimmie has a K2. Naturally it is "superior" to all others.

That's funny, I didn't see that written. Do you suppose it is
ego-driven as well?

It wasn't designed by Len. I doubt very much he understands how it
works, nor could he explain it....;-)

Jimmie designed the K2? :-)

Do try and stay with the flow. He said it wasn't designed by you.

Which is to say, none of them are perfect!

Len's errors here prove he's not perfect either...

Heavens...Jimmie wants PERFECTION in all things!

Don't you strive for perfection, Leonard, or are you happy with slapdash
design?

Naturally, PCTA extras are "always perfect" in everything?

I'm sure it seems that way to a guy like yourself.

Of course they are. They will tell you right off... :-)

Actually, telling you off isn't at all unpleasant.

The fact that we amateurs are actually designing, building and using
rigs on the air seems to bother Len no end. The fact that we are using
equipment, modes and technologies he has not personally blessed seems
to bother him even more.

Doesn't bother me a bit. :-)

Not much, it doesn't.

I've still "done" modes, modulations far more than is allowed in the
U.S. ham bands. [that even includes CW, heh heh heh]

Why are you always living in the past?

It's a bit irritating when everyone uses verbatim sales ad phrasing
and OTHERS reviews as Gospel as if they themselves have used
and operated all the equipment they mention.

Not chewing up or spitting out anybody, Dave. Just pointing out a few
errors of Len's. He makes it easy, really.

Isn't it awful? There oughta be a law against anyone having opinions
opposing the PCTA extras!

Your opinions were stated as fact--and they were incorrect.

Recall the original claims that started all of this, and how Len keeps
trying to avoid admitting his mistakes:

"All those subbands are simply for "staking out territory." "

That's my opinion and I'm staying with it.

....and I'm sure it is based in experience and a great deal of solid
research *grin*

"I doubt that even the most ivy-decorated in here could explain how to
make a PLL subsystem that achieves 10 Hz resolution using 10 KHz
references for their PFD. I wouldn't even bother asking them if they
knew how a DDS works... :-)"

Tsk. When I preparing to buy my Icom R-70 at the Van Nuys, CA,
HRO, I asked three hams behind the counter how Icom achieved
10 Hz resolution using a 10 KHz reference to all the phase-frequency
detectors. None of the three knew. Two of those were extras.

Yeah, they're sales types. They aren't engineers.

I got a copy of the Icom User's Manual and figured it out myself.
Looked like it was worth the money. Went back later and bought
one. Cash. It's been working fine ever since.

So, would it have worked fine since if you'd used a credit card?

I'll have to go back to old checkbook transactions to find the
purchase date (one has to be EXACT for Jimmie da Perfectionist).
Needless to say, DDS frequency control subsystems weren't yet
in the offshore-designed-and-made ham transceivers. [this statement
ought to be good for another few weeks of Jimmie "proving me wrong
in all things" :-) ]

For a twenty-something-year-old design, it isn't bad. It does suffer
from the same thing which plagued many Icom transceivers of its day--the
front end folds up in the presence of nearby strong signals.

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

Collins amateur gear was much less expensive than commercial or
military equipment of the same vintage, and more suited to typical
amateur use. Most hams are not going to be using their equipment at
+85 C or -55 C.

Tsk. Not playing the heroic instant Emergency Communicator,
ready for every emergency when the commercial infrastructure fails?

Riiiight...all ham activity happens at "normal room temperature."

Hi hi.

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.

Oh, that's right--you've never participated in
amateur radio emergency communications at all! Have you ever been
anyplace on this planet where the outdoor temperature sat at +85C?

....good question...

There's also quite a bit of FM in use by hams on 10 meters. Plus FSK
is a form of FM...

"Real" hams use CW to DX on HF. Ho hum.

Ho humbug! You've little idea of what "real" hams do.

Let's take a look at those phrases:

Yes. Go over and over and over and over and over and over them
until you tire out the opposition to your golden words of truth and
beauty (which are never ever wrong). :-)

Let's at least go over them enough times that everyone except you
realizes your errors.

LHA: "All those subbands are simply for "staking out territory." "

That's my opinion and I'm holding to that.

You're simply wrong. Then again, you aren't a ham so perhaps you could
be excused for not knowing. Now that you've been advised, I'd expect
that you'd be sharp enough to keep from sticking with the same erroneous
view.

A person can hold any opinion they want. Len's stated opinion in this area is
not based on fact.

If you don't like it, TS.

"Civil discourse" from Len...

Does that mean you'll cling to a position no matter how wrong you are?

Isn't that obvious?

They were actually about creating an incentive to learn more theory
without losing access to a band or mode.

If that's your evaluation, then you are badly in need of something
to relieve your mental constipation.

No problem we can always treat ourselves to another dose of Dr. Len's
newsgroup salts.

Note that Len simply attacks an opposing opinion without any facts to
substantiate his attack.

LHA: "None of that elaborate U.S. subdivision would be possible
without the modern frequency synthesizers that were NOT developed for
amateur radio but adopted for that particular market."

That's a corollary to my subdivision opinion.

No, that's just you compounding your errors.

Again, if you don't like that opinion, TS for you. :-)

Why dontcha make us all use synthesizers? Did you read up on the phase
noise problem at any of those urls I provided?

I think Len would prefer that all of amateur radio be channelized.

Repeatedly proven to be incorrect, in error, and without any basis in
fact. Hams then and now are able to stay within their bands and
subbands without any need for "modern frequency synthesizers".

Oooooooo! "repeatedly 'proven' to be incorrect, in error and without
any basis in fact! Ooooooo. Tsk, tsk. :-)

An "Ooooooo" and a "Tsk, tsk" aren't much of a defense, are they?

Nope.

Geez, better get an Exorcist, you are going to proclaim me the
AntiChrist next. :-)

I'd expect the Antichrist to have his ducks in a row.

It is not clear to whom Len refers as "ivy-decorated in here". If he
is referring to me (Jim, N2EY), he's completely wrong, because I could
explain both PLL and DDS designs at length and in detail.

Riiiiight...you've got lots and lots of industry experience in that,
many products on the market...just like you were in the space
business so long that you could call others "wrong" about having
opinions opposite to your "expertise."

Whaddya know of Jim's industry experience, Leonard?

Neither HF rig in current use at N2EY is expensive or "ready built".
But they work, are on the air regularly, meet FCC regulations, and do
their jobs well.

I suppose next you have Proof of Performance papers, fully
notarized and witnessed, that they are ipsy-pipsy "within spec?"

Hams aren't required to have anything like that. If you don't like
it...

I can explain how they work in detail. I'll even draw you schematics
of the Southgate Type 7 from memory. (It ain't simple, either). Amazes
shack visitors of all ages and levels of technical ability.

Tsk. You've yet to explain that "Southgate Type 7." [other than the
unusual name] Does it appear in ham literature? In Nobel archives?

The name "Southgate" has certainly appeared in ham literature.

Indeed.

Just my particular brand of fun in ham radio.

Trying always to be the Superior in anything is fun for the ego-
driven. Lots of PCTA extras in here (practically all of them) get
their jollies that way.

Only you can read "just my way particular brand of fun in ham radio" and
take it as a statement of ego-driven superiority.

What's wrong with any of that?

Nothing "wrong" with that other than taking over the flow of debate
with your pet fun-and-games and promoting morse well over and
above any valid reasons for keeping the morse code test.

The Morse Code test was not mentioned at all, but Len cannot see any other
issue.

...as compared to your attempting to take over the flow of debate with
your pet fun and games and promoting the abolition of morse code testing
in an endeaver in which you play no part?

But, you consider yourself Superior and therefore "must" triumph
in all things. :-)

Don't you mean "but you've proven me wrong and I just can't abide that"?

bingo!

The K2 has a single-loop PLL LO that achieves very low phase noise by
an ingenious design. This design intentionally trades off some
accuracy and general coverage reception in order to improve phase
noise, simplicity and power consumption. Its performance against
"ready built" transceivers costing much more is well documented.

Jimmie has a K2. Naturally it is "superior" to all others.

That's funny, I didn't see that written. Do you suppose it is
ego-driven as well?

Not by my ego...

It wasn't designed by Len. I doubt very much he understands how it
works, nor could he explain it....;-)

Jimmie designed the K2? :-)

Do try and stay with the flow. He said it wasn't designed by you.

Which is to say, none of them are perfect!

Len's errors here prove he's not perfect either...

Heavens...Jimmie wants PERFECTION in all things!

Don't you strive for perfection, Leonard, or are you happy with slapdash
design?

Naturally, PCTA extras are "always perfect" in everything?

I'm sure it seems that way to a guy like yourself.

Of course they are. They will tell you right off... :-)

Actually, telling you off isn't at all unpleasant.

The fact that we amateurs are actually designing, building and using
rigs on the air seems to bother Len no end. The fact that we are using
equipment, modes and technologies he has not personally blessed seems
to bother him even more.

Doesn't bother me a bit. :-)

Not much, it doesn't.

I've still "done" modes, modulations far more than is allowed in the
U.S. ham bands. [that even includes CW, heh heh heh]

I don't think Len has operated using Morse Code.

Why are you always living in the past?

It's a bit irritating when everyone uses verbatim sales ad phrasing
and OTHERS reviews as Gospel as if they themselves have used
and operated all the equipment they mention.

Well, let's see...

I've operated equipment made by Collins (S-line), Drake (4 line and 2B), Heath
(SB line and various HWs, including HW-101 and -16), EF Johnson (Adventurer,
Viking 2, Valiant), Kenwood (TS-520, TS-820, TS-450, TS-940) Yaesu (FT-101 and
others) Icom (IC-735, IC-751, and a bunch of others), Ten Tec (Argosy, Corsair
2, Omni D and V)....

And a bunch of others I can't recall offhand.

Not chewing up or spitting out anybody, Dave. Just pointing out a few
errors of Len's. He makes it easy, really.

Isn't it awful? There oughta be a law against anyone having opinions
opposing the PCTA extras!

Your opinions were stated as fact--and they were incorrect.

Recall the original claims that started all of this, and how Len keeps
trying to avoid admitting his mistakes:

"All those subbands are simply for "staking out territory." "

That's my opinion and I'm staying with it.

...and I'm sure it is based in experience and a great deal of solid
research *grin*

"I doubt that even the most ivy-decorated in here could explain how to
make a PLL subsystem that achieves 10 Hz resolution using 10 KHz
references for their PFD. I wouldn't even bother asking them if they
knew how a DDS works... :-)"

Tsk. When I preparing to buy my Icom R-70 at the Van Nuys, CA,
HRO, I asked three hams behind the counter how Icom achieved
10 Hz resolution using a 10 KHz reference to all the phase-frequency
detectors. None of the three knew. Two of those were extras.

Yeah, they're sales types. They aren't engineers.

I got a copy of the Icom User's Manual and figured it out myself.
Looked like it was worth the money. Went back later and bought
one. Cash. It's been working fine ever since.

So, would it have worked fine since if you'd used a credit card?

Len walked into a radio store once upon a time and the salespeople couldn't
explain some technical point to his satisfaction. Some of those salespeople
held the Extra class license. Len's conclusion is that people who hold an Extra
class license don't know how radios work.

I'll have to go back to old checkbook transactions to find the
purchase date (one has to be EXACT for Jimmie da Perfectionist).
Needless to say, DDS frequency control subsystems weren't yet
in the offshore-designed-and-made ham transceivers. [this statement
ought to be good for another few weeks of Jimmie "proving me wrong
in all things" :-) ]

For a twenty-something-year-old design, it isn't bad. It does suffer
from the same thing which plagued many Icom transceivers of its day--the
front end folds up in the presence of nearby strong signals.

It also won't transmit....

Of course, what we see here is another classic case of Len's behavior that can
be summed up in one sentence: Do as Len says, not as Len does.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

Collins amateur gear was much less expensive than commercial or
military equipment of the same vintage, and more suited to typical
amateur use. Most hams are not going to be using their equipment at
+85 C or -55 C.

Tsk. Not playing the heroic instant Emergency Communicator,
ready for every emergency when the commercial infrastructure fails?

Riiiight...all ham activity happens at "normal room temperature."

Hi hi.

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

"William" wrote in message
om...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have
your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

Actually that would have to be metrology (the science of measurement) since
temperature is not limited to weather.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have
your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

Actually that would have to be metrology (the science of measurement) since
temperature is not limited to weather.

Wow! A true thing by a morseperson! :-)

I've been testing electronics IN a -55 C environment. Involved in
metrology. Was cold. I didn't stay in the walk-in chamber for
any longer than necessary. :-)

Wasn't degreed or credentialed in metrology at the time. Nobody
else involved in that testing was degreed or credentialed in
metrology. NIST doesn't demand that, either!.

Sunnuvagun!

But...to be super-legal on ham HF one MUST be tested for
morsemanship. Ham radios won't work without that credential?

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have
your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

Actually that would have to be metrology (the science of measurement) since
temperature is not limited to weather.

Wow! A true thing by a morseperson! :-)

Hey, back off!

I've been testing electronics IN a -55 C environment. Involved in
metrology. Was cold. I didn't stay in the walk-in chamber for
any longer than necessary. :-)

CW telemetry always gets through.

Wasn't degreed or credentialed in metrology at the time. Nobody
else involved in that testing was degreed or credentialed in
metrology. NIST doesn't demand that, either!.

Sunnuvagun!

But, but, but... Len. I -need- her to be licensured or credentialed
in metrology whether there's such a thing or not.

I -must- have it.

I DEMAND IT!!!

If SHE doesn't produce licensure in metrology within 24 hours,
Dee will forever be known as a LIAR and a Bag Lady and a Horse Thief!

Because I say so!

;^)

But...to be super-legal on ham HF one MUST be tested for
morsemanship.

Only in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Ham radios won't work without that credential?

Nope - they refuse.

Physics is altogether different.

Haven't you learned that by now? You've been told often enough.

If you don't get that by now I'm going to have to start Dialing...



Strange brew. The things you learn in a ham newsgroup.

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have
your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

Actually that would have to be metrology (the science of measurement) since
temperature is not limited to weather.

Wow! A true thing by a morseperson! :-)

I've been testing electronics IN a -55 C environment. Involved in
metrology. Was cold. I didn't stay in the walk-in chamber for
any longer than necessary. :-)

Wasn't degreed or credentialed in metrology at the time. Nobody
else involved in that testing was degreed or credentialed in
metrology. NIST doesn't demand that, either!.

Damned good thing they don't since you don't have any degrees or credentials.


Sunnuvagun!

But...to be super-legal on ham HF one MUST be tested for
morsemanship. Ham radios won't work without that credential?

Looks like you're slowly gettting it . . .

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...
"William" wrote in message
om...
"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Now, Leonard -40F and -40C occur at roughly the same point. Have
your
ever participated in amateur radio emergency communications outdoors
when the temp was -40?

I've been outdoors working when the temperature was -30 F.


-40C and -40F are not roughly the same point, they are EXACTLY the same
point.

(Celsius * 9/5) + 32 = Fahrenheit
(-40C * 9/5) + 32 = -40F

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Unless any of you can produce licensure or credentials in meteorology
or atmospheric science, I'm going to have to consider your comments
suspect.

;^)

bb

Actually that would have to be metrology (the science of measurement) since
temperature is not limited to weather.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Not limited to weather, however, the context -was- weather. I'll
allow you to slide on this one if you can produce licensure or
credentials in "metrology."

;^)

bb

On 1 Oct 2004 20:05:47 -0700, William wrote:

Not limited to weather, however, the context -was- weather. I'll
allow you to slide on this one if you can produce licensure or
credentials in "metrology."

Any high school graduate who paid attention during the science
classes knows that -40F = -40C without having to calculate it.

Folks have flunked out of first-year engineering and science classes
for less than that.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
(and yes, I do have a degree in
engineering)