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Dave Heil November 10th 04 05:07 AM
Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...

The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource like

the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for
business
use only.

Thank you for saying that, Alun. Sincere thanks.

About six years ago (or so) in here I tried to point out that there is
a
good analogue between the hobby of amateur radio and the national
park service. The U.S. Park Service has a million acres (give or
take)
which is reserved for ALL the citizenry to enjoy for their recreation.

You did?

Google up the post for us, please, Len. Your experience in computer-modem
communications should make that an easy task for you.

Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome, still trying to
argue old, old postings all over again. And again. And again. :-)

It is "bulimia", Len. Master the word and make it your own. :-)

I'd say Jim has done a fair job of it. You've been caught with your
pants down, old boy.

Spare me . . . more snake oil . . one more of your bogus "claims to
fame" eh Sweetums?

Tsk. I don't "claim any fame" to that analogue.

Then why did you mention it, Len?

Tsk. All WRONG again, Jimmie? :-)

Kellie brought up "claim to fame." I just repudiated it.

....but not successfully.

All you want to do is re-argue the PAST. :-)

And all you want to do is tap dance out of this mess of your own
creation.
:-)

Face the music (even if you are deaf), amateur radio is basically
a HOBBY. There should be absolutely nothing wrong with that
concept.

What's "wrong" is when someone denies that there are any "nonhobby" aspects to
amateur radio. Such as emergency and public service communications, education,
advancing the state of the art, etc.

Of course...like "advancing the state of the art" in home building
all-tube rigs in the 1990s. :-)

You can't admit that a number of hams are involved in the public service
aspects of amateur radio?

There is a lot of wrong with the political statements saying it is a
"vital need to the nation" such as for "emergency comms" as if
the time was prior to WW2 when two-way radios were scarce.

Who says amateur radio is a "vital need to the nation", Len?

ARRL. :-)

You seem to think that amateur radio plays no role in emergency or public
service communications, based simply on your experience watching TV after one
California earthquake. That's simply too limited a view.

Three earthquakes, not just one. :-)

But it is a matter of public record that radio amateurs participated.
Names and calls have been published. How do you account for that?

Tsk. I was out there, not just "watching TV." Didn't see any "ham
emergency" crews at the disaster centers. Maybe they were all
home using CW on their rigs? [ "CW gets through when nothing else
will...even without electrical power!" ]

To make this clear for us, you were actually at the involved disaster
centers, Len? All of 'em? So you know for a fact that no radio
amateurs were involved in these earthquakes?

For example, when the space shuttle burned up on reentry, there were groups of
volunteers out looking for debris that survived the disaster. Some groups had
communications provided by amateur radio, others depended on cell phones.

Riiiiight, Jimmie...ONLY hams were any aid, right? Nobody else could
do the job? :-)

You didn't really address what was stated, did you?

The Press has been negligent again, reporting false news...they should
have listened to the ARRL (who knows the "real" truth as opposed to
"wrong" truths spoken by the government, NASA, etc.).

I've seen no government nor NASA reports stating, "No radio amateurs
were involved". If you've seen such a statement, kindly provide
references so that the rest of us may be educated.

The post-operation consensus was that cell phones were not well suited for
that
type of operation, and that amateur radio played a key role in the groups that
had hams providing the communications. That's all documented by people who
were there.

Nooooo...that's all documented by the ARRL. :-)

Were those hams participating in a HOBBY when they volunteered?

They were being good citizens. All those hams got their licenses so they
could later Hunt for Space Shuttle Debris?

There are plenty of good citizens. Not all of them are equipped to to
what radio amateurs did in this case. Why the dodge?

Pretending that amateur radio is "vital" is a lot of POLITICAL
bull**** and you know it.

What does it take for something to be "vital", Len?

Constant reading and listening to the ARRL. :-)

Whatsa matter? You couldn't think of an answer?


Perhaps you are angry that W3RV pointed out your mistake. You should thank him
for the new information. Don't you like new information?

Kellie no got "new" information. :-)

Kellie wanna practice mental bullemia and barf up old postings.

Len, one time is a mistake. The word is "bulimia".

W3RV pointed out that the concept is much older than six years. Now you're
trying to weasel out because you've lost that point. Doesn't work.

"Weasel out?!?" :-)

Yeah, weasel out.

Tsk. You morsemen weren't able to successfully argue your cases
for anything in the past...now you disguise your later comments on
old things as some kind of "truth" of "new things?"

Keep tap dancing, Len.

That's NOT "weaseling out." That's just plain nuts, morseman.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that the idea belonged to
another, can you?

Don't fib Sweetums, you know I'm out here doing my homework.

I could care less, "Sweetums."

Then why are you arguing, Len? Just say you were wrong and move on. Thank
W3RV for the correction and live in the present.

I could care less, "Jim" (or would you rather be called "Jim?")

:-)

The volume of your material in an attempted defense of the indefensible,
says otherwise. You care.

Whoever originated it, the park analogy has some merit. It also has a bunch of
problems.

A long time ago, Teddy Roosevelt thought so...but managed to get the
National Park Service going... :-)

You mean it wasn't your idea?

What's wrong with promoting amateur radio *now* as a combination of *all* its
contributions - recreation, public service, technical innovation, education,
emergency communications, and more?

Tsk. More wrong "wrongness!" :-)

I've never said what you've claimed about "promotion." But, you've gotten
so
thick about hollering "wrong" all the time, I don't suppose you can stop.

The ARRL propaganda is - consistently - the SAME. It also seems to be
ineffective OUTSIDE of amateur radio. ARRL is constantly doing SELF-
PROMOTION and the government can see that as easily as anyone not in
amateur radio. ARRL has apparently begun to Believe itself in all that
propaganda and self-glorification.

ARRL just hasn't gotten into mainstream media with any of that noble and
glorious "technical innovation, education, emergency communications," let
alone the "recreation" part. The "public service" part is notably lacking,
everywhere but at the ARRL and its output.

That's quite a rant, Leonard. There's a running QST item most months
which is called "Media Hits". What kind of items do you think it
highlights?

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo November 10th 04 05:09 AM


Dave Heil wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

"Bringing up old postings again and again is just a mental form
of bullemia."

"Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome..."

Leonard, with due respect to your claimed professionalism as a writer,
among other things, do you mean "bulimia"? :-) :-) :-)


Isn't bullemia a cow with a nutrition problem?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo November 10th 04 05:20 AM
Brian Kelly wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message . com...

Alun wrote in message . ..

(Brian Kelly) wrote in


I bought him a copy of the ARRL primer on
ham radio, a copy of Passport and I need to dredge up a half-decent
rcvr for cheap, toss some wire up and I'll see what happens.

Christmas is coming, do it soon!

Just don't get him some "worldband" POJ.


. . . groan . . I am not a newbie to HF radios . . .


He might actually enjoy an older receiver (!) simply because it's
different and not like everything else in RatShack. He sounds like the
kind of kid who may be specifically attracted to the uniqueness of HF
radio.


Twelve-year-olds have two new hot buttons per day on average and I
learned a long time ago to be very selective about financing those hot
buttons. I'll *loan* him my TS-50 for awhile and see where he takes
it.


Hams still do *public service* comms (covers emergency comms and more)
and also "advance the state of the art" in some ways. But that view is
way too limited.


The HF spectrum is a
protected and regulated natural resource

*THAT* is the hard sell to the antiscience folks. It's clear from the
comments of BPL folks that they just don't understand HF radio.


The "BPL folks" understood quite well what HF radio is all about going
into the brawl. They set us up like ducks at a boardwalk shooting
gallery which meshed beautifully with the agenda of the current
"antiscience" leadership at the FCC and up.


Point 2: The coming of BPL is exactly analogous to the timber
companies clear-cutting anywhere they choose to do so. We're now in a
position to get clear-cut ourselves, that's WRONG and it's coming from
the same bunch of politicians who have the worst environmental record
and big-biz "connections" in recent times. The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies by leaning on the politicians and the
courts and now it's our turn.

Yup. And it's not just timber companies; all sorts of commercial
interests want to "develop" the "wilderness". Remember Storm King.


No. What matters is *now*, as in drilling in the wilderness preserves
in Alaska.


Brian, you're right!

The issue is not that we are relevant or up to date. We're not.

I disagree!

We *are* relevant, simply because we are "the public"! And we are as
"up to date" as we need to be.


Agreed here. Sort of.


There should be a place for folks to enjoy radio for its own sake. As
its own justification. That does *not* mean there should be no rules
or standards, however.


Yup.


CB and FRS are parts of the same thing,

Not really.

Those services are meant for specific comms purposes. That's why
they're channelized, used only approved equipment (in theory anyway)
and are restricted in other ways (you're not going to work the world
on FRS or CB).


I realize that we're all "bred" to diss the CBers but when it comes to
passing real emergency traffic to the authorities over the years they
have us beat by probably a couple orders of magnitude.

Good to see that someone admits it. I have personally had my live saved
a few times, and probably saved a few more by my Mobile CB.
Once I almost ran into "Hitlers armored car" (I kid you not) when the
trailer that was towing it got jacknifed and stuck across the top of
gaurdrails on Interstate 80. Nowhere to go, and all I could do was stand
on the brakes hard. I was on a curve in the road, and a trucker coming
the other way just yelled "You gotta stop NOW!" THere have been other
incidents, but none so dramatic.



I agree with Alun, all not-for-profit personal comms bands need to
fall under the same basic protective umbrella or we'll wind up in a
divide & conquer maneuver.


First off, amateur radio is more than "just a hobby" because of the
public service comms, technical innovation, and educational angles. We
must not lose those things - we're adding, not subtracting.


That's EXACTLY the kind of entrenched 'wayback thinking which needs to
put behind us because most of it's BS.


Second, although millions of acres are preserved as parks in the USA,
the total percentage of area in that system isn't very large, compared
to how big the USA is. If we try to sell ham radio on the park idea
alone, we might find ourselves with a tiny percentage of the spectrum
we now have.


There wouldn't be any need to do that sort of number-juggling, just
edit the opening paragraphs of Part 97 and leave details like the band
edges alone.


Recreational technology usually doesn't exactly compare to commercial
or military technology. Sailing ships are all but gone from the
commercial shipping and fishing venues,


Try commercial crabbing in the Chesapeake Bay with a power boat . .


and from the world's navies as
well. But they are all over the place in recreation.


. . . .


Here's another concept to add to the pie - sports. Look at the London,
Boston and New York City marathons (just to name three) - they involve
the use of public facilities (roads) for a use that is basically
recreational for 99+% of the participants. Some folks would rather
that all those marathoners just run on treadmills rather than tying up
traffic for a day. Radiosport is a big part of amateur radio.

Now - how do we sell that package?


The usual. Get the ARRL to support it and petition the FCC for an
NPRM.


73 de Jim, N2EY


w3rv

Brian Kelly November 10th 04 09:18 AM
(Hans K0HB) wrote in message . com...
 (Brian Kelly) wrote

Encouraging innovation isn't tough --- in my engineering group I ask
each engineer to spend 10% of their time (4 hours per week) as "PBI"
time ("Partially Baked Idea"). This is time to pursue personally
selected pet projects unrelated to their primary tasking, even unrelated
to our groups tasking. Once a quarter we hold a one day "off site in
blue jeans" meeting where individuals can grab the spotlight and "show
and tell" their PBI to the rest of the group. The effect on creativity
is marvelous, and also a great tool for identifying "up and comers"
whose creativity might be otherwise masked by the day-to-day drudge of
assigned tasking.

And they get paid for every minute they spend on their brainfarts.


Brian sees them as "brainfarts" and our company sees the program as a
particularly effective source of new product ideas. So much so that
in the past three fiscal years 18% of our new-product revenues had
their origins in the PBI-incubator.

Damned RIGHT they get paid for every minute, and it's money well
spent.

That's all very nice, congratulations on your 18%.

I've worked in any number of commercial engineering enviornments in
which *everything* which crossed the the shipping dock outbound to a
customer was the result of all-hands new product development
brainfarting sessions starting with a completely blank sheet of paper.
No innovation no checkee every time and there's nothing unusual about
any of it.

Since you brought it up let's cut the crap and do some meat &
potatoes. What's any of it have to do with diverting ARRL funds from
their spectrum defense fund into this nebulous "funding" of innovation
in *amateur* radio concept you've proposed? How, exactly, would that
work Hans?

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

Steve Robeson K4YZ November 10th 04 10:33 AM
Subject: They just don't get it!
From: Dave Heil
Date: 11/9/2004 10:36 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:

Bringing up old postings again and again is just a mental form
of bullemia. Or just plain bull.

I know of "bulimia". Is that what you mean? If so, you may consider
that others are now sticking their fingers down your throught in hopes
that you'll gag up a hunk of truth.

I prefer a more probable bet...Like Brittney Spears showing up on my front
porch begging for a full night of physical intimacy.

Keep on trying, though, eventually you'll make everyone sick and
tired of you trying to win one of those "discussions."

The discussion is won just as soon as your earlier words are compared to
your recent words. Both can't be correct. In this case, we have you
claiming credit for an idea someone else introduced. So you see, this
time doesn't really deal with an old post of yours, but an old post of
someone else's. :-)

Ouch. Truth. Lennie will be stewing in his own spittle looking for a
witty comebeack for THAT one!

Yes, Holy Father, it would mean SO much to you gods of radio
to have an NCTA capitulate to your divine words.

If you mean, that you'd eat humble pie over the issue of claiming credit
for what someone else wrote--yeah, that'd be nice.

Lennie? Admit he was caught at his own game? Har!~

Tell ya what, Holy Father, I'll kiss your ring but you have to kiss my
a**. :-)

With which end do we start? :-) :-)

It's the puckered pink end with the foul odor emanating...Oh..wait...that
works either way...Oh well......

73

Steve, K4YZ

Steve Robeson K4YZ November 10th 04 10:35 AM
Subject: They just don't get it!
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 11/9/2004 5:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome, still trying to
argue old, old postings all over again. And again. And again.

This from the master of regurgitating 1950's era trivia..over and over an
over....

You brought it up, Len. Now you're tap-dancing all over the place because you
*know* you're wrong.

Whew.,

Steve, K4YZ

Steve Robeson K4YZ November 10th 04 10:47 AM
Subject: They just don't get it!
From: Dave Heil
Date: 11/9/2004 11:07 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

Tsk. I was out there, not just "watching TV." Didn't see any "ham
emergency" crews at the disaster centers. Maybe they were all
home using CW on their rigs? [ "CW gets through when nothing else
will...even without electrical power!" ]

To make this clear for us, you were actually at the involved disaster
centers, Len? All of 'em? So you know for a fact that no radio
amateurs were involved in these earthquakes?

Then this would be yet another contradiction of Lennie's...Once upon a time
he owned up to having only "once" helped filling sandbags and some non-specific
"disaster".

For example, when the space shuttle burned up on reentry, there were
groups of
volunteers out looking for debris that survived the disaster. Some groups
had
communications provided by amateur radio, others depended on cell phones.

Riiiiight, Jimmie...ONLY hams were any aid, right? Nobody else could
do the job? :-)

You didn't really address what was stated, did you?

I guess he missed the part where Jim said "some"...

Civil Air Patrol was tasked for that mission. Over 400 responders in four
Wings, active on HF, VHF-FM and VHF-Airband.

They were being good citizens. All those hams got their licenses so
they
could later Hunt for Space Shuttle Debris?

There are plenty of good citizens. Not all of them are equipped to to
what radio amateurs did in this case. Why the dodge?

You need to ask, Dave?

Pretending that amateur radio is "vital" is a lot of POLITICAL
bull**** and you know it.

What does it take for something to be "vital", Len?

Constant reading and listening to the ARRL. :-)

Whatsa matter? You couldn't think of an answer?

Amateur Radio IS vital.

Numerous federal and civil disaster relief agencies have said so...in
public, in writing and in person.

Of course those agencies forgot to consult with Lennie the Licenseless
Loser before making those statements. Of course, if they had, they would have
only laughed themselves into a stroke at this allegedly "educated" idiot's
musings.

The ARRL propaganda is - consistently - the SAME. It also seems to be
ineffective OUTSIDE of amateur radio. ARRL is constantly doing SELF-
PROMOTION and the government can see that as easily as anyone not in
amateur radio. ARRL has apparently begun to Believe itself in all that
propaganda and self-glorification.

ARRL just hasn't gotten into mainstream media with any of that noble and
glorious "technical innovation, education, emergency communications,"
let
alone the "recreation" part. The "public service" part is notably
lacking,
everywhere but at the ARRL and its output.

That's quite a rant, Leonard. There's a running QST item most months
which is called "Media Hits". What kind of items do you think it
highlights?

Amateur Radio was recently front page news and opening line teasers on all
local TV outlets after an ARISS mission with a local school was completed.

Just to name a few...(and a few more reasons that prove what a lying idiot
Leonard H. Anderson is...)

73

Steve, K4YZ

Steve Robeson K4YZ November 10th 04 10:52 AM
Subject: They just don't get it!
From: (Brian Kelly)
Date: 11/9/2004 8:44 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote in message
...

Leonard H. Anderson is a two faced putz. Period.

Now, now Steve, Christmas is coming, it's time to get into the spirit
and put these sorts of things behind us. Motion from the floor: "I
propose that we pass the hat to fund a gift certificate for Sweetums
for two hours of couch time at his shrink's office."

Do I hear a second?

Bah. Humbug.

A shrink is only good for people who know they have a problem and are
proactively seeking help. Leonard is beyond the reach of modern psychiatry.

But it was a benevolent offer, Brian...I'll try to keep a more open mind
as the holiday season draws near.

73

Steve, K4YZ

William November 10th 04 01:12 PM
(Hans K0HB) wrote in message . com...
 (Brian Kelly) wrote

Encouraging innovation isn't tough --- in my engineering group I ask
each engineer to spend 10% of their time (4 hours per week) as "PBI"
time ("Partially Baked Idea"). This is time to pursue personally
selected pet projects unrelated to their primary tasking, even unrelated
to our groups tasking. Once a quarter we hold a one day "off site in
blue jeans" meeting where individuals can grab the spotlight and "show
and tell" their PBI to the rest of the group. The effect on creativity
is marvelous, and also a great tool for identifying "up and comers"
whose creativity might be otherwise masked by the day-to-day drudge of
assigned tasking.

And they get paid for every minute they spend on their brainfarts.


Brian sees them as "brainfarts" and our company sees the program as a
particularly effective source of new product ideas. So much so that
in the past three fiscal years 18% of our new-product revenues had
their origins in the PBI-incubator.

Damned RIGHT they get paid for every minute, and it's money well
spent.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Phew! I thought you had taken up the Steve Baton to call me "liar and
coward" but then I realized that you spelled "Brian" correctly.

bb

N2EY November 10th 04 05:32 PM
Leo wrote in message . ..
On 09 Nov 2004 12:26:50 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 5 Nov 2004 17:31:32 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

snip

Here, from the FCC R&O, is what that money bought us:

"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio
frequencies warrant the special protection afforded
frequencies reserved for international aeronautical
and maritime safety operations. While we
recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist
in providing emergency communications," it described
typical amateur operations as "routine communications
and hobby activities."

Oh oh. We've been caught. The FCC said the dreaded "hobby" word.

Then we should grab that ball and run with it!

Run with what?

With a revised definition of what ham radio is all about, and its
importance in today's world.

To paraphrase Orwell, the FCC sees all license holders
as equal, but some are more equal than others.....amateur radio
apparently being on the 'less than equal' side of the
equation......non-essential, per se.

I don't know about the Orwellian part ("Animal Farm" reference
well-done and duly noted) but it's hard to argue that all of amateur
radio is more important or even equal with, say, maritime or
aeronautical safety communications. What I see FCC saying is just that
those safety communications deserve the most protection.

Of course the idea that *any* licensed service does not have absolute
protection from interference caused by an unlicensed, incidental
radiator is the real problem. And it's not a "science" problem but a
"political" problem.

Most of what goes over the internet is "routine communications and hobby
activities" isn't it?

...which has what relevance to the topic of amateur radio and BPL?

BPL is being touted as something we *need*, for some reason or other.
Why do we *need* high speed internet via BPL at all? Why is such
access so needed that licensed radio services must tolerate
interference from BPL systems?

IOW, what will BPL do that is so much more important - more "vital" -
than ham radio and other licensed radio services?

Jim, it looks like your "it's an avocation, not a hobby" arguement
didn't work - they seem to have seen right through it and figured out
what Amateur Radio is anyway! Nice try, though.

I say we go forward on all fronts - hobby, avocation, public service,
education, emergency comms, tinkering, advancing SOTA, etc. If they're gonna
call us hobbyists, then make it a badge of honor, same as was done with the
title "ham operator".

Nice flag waving, Jim, but is there a strategy behind that lofty
statement?

I'm following K0HB's "PBI" concept. Come up with ideas and see where
they lead.

Go forward how, with what, to whom, and to what goals and
objectives?

Publicity, for one. How we present ourselves to Congress, the FCC, and
our BPL opponents, for another.

I've seen plenty of "Sportsmen for Bush" and "Sportsmen for Kerry"
bumperstickers. By folks who hunt and fish for "a hobby".

Or was that just a "one for the Gipper" thing that you
thought sounded real cool?

Nope.

The regulatory folks have made it pretty clear - do you have a plan to
have them overruled somehow? By whom? - the decision on BPL is
entirely within their sphere of control.

Congress is one avenue. Another is simply to make amateur radio more
visible and better understood.

And this goes beyond the BPL battle. Take CC&R struggles - would they try to
ban other "hobbies"?

CC&Rs are outside the jurisdiction of the FCC, I believe.....

Exactly!

I like the term "antenna-hugger" myself.

Great! Just wait until the FCC helps the ARRL complete the sequel to
their most popular book (entitled "2 Meters And Down - Amateur Radio
In The 21st Century"). The little antennas for our only remaining
bands will be much easier to hug!

Actually, I see the VHF/UHF allocations as being much more threatened
by reallocation than HF.

---

The phrase I object to is "*just* a hobby" - which denies the components of
public service, education, etc.

Which, unfortunately, is what the FCC R&O quoted above boils down to -
no special protection warranted, it's just a hobby activity.

*Most* amateur communications aren't emergency communications. Never
have been.

The
emergency communications aspect was dismissed pretty neatly in their
statement.....the condescending "while we recognize..." line.

My point is simply that the FCC isn't buying the argument that we hams
need complete protection from BPL because we *sometimes* do emergency
communications. Neither do the CC&R folks. So we need a new tactic.
Like the "Sportsmen for X" folks. Part of which is a revised
definition that shows how unique and valuable a resource amateur radio
is - just like the park system.

Even though I'll probably never visit most of the nation's parks, they
are of value to me.

73 de Jim, N2EY


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