In article , Leo
writes:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:45:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:
snip

I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I
see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?)

Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration
and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it!

Heh heh heh. Leo, my thoughts exactly on this "project."

There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well
done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-)

Nonsense. Anyone needing all that demonstrated request for
emotional sustenance prior to beginning indicates - usually -
that they really aren't in this for the long (and expensive) haul.

I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice
indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim
has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his
own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your
project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to
this goal. In fact, you seem to be following the example of your
mentor here a bit, joining him in the return fire. Are you trying to
keep the arguement alive, or are you really interested in ballooning?

As I've written in here, free ballooning has been going on in
North America for over two centuries. It isn't "rocket science"
since lots and lots of folks have already done it...most without
any need for amateur radio whatevers.

The "arguments" against me MUST LIVE since the "long livers"
are nearly all PCTAs and I'm against the morse code test for any
radio license by any nations' administration. That tenuous thread,
plus the rabid intensity of the PCTA to maintain the code test that
They had to take is the life-force spark to damn any comments by
me totally divorced from any ballooning discussion. :-)

Some required managerial basics on free ballooning: Know the
environment (the atmosphere) from long-published data on air
pressure, density, and temperature to high altitudes, at least in
general (finer data can be obtained when solidifying requirements);
have some ball-park ideas of costs of balloons, their required
sizes (derived from atmospheric data) versus expected payloads
and support structures plus co$t; get some ball-park figures on
lifting gas cost, suppliers, filling apparatus, and transport to the
balloon launch area; check into all appropriate government
agencies for permissions, possible insurance requirements for a
group (especially if flammable lifting gas is used), interference
concerns on radio, both incoming and outgoing, that might affect
operations of balloon telemetry and "science" payload needs. The
latter includes some reasonably-accurate way to skin-track the
balloon flight by government organizations in some areas for
reasons of safety-of-flight for other air craft...as well as a way to
truly prove an altitude figure achieved (for both payload needs and
later bragging rights).

All those needs certainly seem apparent for a group effort in this
very non-amateur environment of our thin atmosphere layer. That
will be found to be true when the co$ts are looked into and found
to be a bit more than gasoline cost of driving to-from a launch site.
One could expect that a single launch, even a test flight could go
beyond $100 (all-total) a flight minimum. There's NO guarantee
that all balloons are recoverable and reuseable, despite all the
little glued-on "return address" tags.

And, what would you like from us? - encouragement, ideas, assistance -
or just phony and gratuitous praise and accolades? You posted this
here for a reason - please advise.

My opinion is that "gratuitous praise and accolades" are THE
thing desired. Especially all the kudos for "a job well done" even
before the first steps are taken! :-)

If "others" have done it, then all those who Want to do it MUST
ALREADY be successful, even without doing so themselves! :-)

Known: Others have already DONE this. Project "managers" NEED
to go to them and get acquainted with what they will need, how-to-do-
it advice taken in, find out what their costs are, and a myriad of
data involved in such ballooning apart from the radio payload
details. All that radio "science" is useless without the transport up
into those higher altitudes to perform all that "science."

Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......?

It's all a CONSPIRACY of the NCTA infidels and fedayeen hijacking
all the enthusiasm and all-one-needs-is-emotional-outlook to get it
done!!! [damn the practical details, not needed in fantasyland]

Anyone against a PCTA dreaming up something is "obviously" in
"hatred of all amateur radio" or the equivalent and must be a kid,
a lid, or a space cadet!!! :-)

[aside: all astronauts not yet in space must be 'space cadets?']

Like Brian Kelly, "I'm outa this thread!" :-)

In article , Leo
writes:

On 24 Nov 2004 11:31:58 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you
did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also
demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a
person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a
very good thing.

tnx! Too bad I'm so far away.

LOL! The old 'Oh, that's a very interesting project, and I'd love to
help, but I can't....." routine. Hams drive all night to get to
places like Dayton to fish through piles of junk that they don't need
(been there, done that, impressed the wife to no end when I returned
with a trunk full of stuff!). If you were as interested as you say,
you'd find a way!

More BS, I suspect.....not on your agenda.

I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I
see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?)

If so, he's just like Len....

(sigh) - You sure live in a small world, Jim - all who agree with your
Pollyanna-like views are OK, and everyone who sees through the BS and
calls you on it must be 'Len'.

I am (in their views) "in hatred of all amateur radio" because I
don't agree with their views on morse code testing. :-)

Anyone who disagrees with these gods of radio and morsemanship
are all named "Len" (de facto if not de jure).

Ergo, any and all postings not yielding immediate gratuitous praise
and high-fives for a "concept" NOT yet done are "in error" and do
not deserve to share the same atmosphere...because all are named
"Len." :-)

Sigh...

Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'!

Sky Pilot.

:-) [haven't heard that term in a while]

Leo wrote in message . ..

Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'!

Sky Pilot.


73, Leo

Sky Pilot, huh?

Rev Jim just doesn't suit him anymore.

On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:00 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 21 Nov 2004 13:13:12 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

Leo wrote in message
...
On 20 Nov 2004 01:57:21 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:
snip

I ran into a great blonde in the Toronto airport terminal who was a
Mountie. Told her didn't look much like Sergeant Preston to me and
asked her where her horse was. She asked me when I was going back
where I came from.

Heh - I can picture that! Bet she never heard that one before..... :0

Seriously, though, in downtown Toronto in the 70s, I frequently had
tourists stop me and ask where they could see an igloo (2,500 miles
north would be a great place to start!) and where all of the trees
were (!).

Doesn't seem to happen much anymore - maybe the Internet fixed that!.

Blame the motion picture business. All the trees and igloos got
moved to Vancouver where a "new Hollywood" is growing. :-)

Actually, the motion picture business in Toronto has been booming for
quite a few years now as well - still no igloos, but there seems to be
a shoot going on just about every day downtown (last week, I saw a
fake NYPD police car in front of the Royal York Hotel, and about 12
trailers parked along the street....even saw a US flag flying on the
flagpole of the old Toronto City Hall during one shoot - that was a
double-take moment...)


Or, all the trees were stolen by the western Washington state
folks and planted all over Puget Sound area. Folks in eastern
Washington state were too honest and that's why that part of
the state seems like open prarie... :-)

Or, blame the "space aliens" who got out of Area 51 and went up
to Vancouver to work in the Stargate and Atlantis productions. :-)

Hmmm...maybe if Kelly had purchased some Viagra from Canada
he could have made out better with Amanda Tapping? :-)

Hey - that girl could put Viagra out of business!

"The world wonders..."



73, Leo

On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:03 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 24 Nov 2004 11:31:58 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you
did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also
demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a
person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a
very good thing.

tnx! Too bad I'm so far away.

LOL! The old 'Oh, that's a very interesting project, and I'd love to
help, but I can't....." routine. Hams drive all night to get to
places like Dayton to fish through piles of junk that they don't need
(been there, done that, impressed the wife to no end when I returned
with a trunk full of stuff!). If you were as interested as you say,
you'd find a way!

More BS, I suspect.....not on your agenda.

I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I
see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?)

If so, he's just like Len....

(sigh) - You sure live in a small world, Jim - all who agree with your
Pollyanna-like views are OK, and everyone who sees through the BS and
calls you on it must be 'Len'.

I am (in their views) "in hatred of all amateur radio" because I
don't agree with their views on morse code testing. :-)

Anyone who disagrees with these gods of radio and morsemanship
are all named "Len" (de facto if not de jure).

Ergo, any and all postings not yielding immediate gratuitous praise
and high-fives for a "concept" NOT yet done are "in error" and do
not deserve to share the same atmosphere...because all are named
"Len." :-)

Sigh...

Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'!

Sky Pilot.

:-) [haven't heard that term in a while]

It's way back in my past too - fits quite well here on at least two
levels!





73, Leo

On 24 Nov 2004 20:33:59 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On 23 Nov 2004 08:26:11 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:
snip
I'm convinced he is a VE3 named Leo. Your mileage is obviously varying
for some mysterious reason.

I ham, therefore I am


Excellent. High philosophic potential...almost as if Voltaire wrote it.

Except Voltaire didn't...Leo's phrase is current.

It's all so complex and there is an impedance to humor shown by
others. They resist humor and show negative reactance to it,
oddly demonstrating a lack of capacity to appreciate humor...and
all its inductive reasoning...standing in the waves but enjoying not.

RMS: These serious folks are Rutting around Meanly, the Source
for their displeasure. Their frequency varies, no stability.

Watts new, Leo? :-)

Ooh - that Hertz! Please....no Mho!


["when puns are outlawed, only outlaws will have puns..."]



73, Leo

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:18:20 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

3. I hope you don't mind, but if Jim and I continue to discuss the
post, we will do just that. If you do mind, then you are free to not
participate. If you want to participate, then please do.

I certainly don't mind at all, Mike - thanks for asking. By all
means, if you feel that you have a continuing need for the deep
technical insight and engineering assistance that Jim has been
providing to you so far, then do indeed proceed with my best wishes.

However, if you would like to have some control over whether others
participate, not participate, or object to things said in this public
forum, I'd respectfully suggest that you move the discussion off line.
If it's just going to be the two of you, the telephone might be the
best tool for the job....

Otherwise, correspondum emptor.....let the poster beware!


I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice
indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim
has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his
own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your
project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to
this goal.

Len is a big boy, and seems to return the favors.

Which has nothing at all to do with my statement above.

Your statement does seem to condone the behaviour. Interesting. As
they say, if you ain't part of the solution....



Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......?


All threads here eventually become Steve versus Brian! 8^)

Not all threads, Mike....quite a few become Jim versus Len. Or Jim
versus whomever he believes might be Len, a pseudo-Len, or Len-like in
some way that he doesn't like!

Then again, Jim may be in a position to make one valuable contribution
to the project - you might be able to talk him out of the leftover
cabinet from his gutted BC-221, and use it as a field box to carry the
balloon and payload to site! 8*p



- Mike KB3EIA -


73, Leo

On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

snip

Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration
and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it!

Heh heh heh. Leo, my thoughts exactly on this "project."

There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well
done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-)
snip

And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A
Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted
prominently in his cubicle 8*p ).

++++++

The Six Phases Of A Project

1. Enthusiasm

2. Disillusionment

3. Panic

4. Search For The Guilty

5. Punishment Of The Innocent

6. Praise And Accolades For The Non-Participants

++++++

Judging by this benchmark, this project is clearly in Phase One! :*0





73, Leo

Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it!
From: Leo
Date: 11/25/2004 5:19 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well
done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-)
snip

And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A
Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted
prominently in his cubicle 8*p ).

Actaully, Leo, I think you hit upon the very summation of Lennie the
Loser's Amateur Radio career:

The Six Phases Of A Project

Subtitled: "Lennie's Career in 'Professional' and Amateur Radio"

1. Enthusiasm

Lennie dove into his "army career" as a radio mechanic. It was
simple...The Army taught him how to read the maintenance manual and he followed
the instructions. Considering the era in which he got involved, there was
still a "whole wide world" out there for him to investigate. No doubt a senior
NCO buttered Lennie in preparation for getting his "X" on re-enlistment papers,
so I am sure he (Lennie) was sure of his invincibility as a radio mechanic.

2. Disillusionment

Faced with the "real world" obligations (education, training, OJT, etc),
it must have appeared daunting to Lennie to even get past the Maytag repairman.
While Lennie was no doubt "smart enough" to do it, Lennie's been a short-cut
kinda person all his life. Unfortunately all those short cuts, laid end to
end, made the trip a lot longer than he envisoned.

3. Panic

Realizing that he'd never be able to stack-up next to REAL engineers,
Lennie latched himself onto the coattails of men and woman who DID have "The
Right Stuff" in engineering, and hoped-to-high-heavens thet no one caught on to
his game. Looking for yet another shortcut to vindication Lennie saddles up to
an Amateur Radio publisher in hopes of getting his name in print.

4. Search For The Guilty

There's always been "someone" who was responsible for Lennie's inability
to gain the respectability and recognition for his wonderfulness. "WAIT!
Those !@#$% ham radio operators! THEY did it! They kept me from the fame and
fortune I so richly deserve!" This due, no doubt, to the UNDERwhelming arrival
of fan mail from his several published bylines in the aforementioned Amateur
Radio journal...a journal that went belly-up while Lennie was an "Associate
Editor".

5. Punishment Of The Innocent

Lennie's on-going berating in RRAP says it all. "We" did it to him, and
now, By God, he's gonna make sure we "pay for it". Everyone except Lennie is
responsible for Lennie's failures in Amateur Radio. The "Mighty Morsemen",
"The ARRL", "the Elitists", the "jackbooted thugs", etc etc etc. Forget that
Lennie might actually be well received at the local Amateur Radio club with his
"professional background"...taking the same tests that "mere mortal" citizens
take might further wound his already overinflated ego.

6. Praise And Accolades For The Non-Participants

If there ever was a "non-participant" in Amateur Radio, it's The Loser of
Lanark. Of course, however, it's "professional engineers' such as himself that
knows "all about" the "real radio world", and no one save he and his
colleagues knows anything about radio other than Part 97.

Uh huh.

73

Steve, K4YZ

On 26 Nov 2004 00:41:01 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote:

Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it!
From: Leo
Date: 11/25/2004 5:19 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well
done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-)
snip

And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A
Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted
prominently in his cubicle 8*p ).

Actaully, Leo, I think you hit upon the very summation of Lennie the
Loser's Amateur Radio career:

The Six Phases Of A Project

Subtitled: "Lennie's Career in 'Professional' and Amateur Radio"
snip

Now then, does anyone have any further questions on the subject of
post hijacking? 8*p

73

Steve, K4YZ


73, Leo