Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?


So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote


This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for
electromagfetic waves to travel through the air anyway.


It's not *odd* at all, Mike.

It's "The RRAP Way"

A line from an old Cosby skit comes to mind, imperfectly remembered, but
goes something like this:

"And there were these cavemen sitting in their
caves watching their kerosene powered TV's
by candlelight, muttering "They ain't never
gonna invent *radios*"'

Or the admonishment of Bokonon, from KVG's "Cat's Cradle"

"Beware of the man who works hard to learn
something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser
than before. He is full of murderous resentment
of people who are ignorant without having come
by their ignorance the hard way."

I'm not into baloons, but I admire the spriit of your project. Good
luck to you.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new graound here, it's more like a pile of labor than a
real design challenge. If the instrument capsule is sealed at sea
level and flown to 100,000 feet every six inch by six inch x by 3/4
inch thick patch of the foam board will have to survive a 470+/- pound
outward load. Which I doubt will work. So the capsule should be sealed
then evacuated to say 30,000 feet to get those stresses down. I can
take it anywhere from here but I ain't.

Or maybe it doesn't have to be sealed airtight at all. Perhaps all that really
matters is temperature of the components.

Sometimes dumb luck and enthusiasim gets the driveway mechanics there
faster than applied physics does.

"If it happens, it must be possible"

73 de Jim, N2EY

btw, December QST has Field Day results. W3RV/3 with second op N2EY took the
top spot in our entry class, according to the line scores.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

In my industry, we have a saying:

"If it happens, it must be possible"

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

When the ARRL sent Paul Godley to Great Britain in 1921 to listen for American
hams on 200 meters, at least some of the professionals of the day said it
couldn't be done. And they were right, in a way: They didn't know about
ionospheric refraction, and that the model they used to predict signal strength
at a distance for longer waves wasn't valid for 200 meters.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)

It occurs to me that the problems of cold and high altitude are interrelated. I
don;t think high altitude *in itself* is a problem for most modern electronics
(hard drives are a notable exception). The problem of high altitude operation
is, I think, a *thermal* problem - "room temperature" thin air doesn't carry
away enough heat, and components can overheat due to this lack. But if the thin
air is forty below, it may be adequate with some insulation. Etc.

As for lifting capacity and other problems: They've obviously been solved
before. Hydrogen may be usable - the package doesn't have any spark-generating
components, and no humans are aboard. ("oh the humanity")

The only possibly-insurmountable problem I can see is airspace. And that's
curable geographically. As in, you might have to go to Ohio or Indiana to
launch.
Big deal - that's what minivans are for.

I wish you good luck and all success, Mike.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote


This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for
electromagfetic waves to travel through the air anyway.



It's not *odd* at all, Mike.

It's "The RRAP Way"

Heh, and a strange way it is!

A line from an old Cosby skit comes to mind, imperfectly remembered, but
goes something like this:

"And there were these cavemen sitting in their
caves watching their kerosene powered TV's
by candlelight, muttering "They ain't never
gonna invent *radios*"'

Bill was a wise guy in so many ways.

Or the admonishment of Bokonon, from KVG's "Cat's Cradle"

"Beware of the man who works hard to learn
something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser
than before. He is full of murderous resentment
of people who are ignorant without having come
by their ignorance the hard way."

Snort! That one fits.

I'm not into baloons, but I admire the spriit of your project. Good
luck to you.


Thanks. - Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new graound here, it's more like a pile of labor than a
real design challenge. If the instrument capsule is sealed at sea
level and flown to 100,000 feet every six inch by six inch x by 3/4
inch thick patch of the foam board will have to survive a 470+/- pound
outward load. Which I doubt will work. So the capsule should be sealed
then evacuated to say 30,000 feet to get those stresses down. I can
take it anywhere from here but I ain't.


Or maybe it doesn't have to be sealed airtight at all. Perhaps all that really
matters is temperature of the components.


Sometimes dumb luck and enthusiasim gets the driveway mechanics there
faster than applied physics does.


"If it happens, it must be possible"

73 de Jim, N2EY

btw, December QST has Field Day results. W3RV/3 with second op N2EY took the
top spot in our entry class, according to the line scores.

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A. Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Leo
writes:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:



It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?

Not to mention Standard Atmosphere tables, models, etc. :-)

One is NOT going to reach 100 kilofeet altitude using 8-foot
latex weather balloons, regardless of the source.

If those could reach it, they would have done so long ago. Hint:
they aren't designed to reach way way up there to "near space"
altitudes.

So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

Tsk. Mike is into the bad movie dialogue of years ago wherein a
bunch of kids in a barn would exclaim, "We can put on a Show!"
and the movie then cuts to many song and dance numbers which
are held on a much larger "stage" than could be put in such a
barn. :-)

"Will and idea" won't work by itself. A little bit of background into
the physics will be the baseplate of all future building (and flying)
decisions.

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

Tsk. Mike is getting "odd" in the pique-ness of his complaints.

"Others have done it," so therefore Mike "can do it." Problem is,
Mike has not yet done it.

There's a big gulf between "others have done it" and actually
getting out and DOING it. Publicity releases made ahead of
time need the psychology of marketing to do an effective
selling job.

A case example is the website of the "Grand Challenge," the
autonomous vehicle "race" from Barstow, CA, to Las Vegas, NV.
Lots and lots of publicity ahead of time, all the entrants were
VERY confident, etc. NONE of them finished. Only about
a third of them managed to get started.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)

Fine. MIke, GO for it. Let us know when you've discovered how to
balloon things into the world of reality. It's your helium. Ought to
be a gas.

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?

1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".

Nice try no cigar.



I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.

By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

.. . . 10-4 . . ?



- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv