Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:38 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

And in ANY case, you STILL don't make a case for your "several Extras
on
RRAP" assertion.

So..............You're STILL shy of some facts here, Brain.

Try again.

The evidence is damning, unless you fold your PCTA blinders directly
over your eyeballs.

No blinders needed, Brain.

You've not even "remotely" made a case for "several Extras on RRAP"
suggesting that NOT having an Extra is a problem, let alone "damning".

You're the Little Piggie making the house out of straw, Brain, and it
takes nothing to knock it over.

TRY AGAIN!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: N2EY Despises Advanced Class Operators::: These EXTRA'S,
Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/21/2004 5:56 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

That was Steve's assumption -and- mistake.

No assumptpn or mistake...

Yhe comments were made about a SPECIFIC "special activities" club that
pretty much requires an Extra for all it's members in order to have the
greatest flexibility and functionality on the air.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

Jim, -you- chimed in with "Well, what IS his problem?" indicating that
you agree with the scorn given a mere Advanced class operator who
wished to contest with like-minded people.

Best of luck.

"Scorn"...?!?!

What "scorn"...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

I wrote a very benign letter to Rich, W2VU at CQ
magazine to try and locate the article that I remembered reading.

Here's why it looks familiar:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ews.com&output
=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

I don't read CQ with any regularity so I don't know if it's in there or not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"My name is Jim and despite being lectured to by numerous 'radio cops' and
'newsgroup cops', I'm still a radio amateur and still online"

It is a good point you make, Jim.

TNX

First time I ever used an autopatch,
a local Ham came on afterward, and let me know about some mistakes I was
making. I thanked him, and we went on our merry ways. Even now, last
weekend, when I was operating in a contest, another Ham came on and
asked if I could move "upwind a bit". I asked him if he had a pref of
how far, he told me, and I moved. We both went on our merry ways.

I've had similar encounters on the air.

Later in the same contest on 20 meters, a Ham (presumably, since he
didn't ID) broke in on a QSO to chastize me for using speech compression
- which I do if I need to.

I asked him if he wanted to make a QSO with
me, and he said "Hell NO, you stupid asshole!"

What's *his* problem? As long as you're not splattering, speech
compression in a contest is a good idea, isn't it? (If you're
splattering, it's a bad idea, period).

I thanked him and noted
that it was good to see there were still gentlemen on the air, and we
both went our merry ways.

bwaahaahaa

Point is that its a big world with all types, and if you are going to
allow one early experience to convince you to call it quits, then you
must have had some interest issues going on.

Maybe.

Lessee, a person studies the writtens, takes the time to learn Morse
code to 13wpm, takes the time and trouble and expense to take the tests.
Then in his first QSO is chastized for using "my first personal is"
instead of "My name is", so they quit?

The person in Hans' story was on a repeater, using an HT. While it's
not stated explicitly, the implication is that the newbie was a
brand-new Tech.

I can only assume Hans is telling the truth, as he seems a pretty
straight shooter to me. I draw a different conclusion tho'. Mr Newbie
Ham was waaaayyy too sensitive, either from embarrassment or ego.

Of course it was a made-up story, as Hans has written.

My take on it is somewhat different.

First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation. That's cb slang, pure and simple, and it has no place in
amateur radio. Period. If somebody wants to talk like that, 27 MHz is
the place, not 2 meters. Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

But on-air lectures aren't the way to stop those things. Better to
simply set an example and ignore the newbie's mistakes unless they are
rules violations. I've had folks tell me their "first personal here is
Bob" and I simply reply "my name is Jim" and on with the conversation.
Pretty soon they get the idea that a one-syllable word that everyone
recognizes is better than four syllables in two words, without any
lectures. Even if they don't pick up on the example, it's not illegal,
just silly.

The second thing about the story that I find odd is that 'Jim" didn't
appear to listen to how hams talk on the air before jumping in. Most
newcomers I've come across at least do that for a short time, getting
the feel for the form of a contact and other practices before talking.
They tend to imitate what they hear, too.

The third thing is that even though the lecturer took great pains to
be nice, 'Jim' was still driven off.

The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody. The paradox is that the
story has the tone of a lecture!

When I started out way back in 1967, ARRL sent me an article called
"Your Novice Accent" that explained in clear terms how-to and
how-not-to. Of course it was aimed at the typical crystal-controlled
CW-using Novice of those days, but the concept was sound.

We cannot control how others talk. The simple attempt to control teh
behavior often reinforces the behavior.

Yep. But that does not mean "anything goes". Which will happen if we
keep *too* quiet.


73 de Jim, N2EY

....who does not say "destinated" either......


OT story: Some time back, a telephone conversation with some service
desk or other resulted in the person on the other end asking for my
"social". I had no idea what she meant, asked her to repeat it a few
times, etc. She actually started to get impatient, as if I were
playing games with here or just being a bit dim.

Finally she said she just needed the last four digits. Finally dawned
on me that what she wanted was my social security number! (It was an
appropriate request for the call). I'd never heard that one before. I
must be getting old....

"N2EY" wrote


First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation.


Nope, nobody I ever heard.

That's cb slang, pure and simple,

Yup, that's where "Jim" learned it.

and it has no place in amateur radio. Period.

Why not? They use borrowed ham slang like "handle" on CB.

Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

Why are they not "good operating practice"? Everyone understands them,
even if "nobody with any sense" uses them in normal conversation.


The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody.


As a KVG fan, I'd have thought you'd be the one person here to see the
moral of the story, because it echos the theme of almost all of his
work, which boils down to "BE NICE, DAMN-IT!"

"Pretend to be good always,
and even God will be fooled."

- God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater

73, de Hans, K0HB

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:


In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:



I wrote a very benign letter to Rich, W2VU at CQ
magazine to try and locate the article that I remembered reading.

Here's why it looks familiar:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ews.com&output
=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...1.deja.com&out
put=gplain

I don't read CQ with any regularity so I don't know if it's in there or not.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"My name is Jim and despite being lectured to by numerous 'radio cops' and
'newsgroup cops', I'm still a radio amateur and still online"

It is a good point you make, Jim.


TNX


First time I ever used an autopatch,
a local Ham came on afterward, and let me know about some mistakes I was
making. I thanked him, and we went on our merry ways. Even now, last
weekend, when I was operating in a contest, another Ham came on and
asked if I could move "upwind a bit". I asked him if he had a pref of
how far, he told me, and I moved. We both went on our merry ways.


I've had similar encounters on the air.


Later in the same contest on 20 meters, a Ham (presumably, since he
didn't ID) broke in on a QSO to chastize me for using speech compression
- which I do if I need to.


I asked him if he wanted to make a QSO with
me, and he said "Hell NO, you stupid asshole!"


What's *his* problem? As long as you're not splattering, speech
compression in a contest is a good idea, isn't it? (If you're
splattering, it's a bad idea, period).


I thanked him and noted
that it was good to see there were still gentlemen on the air, and we
both went our merry ways.


bwaahaahaa


Point is that its a big world with all types, and if you are going to
allow one early experience to convince you to call it quits, then you
must have had some interest issues going on.


Maybe.


Lessee, a person studies the writtens, takes the time to learn Morse
code to 13wpm, takes the time and trouble and expense to take the tests.
Then in his first QSO is chastized for using "my first personal is"
instead of "My name is", so they quit?


The person in Hans' story was on a repeater, using an HT. While it's
not stated explicitly, the implication is that the newbie was a
brand-new Tech.

I can only assume Hans is telling the truth, as he seems a pretty
straight shooter to me. I draw a different conclusion tho'. Mr Newbie
Ham was waaaayyy too sensitive, either from embarrassment or ego.


Of course it was a made-up story, as Hans has written.

Well I was originally tinking that, then I read in the googled up
thread you provided where Hans noted that he was a 13wpm general, and
had applied for a job where Hans worked.

Got Me! multi layered leg pulling!


My take on it is somewhat different.

First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation. That's cb slang, pure and simple, and it has no place in
amateur radio. Period. If somebody wants to talk like that, 27 MHz is
the place, not 2 meters. Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

I use QSL in voice contesting simply because everyone eles is doing it,
but in normal QSO's on HF, I use plain english, except when saying
things like QSL card, which is what it's name is. I do use some of the Q
signals when I type tho'. But my skin crawls when I hear somone say HI HI!


But on-air lectures aren't the way to stop those things. Better to
simply set an example and ignore the newbie's mistakes unless they are
rules violations. I've had folks tell me their "first personal here is
Bob" and I simply reply "my name is Jim" and on with the conversation.
Pretty soon they get the idea that a one-syllable word that everyone
recognizes is better than four syllables in two words, without any
lectures. Even if they don't pick up on the example, it's not illegal,
just silly.

The second thing about the story that I find odd is that 'Jim" didn't
appear to listen to how hams talk on the air before jumping in. Most
newcomers I've come across at least do that for a short time, getting
the feel for the form of a contact and other practices before talking.
They tend to imitate what they hear, too.

The third thing is that even though the lecturer took great pains to
be nice, 'Jim' was still driven off.

The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody. The paradox is that the
story has the tone of a lecture!

When I started out way back in 1967, ARRL sent me an article called
"Your Novice Accent" that explained in clear terms how-to and
how-not-to. Of course it was aimed at the typical crystal-controlled
CW-using Novice of those days, but the concept was sound.


We cannot control how others talk. The simple attempt to control teh
behavior often reinforces the behavior.


Yep. But that does not mean "anything goes". Which will happen if we
keep *too* quiet.


73 de Jim, N2EY

...who does not say "destinated" either......


No one should misunderestimate your strategery, eh?


OT story: Some time back, a telephone conversation with some service
desk or other resulted in the person on the other end asking for my
"social". I had no idea what she meant, asked her to repeat it a few
times, etc. She actually started to get impatient, as if I were
playing games with here or just being a bit dim.

Finally she said she just needed the last four digits. Finally dawned
on me that what she wanted was my social security number! (It was an
appropriate request for the call). I'd never heard that one before. I
must be getting old....

Same thing happened to me. I was purchasing a fitness loft pass at the
University, and the nice young lady asked for my "soch". Fortunately,
she saw that I was an OF, and said "Oh, that means your Social Security
number".

- mike KB3EIA -

In article , Alun
writes:

(N2EY) wrote in
. com:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/20/2004 6:55 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
message
ink.net...
Riley is not a Extra class.

Dan/W4NTI

Quote from several Extra's on RRAP, "So what's his problem?"

Which of "several Extra's", Brain?

There's only a few of us, so it can't be TOO hard to pony up a
quote.

Re-quotes from posts, please? FACTS...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N2EY )
Subject: Excellent ARRL proposal


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Date: 2004-01-25 12:31:04 PST


In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:
go thru to get on the air. There were neighborhood radio clubs
which didn't allow full voting memberships to Novices and Techs .
. .


And in the mid-60s there were still some who did similar things.
Indeed, there were Advanceds who looked down on Generals, Generals
who looked down on Conditionals, Conditionals who looked down on
Techs, and Techs who looked down on Novices. Etc.

And it wasn't just kids vs. adults, either.

Yessir, It's 2004 and it's **still** out there. Guy was up late last
year for the vote on approving his membership application into The
Group (the 43rd & Kingsessing "Group" we're both familair with yes?)

You mean the one where the attendance sheet looks like the DXCC Honor
Roll?

and somebody asked "what license class does he have?" His sponser:
"Uhhh . . Advanced." Then he ducked. Immediate 180dBA noise level
from the Back Benchers, "what the hell is this guy's problem?"

Well, what IS his problem?

That group is heavily focused on DX and contesting - particularly DX
contesting. They're "a bit competitive"....

Anything less than an Extra is a big competitive disadvantage in DX
contesting. Like not being able to work split. So why doesn't the guy
get one? Even if he only works 'phone, all he need do is pass element
4. And he's had almost 4 years.

No, wait, that's not a good reason. Those writtens are really tough.
More than 4 years ago, (Jan 19, 2000, to be exact) a certain verbose
nonham here said he was going for Extra "right out of the box". But
no ham license of any class yet. And this nonham says he's a "radio
PROFESSIONAL"....

Maybe he should apply to The Group. I'd like to attend that
meeting....

Then as now, they were few - but noisy.

Maybe it was different where you were, Dan.

It's all just cycles Dan and the 1968 maneuver was not the first
cycle by any means and welcome to the current cycle. There will
be others.

Circle Game.

Dit-dit!

Still nothing from one of "us"

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras"
in RRAP suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a
problem".

That's right.

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein
some other group of people may have acted stupidly.

That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or
myself, among others, as having said anything close to "what's
his problem" over not being an Extra class licensee.

Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I don't know Jim. I know I guy who is on the DXCC Honor Roll and is only a
General.

Of course. The exception that proves the rule.

I'm an Extra and I don't even have my basic DXCC.

Me neither. I'm not into DXing that much.

I could see the
same might apply to contesting too.

Sure.

The discussion quoted above was about admission to a very serious DX/contest
club. Their standards are high, and their goal is to win. Not having an Extra
is an easily-avoided disadvantage, and that the applicant didn't understand
that was an indication that he didn't really understand what the club is all
about.

Heck, if I applied, they'd probably ask me what logging software I use in
contests. And when I told them I use paper logs, they'd probably say:

"What's *your* problem, Jim?"

73 de Jim, N2EY

Alun wrote in message . ..
(N2EY) wrote in
om:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/20/2004 6:55 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
om...
(William) wrote in message
. com...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in
message
ink.net...
Riley is not a Extra class.

Dan/W4NTI

Quote from several Extra's on RRAP, "So what's his problem?"

Which of "several Extra's", Brain?

There's only a few of us, so it can't be TOO hard to pony up a
quote.

Re-quotes from posts, please? FACTS...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N2EY )
Subject: Excellent ARRL proposal


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
Date: 2004-01-25 12:31:04 PST


In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:
go thru to get on the air. There were neighborhood radio clubs
which didn't allow full voting memberships to Novices and Techs .
. .


And in the mid-60s there were still some who did similar things.
Indeed, there were Advanceds who looked down on Generals, Generals
who looked down on Conditionals, Conditionals who looked down on
Techs, and Techs who looked down on Novices. Etc.

And it wasn't just kids vs. adults, either.

Yessir, It's 2004 and it's **still** out there. Guy was up late last
year for the vote on approving his membership application into The
Group (the 43rd & Kingsessing "Group" we're both familair with yes?)

You mean the one where the attendance sheet looks like the DXCC Honor
Roll?

and somebody asked "what license class does he have?" His sponser:
"Uhhh . . Advanced." Then he ducked. Immediate 180dBA noise level
from the Back Benchers, "what the hell is this guy's problem?"

Well, what IS his problem?

That group is heavily focused on DX and contesting - particularly DX
contesting. They're "a bit competitive"....

Anything less than an Extra is a big competitive disadvantage in DX
contesting. Like not being able to work split. So why doesn't the guy
get one? Even if he only works 'phone, all he need do is pass element
4. And he's had almost 4 years.

No, wait, that's not a good reason. Those writtens are really tough.
More than 4 years ago, (Jan 19, 2000, to be exact) a certain verbose
nonham here said he was going for Extra "right out of the box". But
no ham license of any class yet. And this nonham says he's a "radio
PROFESSIONAL"....

Maybe he should apply to The Group. I'd like to attend that
meeting....

Then as now, they were few - but noisy.

Maybe it was different where you were, Dan.

It's all just cycles Dan and the 1968 maneuver was not the first
cycle by any means and welcome to the current cycle. There will
be others.

Circle Game.

Dit-dit!

Still nothing from one of "us"

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras"
in RRAP suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a
problem".

That's right.

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein
some other group of people may have acted stupidly.

That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or
myself, among others, as having said anything close to "what's
his problem" over not being an Extra class licensee.

Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

The "what's his problem" reaction above happened a relatively short
time ago, not the 1960s, so the code test wasn't the issue at all.

Is that an "elitist" situation? Maybe - but that club is an elite
group. Their accomplishments in their chosen field tell the tale.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I don't know Jim. I know I guy who is on the DXCC Honor Roll and is only a
General. I'm an Extra and I don't even have my basic DXCC. I could see the
same might apply to contesting too.

Alun, even Heil had that attitude about my DXing on the 10M SSB
"kiddie band."

Welp, the contacts were valid regardless of his attitude.

There's just something wrong with with some of these Extra's.

As far as contesting goes, even the heavy hitters come looking for the
little pistols late in the game trying to run up the contact #'s. I
guess I made a bad assumption thinking that everyone who wanted a part
could have a part.

Elitism at it's worst, but I already knew it about these guys.

Subject: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (N2EY)
Date: 10/22/2004 11:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

...who does not say "destinated" either......

My standard response to "destinated" is to recommend 8 ounces of warm
prune juice with 1 ounce of Milk-of-Magnesia..."Brown Slide Cocktail"...

73

Steve, K4YZ

In article , Alun
writes:

The discussion quoted above was about admission to a very serious
DX/contest club. Their standards are high, and their goal is to win.
Not having an Extra is an easily-avoided disadvantage, and that the
applicant didn't understand that was an indication that he didn't
really understand what the club is all about.

Heck, if I applied, they'd probably ask me what logging software I use
in contests. And when I told them I use paper logs, they'd probably
say:

"What's *your* problem, Jim?"

73 de Jim, N2EY

I use paper logs too, and you're probably right about that, I'm sure they
would look askance at it.

Exactly! Nothing "wrong" with computer logs, or paper logs. But at the level
those folks play the game, computer logging has a definite advantage - just
like having an Extra.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article et, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

First off, nobody with any sense says "first personal" in normal
conversation.

Nope, nobody I ever heard.

That's cb slang, pure and simple,

Yup, that's where "Jim" learned it.

and it has no place in amateur radio. Period.

Why not?

Because it sounds silly and serves no purpose. Just IMHO.

However, as I noted before, online lectures are not the way to stop it.

They use borrowed ham slang like "handle" on CB.

Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its meaning to "a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".

10-4, Rubber Duck?

Q signals on voice aren't as bad, but they're
usually not good operating practice.

Why are they not "good operating practice"?

When plain English serves the purpose better. (note I wrote "usually".)

Everyone understands them,
even if "nobody with any sense" uses them in normal conversation.

Why not just use plain English? That's the whole point of using 'phone, isn't
it?

The moral of Hans' story seems to be "Don't ever tell anybody how to
operate, no matter how nicely, because they might be driven off." The
implication seems to be that we should accept any sort of behavior
on-air, rather than risk offending anybody.

As a KVG fan, I'd have thought you'd be the one person here to see the
moral of the story, because it echos the theme of almost all of his
work, which boils down to "BE NICE, DAMN-IT!"

Sorry I missed it, Hans.

"Pretend to be good always,
and even God will be fooled."

- God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater

"Foma! All foma!"

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(William) writes:

Hmmm? Doesn't look like an apology even though he admitted to getting
it wrong. Just what does it take for Steve to act like a human being?

An order direct from the Commandant of the Marine Corps?

"N2EY" wrote


Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and
it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its
meaning to "a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".


Whatever! 60 years ago Clinton DeSoto wrote:

"Among radio amateurs there is a genuine brotherhood and informal
camaraderie. Everyone is called by his "handle" -- his first name
or nickname. The president of the Chicago Stock Exchange and the
mechanic in a Birmingham garage are just "Paul" and "Joe" when
they meet on the air."

I guess I'll continue to use the term 'handle" --- seems to have good
roots.



Why not just use plain English?


Because the use of abbreviations and operating signals which permeated
our hobby in it's early years on Morse are carried forward as part of
the fraternity. Q signals, etc, are part of the adopted lingo of our
hobby. We all understand what they mean, and they tend to identify us as
part of the 'cognosenti'.

Many vocations and avocations have a "lingo" which, while it may strike
outsiders (and uptight insiders) as "quaint" or "affected". Auto racers
say "skins" instead of "tires", bikers talk about "Hogs", not Harley
Davidsons, old time technicians say "mickey-mikes" instead of "pico
farads", sailors say "fart sack" instead of "matress cover", and some
hams say "QSL" instead of "yes". I say, who cares.... my grammar
teacher isn't a ham, so she won't catch me, and a Russian, American, or
Brazilian ham will all understand "Thanks for the QSO" but they might
wonder WTF if I closed with "I appreciate the delightful conversation".

73 OM, de Hans, K0HB
didididah didaaaaah

N2EY wrote:


It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras" in RRAP
suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a problem".


That's right.

Need that extra license be a 20WPM? Or is 5WPM good
enough? .... Oh damm, mine is an "Extra lite"

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein some
other group of people may have acted stupidly.


That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or myself,
among others, as having said anything close to "what's his problem" over not
being an Extra class licensee.


Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

Maybe such a person wants to see if the Extra license's
benefits would be worthwhile to him. ANd if that club
would be for him if and when he did get his extra. Or
just a glutton for punishment....

robert casey wrote:

N2EY wrote:

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras" in RRAP
suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a problem".


That's right.

Need that extra license be a 20WPM? Or is 5WPM good
enough? .... Oh damm, mine is an "Extra lite"

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein some
other group of people may have acted stupidly.


That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or myself,
among others, as having said anything close to "what's his problem" over not
being an Extra class licensee.


Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

Maybe such a person wants to see if the Extra license's
benefits would be worthwhile to him. ANd if that club
would be for him if and when he did get his extra. Or
just a glutton for punishment....

One doesn't attend the meetings of some of these clubs to see if that
club would be for him. Someone will let him know if the club is for him
and notify him only after it has been decided to invite him to join or
not.
There's a certain Cincinnati area DX club which required DXCC and an
invitation to join. The Southwest Ohio DX Association, on the other
hand, doesn't restrict membership. Any guy with a 10m rig and a dipole
can sign up.

Dave K8MN

robert casey wrote in message link.net...
N2EY wrote:


It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras" in RRAP
suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a problem".


That's right.

Need that extra license be a 20WPM? Or is 5WPM good
enough? .... Oh damm, mine is an "Extra lite"

At 14.153mHz it doesn't matter if you can do 5WPM or 30...It DOES
matter if your license says "GENERAL" or "EXTRA"...

Or did yuo forget that there are other modes than CW,
Robert...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: (William)
Date: 10/23/2004 6:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

Heck, if I applied, they'd probably ask me what logging software I use in
contests. And when I told them I use paper logs, they'd probably say:

"What's *your* problem, Jim?"

73 de Jim, N2EY

People have wondered about your elitist attitude problem.

"People"...?!?!

Since when did you and Lennie constitute "people"...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its meaning to
"a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".

Whatever! 60 years ago Clinton DeSoto wrote:

"Among radio amateurs there is a genuine brotherhood and informal
camaraderie. Everyone is called by his "handle" -- his first name
or nickname. The president of the Chicago Stock Exchange and the
mechanic in a Birmingham garage are just "Paul" and "Joe" when
they meet on the air."

I guess I'll continue to use the term 'handle" --- seems to have good
roots.

Etymologists into common American idioms can tell us all that the
term "handle" predates the first demonstrations of radio as a
communications medium. That is, prior to 1896. Its use was
widespread in the sun belt areas of the USA.

But, as the PA Raddio Kopps say (flashing their very important
badges), the word "handle" is an evil despicable nasty word
uttered by unspeakably bad "CBers" just to defame certain
amateur radio extras.

Meanwhile, back to the "meaningful" discussions by the Architects
and Master Mariners (of the landlocked kind) into the WTC,
airliner handling, engineering safety, and navel maneuvers. All of
which have enormous impact on amateur radio policy matters. :-)

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and
it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its
meaning to "a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".

Whatever!

The meaning of words does change over time. Consider what the word "gay" used
to mean as an adjective, and what it means now.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

60 years ago Clinton DeSoto wrote:

"Among radio amateurs there is a genuine brotherhood and informal
camaraderie. Everyone is called by his "handle" -- his first name
or nickname. The president of the Chicago Stock Exchange and the
mechanic in a Birmingham garage are just "Paul" and "Joe" when
they meet on the air."

Sure - back before the meaning of "handle" changed. btw, it may have been a bit
longer than 60 years ago...

In those days, "handle" = "name". The above paragraph simply meant that hams
didn't (and still don't) call each other by last names or titles. Which is
definitely a Good Thing.

I guess I'll continue to use the term 'handle" --- seems to have good
roots.

No problem! I'll continue to use "name".

Why not just use plain English?

Because the use of abbreviations and operating signals which permeated
our hobby in it's early years on Morse are carried forward as part of
the fraternity.

You mean....because it's a tradition?

Q signals, etc, are part of the adopted lingo of our
hobby. We all understand what they mean, and they tend to identify us as
part of the 'cognosenti'.

Good points all.

Many vocations and avocations have a "lingo" which, while it may strike
outsiders (and uptight insiders) as "quaint" or "affected". Auto racers
say "skins" instead of "tires", bikers talk about "Hogs", not Harley
Davidsons,

Did you know that Johnson Motors is reported to be going into the motorcycle
business, making large road touring bikes in direct competition with Harley?

old time technicians say "mickey-mikes" instead of "pico
farads",

Or "puffs"

sailors say "fart sack" instead of "matress cover", and some
hams say "QSL" instead of "yes".

Roger that!

For me, the question is whether a jargon term exists to express a specific
concept that does not exist in plain English or to save syllables, or whether
it's there just to sound different.

I say, who cares.... my grammar
teacher isn't a ham, so she won't catch me, and a Russian, American, or
Brazilian ham will all understand "Thanks for the QSO" but they might
wonder WTF if I closed with "I appreciate the delightful conversation".

R R TU

In my field of work, the jargon can get to the point that ordinary people
cannot follow the conversation, yet all the jargon terms exist because the
equivalent plain English expressions are much longer and more complicated.
That's true for a lot of ham slang ("shack", "rig", "QSL card", "73") but not
for all.

In any event, an on-air lecture isn't the way to stop it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 10/22/2004 5:54 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

btw, Steve, no disrespect intended, but among those folks, 115 countries
isn't
a big deal. Twice that many isn't! It's just a matter of what they focus on.

No offense taken.

btw - is that 115 countries worked, or 115 countries confirmed?

I know that a lot of the "big ones" are in the bottom 25kHz, but at the
same time, a lot of them transmit in the bottom 25 and listen up. That's
where I caught a lot of them.

Of course.

Although I know you can use "past" callsigns collectively to get your
DXCC, I reworked almost all of them again under K4YZ to get my DXCC. A few
were left overs from when I held my 2X1, but most were done over...just to do
it.

But wouldn't it be easier to work them with a shorter call? ;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

robert casey wrote:

N2EY wrote:

It STILL does not answer your suggestion about "several Extras" in
RRAP
suggesting that anything less than an Extra Class is "a problem".

That's right.

Need that extra license be a 20WPM? Or is 5WPM good
enough? .... Oh damm, mine is an "Extra lite"

Doesn't matter to that bunch. 5 wpm Extra has been available since 1990,
anyway.

The story relates the telling of some club some time ago wherein
some other group of people may have acted stupidly.

That depends on the definition of "stupid".

You have yet to quote Brian (W3RV), Hans, Jim, the other Jim, or
myself,
among others, as having said anything close to "what's his problem" over
not
being an Extra class licensee.

Let's clear this up.

The club referred to above is a special-interest amateur radio
organization, not a general-purpose club. Their focus is HF contesting
and DXing, setting up stations to do those things better, and not
much else. They don't do domestic contests or QSO parties; they focus
on the big stuff. Their members are highly competitive, and
progressive. (Example: They were among the very first to have
computers in their hamshacks).

In pursuit of the club goals, an Extra class license is pretty much a
necessity, because the DX is often in those subbands. That's just the
way it is.

So the fact that somebody without an Extra would even apply for
membership and expect to be taken as a serious DXer/contester by that
bunch indicates a problem someplace.

Maybe such a person wants to see if the Extra license's
benefits would be worthwhile to him.

How would attending meetings tell him that?

ANd if that club
would be for him if and when he did get his extra.

That's a valid reason to go to meetings.

Or just a glutton for punishment....

??

One doesn't attend the meetings of some of these clubs to see if that
club would be for him.

Why not? I did.

Someone will let him know if the club is for him
and notify him only after it has been decided to invite him to join or
not.

At least in the club that the story describes, there's a world of difference
between attending meetings and joining up. Going to meetings is one way to find
out if the club is for you or not. Everyone was very nice to me when I went
there, even thought I was an almost complete stranger. They didn't know my
callsign or license class, either.

There's a certain Cincinnati area DX club which required DXCC and an
invitation to join. The Southwest Ohio DX Association, on the other
hand, doesn't restrict membership. Any guy with a 10m rig and a dipole
can sign up.

Yup. We have clubs like that around here, too.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

robert casey wrote:

N2EY wrote:

One doesn't attend the meetings of some of these clubs to see if that
club would be for him.

Why not? I did.

....because the only way to attend some of 'em is by invitation.

Someone will let him know if the club is for him
and notify him only after it has been decided to invite him to join or
not.

At least in the club that the story describes, there's a world of difference
between attending meetings and joining up. Going to meetings is one way to find
out if the club is for you or not. Everyone was very nice to me when I went
there, even thought I was an almost complete stranger. They didn't know my
callsign or license class, either.

The Cincinnati area club, described below invited prospective members of
their choosing to attend a meeting. The invited attendee was "grilled"
a bit about his on-air activities, his DXCC status and his contesting
interest. I was invited to a meeting and determined within the first
fifteen minutes or so that I wasn't interested. This old, old club is
all but extinct now--a result of being too picky about who joined. The
old core membership simply died off.

There's a certain Cincinnati area DX club which required DXCC and an
invitation to join. The Southwest Ohio DX Association, on the other
hand, doesn't restrict membership. Any guy with a 10m rig and a dipole
can sign up.

Yup. We have clubs like that around here, too.

There are few clubs hereabouts and none of them are DX/contest clubs.
It is a minimum 25 drive for me to attend even our country ARES
meetings. The nearest DX/contesting club is in Pittsburgh, an
hour-and-a-half away.
In the valley, those who chase DX are K8IP, N8NN, W8GBH and me. I'm not
nearly as active in contesting as in previous years. The idea of
spending 44-45 hours of a 48 hour CQ WW doesn't appeal to me as much now
as it did a decade or so back. I tend to do more single band entries.
160, 80 or 40m guarantees some sleep during the day. 10m at the current
point in the solar cycle would allow me to sleep all night and be bored
all day.

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

robert casey wrote:

N2EY wrote:

One doesn't attend the meetings of some of these clubs to see if that
club would be for him.

Why not? I did.

...because the only way to attend some of 'em is by invitation.

Wow! Never heard of that before!

Someone will let him know if the club is for him
and notify him only after it has been decided to invite him to join or
not.

At least in the club that the story describes, there's a world of
difference
between attending meetings and joining up. Going to meetings is one way to
find
out if the club is for you or not. Everyone was very nice to me when I went
there, even thought I was an almost complete stranger. They didn't know my
callsign or license class, either.

The Cincinnati area club, described below invited prospective members of
their choosing to attend a meeting. The invited attendee was "grilled"
a bit about his on-air activities, his DXCC status and his contesting
interest.

Understandable, to a point anyway. If the club is special-purpose, folks with a
different focus will almost certainly try to change the direction.

I was invited to a meeting and determined within the first
fifteen minutes or so that I wasn't interested. This old, old club is
all but extinct now--a result of being too picky about who joined. The
old core membership simply died off.

Understandable!

There's a certain Cincinnati area DX club which required DXCC and an
invitation to join. The Southwest Ohio DX Association, on the other
hand, doesn't restrict membership. Any guy with a 10m rig and a dipole
can sign up.

Yup. We have clubs like that around here, too.

There are few clubs hereabouts and none of them are DX/contest clubs.
It is a minimum 25 drive for me to attend even our country ARES
meetings. The nearest DX/contesting club is in Pittsburgh, an
hour-and-a-half away.
In the valley, those who chase DX are K8IP, N8NN, W8GBH and me.

I've belonged to a few clubs in my 37 years, but recently time limitations are
a big problem. It's not that I have no time, it's that the time comes in small
bits at unpredictable or inconvenient times. Most clubs don't have meetings on
weekdays at 5 AM, for example.

I'm not
nearly as active in contesting as in previous years. The idea of
spending 44-45 hours of a 48 hour CQ WW doesn't appeal to me as much now
as it did a decade or so back. I tend to do more single band entries.
160, 80 or 40m guarantees some sleep during the day. 10m at the current
point in the solar cycle would allow me to sleep all night and be bored
all day.

I've always been domestic-contesting focused, for some reason. SS, Field Day,
NA sprints, etc. Small potatoes to the serious contest folk in these parts, but
much more do-able for those with moderate stations and time.

Two weekends to SS, btw. QRP with the K2 or low power with the Type 7? We'll
see.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:


I've always been domestic-contesting focused, for some reason. SS, Field Day,
NA sprints, etc. Small potatoes to the serious contest folk in these parts, but
much more do-able for those with moderate stations and time.

Two weekends to SS, btw. QRP with the K2 or low power with the Type 7? We'll
see.


You don't do PAQSO? I've never come across your call in the logbooks.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its meaning
to "a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".

Whatever! 60 years ago Clinton DeSoto wrote:

"Among radio amateurs there is a genuine brotherhood and informal
camaraderie. Everyone is called by his "handle" -- his first name
or nickname. The president of the Chicago Stock Exchange and the
mechanic in a Birmingham garage are just "Paul" and "Joe" when
they meet on the air."

I guess I'll continue to use the term 'handle" --- seems to have good
roots.

Etymologists into common American idioms can tell us all that the
term "handle" predates the first demonstrations of radio as a
communications medium. That is, prior to 1896. Its use was
widespread in the sun belt areas of the USA.

Of course, Len. That's what I wrote:

" "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it wasn't even strictly a piece of
ham jargon. "

But, as the PA Raddio Kopps say (flashing their very important
badges), the word "handle" is an evil despicable nasty word
uttered by unspeakably bad "CBers" just to defame certain
amateur radio extras.

Where do you come up with that, Len?

Meanings of words can change over time. cb folks changed the meaning of
"handle" when applied to identification of a person. Rather than simply meaning
"name", they changed it to mean "a made-up name to avoid using call letters or
other means of positive identification".

"Handles", on cb, were and are used in an attempt to *avoid positive
identification* by others, particularly the FCC.

That's not something any radio amateur should do. It's a bad thing.

The use of "handles" by cb folks for the purpose of evading positive detection
dates back years before FCC stopped issuing licenses and call letters for cb
users. In fact, one of the reasons (not the only one) FCC gave up on cb
licensing was that few cb users were using call signs.

cb folks started using the terms "personal" and "first personal" to mean "name"
and "first name" in part because the meaning of "handle" had changed.

All of that is plain, simple fact. Hard for you to take, though. Too bad!

10-4, good buddy? What's *your* handle, Len? How many Bird watts does your
radidio dead key?

Perhaps your love of "handles" is why you can't seem to call people by their
names...

Meanwhile, back to the "meaningful" discussions by the Architects
and Master Mariners (of the landlocked kind) into the WTC,
airliner handling, engineering safety, and navel maneuvers. All of
which have enormous impact on amateur radio policy matters. :-)

They have more impact and relevance than your oft-repeated stories of watching
teletypes at ADA 24/7, or your claim to fame of writing for a defunct magazine.

In article ,
(Hans K0HB) writes:

(N2EY) wrote

Did you know that Johnson Motors is reported to be going into the
motorcycle business, making large road touring bikes in direct
competition with Harley?

If you're speaking of the Johnson Motors who used to make outboard
motors for boats, the company is long, long defunct.

Many years ago they merged with Evinrude Motors and became Outboard
Marine Corporation (OMC).

OMC went bankrupt a few years ago, and was liquidated.

The brand names "Johnson" and "Evinrude" were acquired by Bombardier
(the Canadian company which makes Learjets).

I have heard no rumors that Bombardier is going into the motorcycle
business.

Well, Hans, the announcement is kind of recent, and was kept low-key for
obvious reasons:

http://listproc.ucdavis.edu/archives...0305/0137.html

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:


I've always been domestic-contesting focused, for some reason. SS, Field
Day,
NA sprints, etc. Small potatoes to the serious contest folk in these parts,
but
much more do-able for those with moderate stations and time.

Two weekends to SS, btw. QRP with the K2 or low power with the Type 7?
We'll
see.


You don't do PAQSO?

Not yet!

I've never come across your call in the logbooks.

When is the next one?

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: These EXTRA'S, Steve::: WHICH Extras, Brain?
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 10/22/2004 5:54 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

btw, Steve, no disrespect intended, but among those folks, 115 countries
isn't
a big deal. Twice that many isn't! It's just a matter of what they focus
on.

No offense taken.

btw - is that 115 countries worked, or 115 countries confirmed?

115 confirmed...135 worked last I counted...I ahven't been
proactively collecting cards since I moved to Winchester.

roger that!

I know that a lot of the "big ones" are in the bottom 25kHz, but at the
same time, a lot of them transmit in the bottom 25 and listen up. That's
where I caught a lot of them.

Of course.

Although I know you can use "past" callsigns collectively to get your
DXCC, I reworked almost all of them again under K4YZ to get my DXCC. A
few
were left overs from when I held my 2X1, but most were done over...just to
do
it.

But wouldn't it be easier to work them with a shorter call? ;)

I haven't had a "long" call since February 1980!~

Nor I, since 1977!

I never really cared for the 2 x 1 format a whole lot. I always
wanted a "K" call 1x2 or 1x3.

I got mine during a period when there was no choice except "I want a 1x2 or
2x1".

The "YZ" worked for me in two ways...first it sounds very
distinctive on CW, and secondly since one of the USMC units I was in
had the tail "modex" of "YZ".

cool

I received a bunch of nice 160M QSL cards that were actaully
meant for "KC8MK", not my old call of "KC8M"...I've not received any
misdirected cards since I switched to K4YZ in 96.

It happens!

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:



I've always been domestic-contesting focused, for some reason. SS, Field

Day,

NA sprints, etc. Small potatoes to the serious contest folk in these parts,

but

much more do-able for those with moderate stations and time.

Two weekends to SS, btw. QRP with the K2 or low power with the Type 7?

We'll

see.


You don't do PAQSO?


Not yet!


I've never come across your call in the logbooks.


When is the next one?

Second Weekend in October. That would be the 8th and 9th next year.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

Corrupting it in the process. "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it
wasn't even strictly a piece of ham jargon. cb folks changed its meaning
to "a
made-up name to avoid using call letters or other means of positive
identification".

Whatever! 60 years ago Clinton DeSoto wrote:

"Among radio amateurs there is a genuine brotherhood and informal
camaraderie. Everyone is called by his "handle" -- his first name
or nickname. The president of the Chicago Stock Exchange and the
mechanic in a Birmingham garage are just "Paul" and "Joe" when
they meet on the air."

I guess I'll continue to use the term 'handle" --- seems to have good
roots.

Etymologists into common American idioms can tell us all that the
term "handle" predates the first demonstrations of radio as a
communications medium. That is, prior to 1896. Its use was
widespread in the sun belt areas of the USA.

Of course, Len. That's what I wrote:

" "Handle" used to simply mean "name", and it wasn't even strictly a piece of
ham jargon. "

Tsk, tsk. Still have raw nerve endings at not being praised and
revered for "recycling" all those radio parts shown in the
single home page picture. :-)

The word "ham" is still not the best of "respectable" nicknames.
You would be in difficulty saying an actor is a ham. :-)

But, as the PA Raddio Kopps say (flashing their very important
badges), the word "handle" is an evil despicable nasty word
uttered by unspeakably bad "CBers" just to defame certain
amateur radio extras.

Where do you come up with that, Len?

In newsgroups, on the Internet, in personal communications with
PCTA masters-of-radio...just to name a few hundred sources. :-)

Meanings of words can change over time. cb folks changed the meaning of
"handle" when applied to identification of a person. Rather than simply
meaning
"name", they changed it to mean "a made-up name to avoid using call letters or
other means of positive identification".

Well, there we have it. The judgement from Nuremberg (or someplace).

Tsk. Trying to lay blame on the "cb folks."

Why do you have a problem with CB?

"Handles", on cb, were and are used in an attempt to *avoid positive
identification* by others, particularly the FCC.

Oh? You have personal experience with that? :-)

That's not something any radio amateur should do. It's a bad thing.

Tsk. Vile, contemptible, dastardly sort of bad thing? :-)

Run right out to the FCC with your reports on evil, wicked, mean
and nasty CBers not giving their proper, official call letters! :-)

The use of "handles" by cb folks for the purpose of evading positive detection
dates back years before FCC stopped issuing licenses and call letters for cb
users. In fact, one of the reasons (not the only one) FCC gave up on cb
licensing was that few cb users were using call signs.

Well, there we have it...again.

The "insiders" information on Why The FCC Does Things!

It's no wonder you get upset when someone calls Mikey Powell for
"Mikey." It's hard to suck up to the boss when you get razzed for
it?

So, what did YOU DO about making CB all right and amateur-
proper? Nothing? Tsk.

Class D Citizens Band has been in existance since 1958. That's
a long time. [I was working at Ramo-Wooldridge Corporation when
that happened...were you working anyplace?] Shirley, with all that
"insider" information on the Commission, you MUST have some
influence with them to correct
their actions, right?

cb folks started using the terms "personal" and "first personal" to mean
"name"
and "first name" in part because the meaning of "handle" had changed.

"Hi hi" and a "'73," copy your op-ed "599" OM. :-)

All of that is plain, simple fact. Hard for you to take, though. Too bad!

NOT "fact," Jimmie. Just your OPINION.

Try to understand you and your opinions are NOT the center of the
universe.

10-4, good buddy? What's *your* handle, Len? How many Bird watts does your
radidio dead key?

I don't have a "radidio." Explain what that is supposed to be.

"Ten" codes were devised by the nation's police forces, not by
CBers. You have a problem with the police forces? Tsk.

I have a NAME and use it, on or off any communications device.

My briefcase has a handle, my suitcases have handles, all our
doors at home have handles, many of the kitchen implements have
handles (knives, pans, pots, etc.), we have all sorts of drawers and
cabinets with handles. Even my despised (in the PCTA's view)
Icom R-70 has one handle!

Sunnuvagun! :-)

All you have is an amateur callsign and use it like a name. That's
not good for you in court when some police force makes you appear
there. You are federally authorized to transmit RF energy, but ONLY
in amateur radio bands and ONLY within their technical limits.

A Bird manufactured wattmeter is a good dummy load with a meter
(reasonably accurate) measuring the power dissipated in that load.
I first used one in commercial work sometimes in the 1960s. WREX-
TV had a huge one beside the video and aural transmitters when I
worked there in 1956 but the station didn't have to use it as a dummy
load to test the transmitters. What did you use in 1956?

Perhaps your love of "handles" is why you can't seem to call people by their
names...

Perhaps you are losing your sanity, going around imagining what
others think and do. Tsk. We already have one confirmed nutso
in this newsgroup. Another one (another PCTA) won't make much
difference.

Meanwhile, back to the "meaningful" discussions by the Architects
and Master Mariners (of the landlocked kind) into the WTC,
airliner handling, engineering safety, and navel maneuvers. All of
which have enormous impact on amateur radio policy matters. :-)

They have more impact and relevance than your oft-repeated stories of watching
teletypes at ADA 24/7, or your claim to fame of writing for a defunct
magazine.

What "oft-repeated stories of watching teletypes," Rev. Jim?

Army station ADA had teletype loops linking transmitters, receivers,
and the control. Only three loops and three separate circuits as
order wires (where all the commands are given, advisories noted).
That makes only three to "watch" (one can hear them start up from
their normal idle state). One had better "watch" those...or face
disciplinary action at a military station.

Oh, but you've never served your country in the military, have you?
No, you serve your country "in other ways." None of which have
been named. [you exist therefore that alone is "serving this
country?"]

Rev. Jim, don't take it so hard in trying to write your next sermon.
Not all of us can be as lucky as I and get exposed to REAL HF
communications done around the clock, every day of each year.
But, you never did ANY of that so you show your spite by insulting
those of us few who did real service. Tsk.

Now you want to toss snit on Ham Radio Magazine? Again?

Jim Fisk and Skip Tenney (editor in chief and publisher, respectively)
started HR as an independent amateur radio periodical. What they
started kept on going for 22 years. [Jim Fisk died suddenly of a
heart attack before the 22 years were completed] Communications
Technology, Inc., did not have the benefit of a budget umbrella and
life preserver from any membership organization...they did it by
themselves. Their reputation as a source of technical information
for radio amateurs was recognized around the world. Still is.

Did you write articles for HR? No, you didn't. Were you on the HR
masthead (the column next to the TOC showing the names of the
staff)? No, you were not. You did neither. I did both.

I don't "claim any fame" from what was minimum-wage work for HR.
It was FUN work in a field I was, and still am, in...that of radio and
electronics. In fact, I don't claim ANY "fame" in anything. I've done
my career well in a work that I chose because it was interesting to
me, still do my hobbies in that for the same reason.

What I've said I've done was actually done. There's even
"documented" proof available that I did. :-) I don't hang in a news-
group every day as you do, speaking out on all kinds of subjects
that: (1) Don't concern amateur radio in any way; (2) Are not from
your work experience; (3) Are presented as "facts" because they
are personal preferences and opinions instead of facts. You've
done all three of those in one message. :-) Good job...but way
out of place.