In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A.

Which is the most competitive entry class!

Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

Yup!

Interesting stats in the write up:

- Total QSOs reported: 1,326,122
- Increase of almost 200,000 compared to 2003.
- Almost 50,000 more CW QSOs
- About 22% more 'phone QSOs
- 20,940 digital QSOs = about 67% more than 2003 and a new record.

7-1/2 months to the next one!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:



Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!



. . . 10-4 . . ?

10-4? Oy!

- Mike KB3EIA -

A number of near space launches were not held this past weekend:

ASTRO-1 was not launched.

go here to see what they did not launch and did not do:

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...O-01/INDEX.htm

They didn't use a Kaymont latex balloon to not launch their 4.4 pound
payload.

Some pictures of the payload and balloon that they didn't use to not
launch are he

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...to_gallery.htm

remember it's a long link, so pay attention to the wrap.


The launch, or not launch, was the first for this group, and they had
some telemetry problems. From what telemetry was functioning, they
estimated that they reached over 100,000 feet. All in all, not too bad
an effort for no launch.


Other groups that were not launching this past weekend, and some that
they won't be launching in the coming weeks:

http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/A...ouncements.htm


These folks (SSOK) haven't been launching balloons since 1992:

http://www.petesias.com/balloons.htm

It appears the the Civil Air Patrol is not launching these things either!

http://www.capnspace.org/Missions/?dir=cns-001

Note that they had to delay the date that they don't launch their second
mission to December 4th. Weird things happen when you don't launch these
things.

The Civil Air Patrol effort looks like a *very* well done effort.
Perhaps a model. I may contact the local CAP and see if they might be
interested.

Mea culpas on the sarcasm, but this is just too weird.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.

Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

. . WTF . . ?!

I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt . .


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A.

Which is the most competitive entry class!

Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

Yup!

Interesting stats in the write up:

- Total QSOs reported: 1,326,122
- Increase of almost 200,000 compared to 2003.
- Almost 50,000 more CW QSOs
- About 22% more 'phone QSOs
- 20,940 digital QSOs = about 67% more than 2003 and a new record.

7-1/2 months to the next one!

73 de Jim, N2EY


The W8CAL Marshall County, WV ARES bunch nailed 16th or 17th place, way
up from near the bottom of the 5A pack. It would have helped if the
four SSB stations could have averaged more than about 100 QSOs each. I
dunno if N8NN and I are going to do it again next year. We may go back
to having it out here as a 1B entry.

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo wrote:

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:



Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!

Yes, it was incredibly funny, yet there are those who think that there
is a lack of humor in r.r.a.p.

I like W3RV's idea. I thought it might be more appropriate to consider
naming the vehicle itself "Leonard" but I was advised that there is
already a gas bag with that name.

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo wrote:

A number of near space launches were not held this past weekend:

ASTRO-1 was not launched.

go here to see what they did not launch and did not do:

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...O-01/INDEX.htm

They didn't use a Kaymont latex balloon to not launch their 4.4 pound
payload.

Some pictures of the payload and balloon that they didn't use to not
launch are he

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...to_gallery.htm

remember it's a long link, so pay attention to the wrap.

The launch, or not launch, was the first for this group, and they had
some telemetry problems. From what telemetry was functioning, they
estimated that they reached over 100,000 feet. All in all, not too bad
an effort for no launch.

Other groups that were not launching this past weekend, and some that
they won't be launching in the coming weeks:

http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/A...ouncements.htm

These folks (SSOK) haven't been launching balloons since 1992:

http://www.petesias.com/balloons.htm

It appears the the Civil Air Patrol is not launching these things either!

http://www.capnspace.org/Missions/?dir=cns-001

Note that they had to delay the date that they don't launch their second
mission to December 4th. Weird things happen when you don't launch these
things.

The Civil Air Patrol effort looks like a *very* well done effort.
Perhaps a model. I may contact the local CAP and see if they might be
interested.

Mea culpas on the sarcasm, but this is just too weird.

Mike,

The 1986 OH0MD/OJ0 team on Market Reef was really reluctant to let its
balloon go so we tethered it with some light nylon cord with very light
gauge magnet wire wound around it--enough for just about 5/8 wave on
160m.
The balloon stayed up for several days, enabling us to make the first
ever OJ0 QSOs to North America on top band. We carried a helium tank
with us. With the arrival of a very large storm, the balloon beat
itself to death on the granite rocks.

The Ohio State University Amateur Radio Club, W8LT used a helium-filled
kytoon for some years for supporting antennas in 160m contests. Old
QST's from the 70's and 80's have photos.

Dave K8MN

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.


Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?



I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt .


Thanks for the bluntness Brian. I always appreciate it.

I will be likewise blunt. You are completely wrong about the people
doing (or not doing) this. You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham. Given
those facts, I'll take your judgment of my qualifications to do this
thing under advisement.

Be ****ed or hate me, it's how it is.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dave Heil wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:




Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.



I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!


Yes, it was incredibly funny, yet there are those who think that there
is a lack of humor in r.r.a.p.

I like W3RV's idea. I thought it might be more appropriate to consider
naming the vehicle itself "Leonard" but I was advised that there is
already a gas bag with that name.

I still might.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.

Of course, but 85Km out is ~280,000 MSL and the few atmospheric
*particles* and manmade *objects* which exist or pass thru that
altitude can get radiation-heated to pretty high temps. The temps of
the space *between* those particles and objects however is 'way down
the Kelvin scale. Your stated goal is 100,000 MSL which is only 30Km
out where all objects and particles are bloody friggin' cold no matter
what as the density of the atmosphere increases and blocks radiation
heating from the sun and conduction and convective cooling
increasingly prevails vs. radiation heating/cooling. So what's the
point to your geting into what's up at 85Km since a balloon ain't even
gonna come close to bobbing up to 85Km?

If your payload capsule is engineered properly for an ascent to FL 100
and back down Leonard will be OK which is really what matters. Back to
auditing a Heat Transfer 101 class for you Good Buddy.


Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

By the way post facto it finally dawned on me that I screwed that
statement up *big* time. Chase it down, spank me good for the screwup
and get even.


. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere

.. . . See above . . .

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.

?? I thought we were deep into ballooning ping-pong ball experiments
for the kids and gloming some brownie points for ham radio in the
process. Is it me again or did something got lost around here when I
wasn't looking?


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?

Those of us who are big into bouncing our signals around the planet
have been there since WHEN? Those who don't know about it are not my
problem.


I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt .


Thanks for the bluntness Brian. I always appreciate it.

I will be likewise blunt. You are completely wrong about the people
doing (or not doing) this. You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham. Given
those facts, I'll take your judgment of my qualifications to do this
thing under advisement.

Be ****ed or hate me, it's how it is.

Cool off and settle down Mike, I'm completely incapable of getting
****ed off much less hating any USENET poster. Particulary in this
off-the-wall ham radio based collection of particularly Odd Units.
Stick yer head up and sombody is gonna snipe ya for jollies and ya
handle it. So leave yer thin skin home and duck when you post here and
welcome to RRAP where pud-yanking is the name of the game.

That's how it is.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv