Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?


So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote


This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for
electromagfetic waves to travel through the air anyway.


It's not *odd* at all, Mike.

It's "The RRAP Way"

A line from an old Cosby skit comes to mind, imperfectly remembered, but
goes something like this:

"And there were these cavemen sitting in their
caves watching their kerosene powered TV's
by candlelight, muttering "They ain't never
gonna invent *radios*"'

Or the admonishment of Bokonon, from KVG's "Cat's Cradle"

"Beware of the man who works hard to learn
something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser
than before. He is full of murderous resentment
of people who are ignorant without having come
by their ignorance the hard way."

I'm not into baloons, but I admire the spriit of your project. Good
luck to you.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new graound here, it's more like a pile of labor than a
real design challenge. If the instrument capsule is sealed at sea
level and flown to 100,000 feet every six inch by six inch x by 3/4
inch thick patch of the foam board will have to survive a 470+/- pound
outward load. Which I doubt will work. So the capsule should be sealed
then evacuated to say 30,000 feet to get those stresses down. I can
take it anywhere from here but I ain't.

Or maybe it doesn't have to be sealed airtight at all. Perhaps all that really
matters is temperature of the components.

Sometimes dumb luck and enthusiasim gets the driveway mechanics there
faster than applied physics does.

"If it happens, it must be possible"

73 de Jim, N2EY

btw, December QST has Field Day results. W3RV/3 with second op N2EY took the
top spot in our entry class, according to the line scores.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

In my industry, we have a saying:

"If it happens, it must be possible"

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

When the ARRL sent Paul Godley to Great Britain in 1921 to listen for American
hams on 200 meters, at least some of the professionals of the day said it
couldn't be done. And they were right, in a way: They didn't know about
ionospheric refraction, and that the model they used to predict signal strength
at a distance for longer waves wasn't valid for 200 meters.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)

It occurs to me that the problems of cold and high altitude are interrelated. I
don;t think high altitude *in itself* is a problem for most modern electronics
(hard drives are a notable exception). The problem of high altitude operation
is, I think, a *thermal* problem - "room temperature" thin air doesn't carry
away enough heat, and components can overheat due to this lack. But if the thin
air is forty below, it may be adequate with some insulation. Etc.

As for lifting capacity and other problems: They've obviously been solved
before. Hydrogen may be usable - the package doesn't have any spark-generating
components, and no humans are aboard. ("oh the humanity")

The only possibly-insurmountable problem I can see is airspace. And that's
curable geographically. As in, you might have to go to Ohio or Indiana to
launch.
Big deal - that's what minivans are for.

I wish you good luck and all success, Mike.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote


This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for
electromagfetic waves to travel through the air anyway.



It's not *odd* at all, Mike.

It's "The RRAP Way"

Heh, and a strange way it is!

A line from an old Cosby skit comes to mind, imperfectly remembered, but
goes something like this:

"And there were these cavemen sitting in their
caves watching their kerosene powered TV's
by candlelight, muttering "They ain't never
gonna invent *radios*"'

Bill was a wise guy in so many ways.

Or the admonishment of Bokonon, from KVG's "Cat's Cradle"

"Beware of the man who works hard to learn
something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser
than before. He is full of murderous resentment
of people who are ignorant without having come
by their ignorance the hard way."

Snort! That one fits.

I'm not into baloons, but I admire the spriit of your project. Good
luck to you.


Thanks. - Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new graound here, it's more like a pile of labor than a
real design challenge. If the instrument capsule is sealed at sea
level and flown to 100,000 feet every six inch by six inch x by 3/4
inch thick patch of the foam board will have to survive a 470+/- pound
outward load. Which I doubt will work. So the capsule should be sealed
then evacuated to say 30,000 feet to get those stresses down. I can
take it anywhere from here but I ain't.


Or maybe it doesn't have to be sealed airtight at all. Perhaps all that really
matters is temperature of the components.


Sometimes dumb luck and enthusiasim gets the driveway mechanics there
faster than applied physics does.


"If it happens, it must be possible"

73 de Jim, N2EY

btw, December QST has Field Day results. W3RV/3 with second op N2EY took the
top spot in our entry class, according to the line scores.

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A. Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Leo
writes:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:



It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?

Not to mention Standard Atmosphere tables, models, etc. :-)

One is NOT going to reach 100 kilofeet altitude using 8-foot
latex weather balloons, regardless of the source.

If those could reach it, they would have done so long ago. Hint:
they aren't designed to reach way way up there to "near space"
altitudes.

So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

Tsk. Mike is into the bad movie dialogue of years ago wherein a
bunch of kids in a barn would exclaim, "We can put on a Show!"
and the movie then cuts to many song and dance numbers which
are held on a much larger "stage" than could be put in such a
barn. :-)

"Will and idea" won't work by itself. A little bit of background into
the physics will be the baseplate of all future building (and flying)
decisions.

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

Tsk. Mike is getting "odd" in the pique-ness of his complaints.

"Others have done it," so therefore Mike "can do it." Problem is,
Mike has not yet done it.

There's a big gulf between "others have done it" and actually
getting out and DOING it. Publicity releases made ahead of
time need the psychology of marketing to do an effective
selling job.

A case example is the website of the "Grand Challenge," the
autonomous vehicle "race" from Barstow, CA, to Las Vegas, NV.
Lots and lots of publicity ahead of time, all the entrants were
VERY confident, etc. NONE of them finished. Only about
a third of them managed to get started.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)

Fine. MIke, GO for it. Let us know when you've discovered how to
balloon things into the world of reality. It's your helium. Ought to
be a gas.

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?

1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".

Nice try no cigar.



I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.

By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

.. . . 10-4 . . ?



- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A.

Which is the most competitive entry class!

Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

Yup!

Interesting stats in the write up:

- Total QSOs reported: 1,326,122
- Increase of almost 200,000 compared to 2003.
- Almost 50,000 more CW QSOs
- About 22% more 'phone QSOs
- 20,940 digital QSOs = about 67% more than 2003 and a new record.

7-1/2 months to the next one!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:



Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!



. . . 10-4 . . ?

10-4? Oy!

- Mike KB3EIA -

A number of near space launches were not held this past weekend:

ASTRO-1 was not launched.

go here to see what they did not launch and did not do:

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...O-01/INDEX.htm

They didn't use a Kaymont latex balloon to not launch their 4.4 pound
payload.

Some pictures of the payload and balloon that they didn't use to not
launch are he

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...to_gallery.htm

remember it's a long link, so pay attention to the wrap.


The launch, or not launch, was the first for this group, and they had
some telemetry problems. From what telemetry was functioning, they
estimated that they reached over 100,000 feet. All in all, not too bad
an effort for no launch.


Other groups that were not launching this past weekend, and some that
they won't be launching in the coming weeks:

http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/A...ouncements.htm


These folks (SSOK) haven't been launching balloons since 1992:

http://www.petesias.com/balloons.htm

It appears the the Civil Air Patrol is not launching these things either!

http://www.capnspace.org/Missions/?dir=cns-001

Note that they had to delay the date that they don't launch their second
mission to December 4th. Weird things happen when you don't launch these
things.

The Civil Air Patrol effort looks like a *very* well done effort.
Perhaps a model. I may contact the local CAP and see if they might be
interested.

Mea culpas on the sarcasm, but this is just too weird.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.

Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

. . WTF . . ?!

I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt . .


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Cool! W3YA (W3GA) finished somwhere in th etop third of 2A.

Which is the most competitive entry class!

Not bad
considering the number of new operators we had. And a pleasant time was
had by all!

Yup!

Interesting stats in the write up:

- Total QSOs reported: 1,326,122
- Increase of almost 200,000 compared to 2003.
- Almost 50,000 more CW QSOs
- About 22% more 'phone QSOs
- 20,940 digital QSOs = about 67% more than 2003 and a new record.

7-1/2 months to the next one!

73 de Jim, N2EY


The W8CAL Marshall County, WV ARES bunch nailed 16th or 17th place, way
up from near the bottom of the 5A pack. It would have helped if the
four SSB stations could have averaged more than about 100 QSOs each. I
dunno if N8NN and I are going to do it again next year. We may go back
to having it out here as a 1B entry.

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo wrote:

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:



Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!

Yes, it was incredibly funny, yet there are those who think that there
is a lack of humor in r.r.a.p.

I like W3RV's idea. I thought it might be more appropriate to consider
naming the vehicle itself "Leonard" but I was advised that there is
already a gas bag with that name.

Dave K8MN

Mike Coslo wrote:

A number of near space launches were not held this past weekend:

ASTRO-1 was not launched.

go here to see what they did not launch and did not do:

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...O-01/INDEX.htm

They didn't use a Kaymont latex balloon to not launch their 4.4 pound
payload.

Some pictures of the payload and balloon that they didn't use to not
launch are he

http://www.mae.okstate.edu/aero/astr...to_gallery.htm

remember it's a long link, so pay attention to the wrap.

The launch, or not launch, was the first for this group, and they had
some telemetry problems. From what telemetry was functioning, they
estimated that they reached over 100,000 feet. All in all, not too bad
an effort for no launch.

Other groups that were not launching this past weekend, and some that
they won't be launching in the coming weeks:

http://users.crosspaths.net/wallio/A...ouncements.htm

These folks (SSOK) haven't been launching balloons since 1992:

http://www.petesias.com/balloons.htm

It appears the the Civil Air Patrol is not launching these things either!

http://www.capnspace.org/Missions/?dir=cns-001

Note that they had to delay the date that they don't launch their second
mission to December 4th. Weird things happen when you don't launch these
things.

The Civil Air Patrol effort looks like a *very* well done effort.
Perhaps a model. I may contact the local CAP and see if they might be
interested.

Mea culpas on the sarcasm, but this is just too weird.

Mike,

The 1986 OH0MD/OJ0 team on Market Reef was really reluctant to let its
balloon go so we tethered it with some light nylon cord with very light
gauge magnet wire wound around it--enough for just about 5/8 wave on
160m.
The balloon stayed up for several days, enabling us to make the first
ever OJ0 QSOs to North America on top band. We carried a helium tank
with us. With the arrival of a very large storm, the balloon beat
itself to death on the granite rocks.

The Ohio State University Amateur Radio Club, W8LT used a helium-filled
kytoon for some years for supporting antennas in 160m contests. Old
QST's from the 70's and 80's have photos.

Dave K8MN

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.


Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?



I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt .


Thanks for the bluntness Brian. I always appreciate it.

I will be likewise blunt. You are completely wrong about the people
doing (or not doing) this. You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham. Given
those facts, I'll take your judgment of my qualifications to do this
thing under advisement.

Be ****ed or hate me, it's how it is.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dave Heil wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:




Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


1/Icarus, i. e., the reciprocal thereof . . .



The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


Nice try no cigar.



I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


By the way I have a ping-pong ball size experimental load for you if
you ever actually get past the RRAP bafflegab stage and do a launch.

Cockroachs are incredible little critters which reputedly can survive
environmental extremes (temps, pressure) for short periods, on the
order of a few hours. They're everywhere and finding a sturdy specimen
is a no-brainer out in the landfills. When you're ready to go let me
know and I'll grab one and name him "Leonard", package him properly
for a trip to near-space and pass the package to you.

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!


Yes, it was incredibly funny, yet there are those who think that there
is a lack of humor in r.r.a.p.

I like W3RV's idea. I thought it might be more appropriate to consider
naming the vehicle itself "Leonard" but I was advised that there is
already a gas bag with that name.

I still might.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Brian Kelly wrote:

. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.

Of course, but 85Km out is ~280,000 MSL and the few atmospheric
*particles* and manmade *objects* which exist or pass thru that
altitude can get radiation-heated to pretty high temps. The temps of
the space *between* those particles and objects however is 'way down
the Kelvin scale. Your stated goal is 100,000 MSL which is only 30Km
out where all objects and particles are bloody friggin' cold no matter
what as the density of the atmosphere increases and blocks radiation
heating from the sun and conduction and convective cooling
increasingly prevails vs. radiation heating/cooling. So what's the
point to your geting into what's up at 85Km since a balloon ain't even
gonna come close to bobbing up to 85Km?

If your payload capsule is engineered properly for an ascent to FL 100
and back down Leonard will be OK which is really what matters. Back to
auditing a Heat Transfer 101 class for you Good Buddy.


Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

By the way post facto it finally dawned on me that I screwed that
statement up *big* time. Chase it down, spank me good for the screwup
and get even.


. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere

.. . . See above . . .

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.

?? I thought we were deep into ballooning ping-pong ball experiments
for the kids and gloming some brownie points for ham radio in the
process. Is it me again or did something got lost around here when I
wasn't looking?


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?

Those of us who are big into bouncing our signals around the planet
have been there since WHEN? Those who don't know about it are not my
problem.


I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt .


Thanks for the bluntness Brian. I always appreciate it.

I will be likewise blunt. You are completely wrong about the people
doing (or not doing) this. You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham. Given
those facts, I'll take your judgment of my qualifications to do this
thing under advisement.

Be ****ed or hate me, it's how it is.

Cool off and settle down Mike, I'm completely incapable of getting
****ed off much less hating any USENET poster. Particulary in this
off-the-wall ham radio based collection of particularly Odd Units.
Stick yer head up and sombody is gonna snipe ya for jollies and ya
handle it. So leave yer thin skin home and duck when you post here and
welcome to RRAP where pud-yanking is the name of the game.

That's how it is.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!

"That's hot!"

. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere

Does other odd things too. Bouncy, bouncy!

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.

"That's hot!"

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.

A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Would you rather stick your hand into water heated to 200 degrees F or air
heated to 400 degrees?

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?

'Cause it's hot? ;-)

You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham.

This whole thread got me thinking about how balloons work and how much helium
costs and such. One thing I found out is that 1000 cu ft of helium can be had
for about $200. A bit of $$ for an individual launch but not much if split up
amongst a group.

Another thing was the lifting power at high altitudes and low pressures, and
the concept and behavior of a balloon open at the bottom that's not filled all
the way with gas. Fascinating.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...



Brian Kelly wrote:


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C.


Of course, but 85Km out is ~280,000 MSL and the few atmospheric
*particles* and manmade *objects* which exist or pass thru that
altitude can get radiation-heated to pretty high temps. The temps of
the space *between* those particles and objects however is 'way down
the Kelvin scale. Your stated goal is 100,000 MSL which is only 30Km
out where all objects and particles are bloody friggin' cold no matter
what as the density of the atmosphere increases and blocks radiation
heating from the sun and conduction and convective cooling
increasingly prevails vs. radiation heating/cooling. So what's the
point to your geting into what's up at 85Km since a balloon ain't even
gonna come close to bobbing up to 85Km?

If your payload capsule is engineered properly for an ascent to FL 100
and back down Leonard will be OK which is really what matters. Back to
auditing a Heat Transfer 101 class for you Good Buddy.


Yo for chrissake Mike, I just noticed this gem, 1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!


By the way post facto it finally dawned on me that I screwed that
statement up *big* time. Chase it down, spank me good for the screwup
and get even.

Nahh. People can make mistakes.




. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere


. . . See above . . .


If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.


?? I thought we were deep into ballooning ping-pong ball experiments
for the kids and gloming some brownie points for ham radio in the
process. Is it me again or did something got lost around here when I
wasn't looking?


Oh gawd, yes, Brian! This whole thread got started when I mentioned
that I was putting together this operation in response to Hans' telling
us about how Amateur radio is being marginalized. Then it turned into me
trying to tell the group about what we were trying to do amidst a couple
people that don't believe it can be done.

But since you were talking about the effects of the cold, I thought I
might point out just how weird things are "up there".

And it is hot in the neighborhood of the ionosphere.


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?


Those of us who are big into bouncing our signals around the planet
have been there since WHEN? Those who don't know about it are not my
problem.



I don't know how to water this down so I'll be blunt about it. You
really do need to consider biting the bullet and delegating the
technical aspects of this project to some technoid(s) and stick to
being the head cheerleader. Preferably before somebody gets hurt .


Thanks for the bluntness Brian. I always appreciate it.

I will be likewise blunt. You are completely wrong about the people
doing (or not doing) this. You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham. Given
those facts, I'll take your judgment of my qualifications to do this
thing under advisement.

Be ****ed or hate me, it's how it is.


Cool off and settle down Mike, I'm completely incapable of getting
****ed off much less hating any USENET poster. Particulary in this
off-the-wall ham radio based collection of particularly Odd Units.
Stick yer head up and sombody is gonna snipe ya for jollies and ya
handle it. So leave yer thin skin home and duck when you post here and
welcome to RRAP where pud-yanking is the name of the game.

That's how it is.


I apologize Brian. Call me incompetent any time you like. It was a
mistake to bring this subject up in here, I'll admit that.

I bring my hockey mentality in here most of the time. This was too much
of a crossover into my professional mentality. And it is apparent that
it won't be differentiated.


So I guess it's back to talking about the Morse code test! 8^)

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...


1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!


"That's hot!"


. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere


Does other odd things too. Bouncy, bouncy!

Space, or near space is a very strange place...

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


"That's hot!"


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.


Would you rather stick your hand into water heated to 200 degrees F or air
heated to 400 degrees?

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?


'Cause it's hot? ;-)

If it wasn't hot, we wouldn't have the ionization that allows us to
communicate all over the world on HF.



You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham.


This whole thread got me thinking about how balloons work and how much helium
costs and such. One thing I found out is that 1000 cu ft of helium can be had
for about $200. A bit of $$ for an individual launch but not much if split up
amongst a group.

And of course you don't need that much per typical launch.


Another thing was the lifting power at high altitudes and low pressures, and
the concept and behavior of a balloon open at the bottom that's not filled all
the way with gas. Fascinating.

Those balloons get BIG before bursting. I've seen some video of it. I
haven't seen what happens to the form of the zero-pressure balloons,
though. Certainly the zero-pressure balloons are a fascinating example
of a self regulating system.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:


Does other odd things too. Bouncy, bouncy!

Space, or near space is a very strange place...

'Cause it's hot? ;-)

If it wasn't hot, we wouldn't have the ionization that allows us to
communicate all over the world on HF.

bouncy bouncy

You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham.

This whole thread got me thinking about how balloons work and how much
helium
costs and such. One thing I found out is that 1000 cu ft of helium can be
had
for about $200. A bit of $$ for an individual launch but not much if split
up amongst a group.

And of course you don't need that much per typical launch.

So the cost is even less.

Another thing was the lifting power at high altitudes and low pressures,
and
the concept and behavior of a balloon open at the bottom that's not filled
all the way with gas. Fascinating.

Those balloons get BIG before bursting. I've seen some video of it. I
haven't seen what happens to the form of the zero-pressure balloons,
though. Certainly the zero-pressure balloons are a fascinating example
of a self regulating system.

With a closed rigid balloon (like the Hindenberg), the lift gas is at constant
volume, so the lift decreases with higher altitude and lower barometric
pressure and the maximum altitude is relatively low.

With a closed elastic balloon (like a stretchy latex balloon), the lift gas can
expand to a certain degree at higher altitudes, but must be at somewhat higher
pressure than the gas outside (because the gas inside must exert pressure on
the balloon walls to stretch them). With a very stretchy balloon, the decrease
in lift will obviously be much less than with a rigid balloon.

With an open-at-the-bottom balloon (like a bag from the dry cleaners), the lift
gas need be only at a very slightly higher pressure than the gas outside
(because the gas inside must support the walls of the balloon/bag). With a bag
that is much larger than the volume of gas at launch, the decrease in lift will
obviously be much less than with a rigid balloon or a stretchy balloon.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

I still might.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike, be nice.

I think you have a good project, and cannot understand why all these
"movers and shakers" of RRAP keep poo-pooing the idea. Maybe they are
paper tigers, code-tape Extra's, or just plain old windbags
themselves. Anyway, you have several of them in your backyard and I
haven't seen a single one throw in with you yet (but then I haven't
read all of the blabbering). Speaks volumes.

:((

My best advice is to associate the project with a Scouting
Troop/Venture Crew, or H.S. honors science class, etc, find a handful
of sponsors (easier when you have the scouting affiliation), and find
some motivated no-code Techs who aren't afraid of a challenge, or
maybe don't know enough to get out of the way.

;))

FWIW, the military has standing orders to assist the Scouts wherever
they can. They might be helpful in many ways, from lodging to launch
location to weather support. You could make a request to the Air
Force Weather Agency to have a Support Assistance Request (SAR) in
place to run the trajectory model and predict the final resting place
of your package (you supply launch time and ascent/descent rates),
preposition your recovery team in that vicinity, then adjust as
real-world conditions dictate.

Have Fun and Best of Luck, bb

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback. They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.


- Mike KB3EIA -

73, Leo

Leo wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Leo wrote:


On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:



Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.


Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback. They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.

Leo,

There is a world of difference between someone like Jim, who questions
and looks at my answers, and one member that says what I am considering
is impossible, and yet another that calls me incompetent.

And there is a lot of difference between me illustrating my points wit
web references, and finally getting annoyed after I am called incompetent.

Considering that to Len, this is an impossible task, and that Brian
Kelly has thinks I'm an idiot that is only suited for cheerleading, I
would have to say that they probably don't have anything to offer me in
my doomed project with which I am going to hurt someone.

My call.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

This whole thread got started when I mentioned
that I was putting together this operation in response to Hans' telling
us about how Amateur radio is being marginalized.

And you presented some very good ideas.

Then it turned into me
trying to tell the group about what we were trying to do amidst a couple
people that don't believe it can be done.

Also a bunch of us who know it can be done and is being done, but who didn't
know much about it until you brought up the idea.


I apologize Brian. Call me incompetent any time you like. It was a
mistake to bring this subject up in here, I'll admit that.

I disagree, Mike. Hans brought up a good *policy* subject, and you continued
the discussion.

I bring my hockey mentality in here most of the time. This was too much
of a crossover into my professional mentality. And it is apparent that
it won't be differentiated.

By whom?

At least W3RV was willing to look at the websites you mentioned, and realizes
it has been done. And while there may be some problems doing it in EPA, the
basic concept is workable.

Len apparently has simply *refused* to even look at the information you
presented.

So I guess it's back to talking about the Morse code test! 8^)

Nobody's done that for a while!

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Leo wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Leo wrote:


On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:



Len Over 21 wrote:



It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.


Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback. They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.

Leo,

There is a world of difference between someone like Jim, who questions
and looks at my answers, and one member that says what I am considering
is impossible, and yet another that calls me incompetent.

And there is a lot of difference between me illustrating my points wit
web references, and finally getting annoyed after I am called incompetent.

Considering that to Len, this is an impossible task, and that Brian
Kelly has thinks I'm an idiot that is only suited for cheerleading, I
would have to say that they probably don't have anything to offer me in
my doomed project with which I am going to hurt someone.

In article , Leo
writes:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:



It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback. They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.

Sigh...there will be NO "rational discussions" in THIS newsgrope
by PCTA with any NCTA. Hasn't been before, won't be ever until
the last code key is pried from cold, dead fingers. :-)

There have been - literally - millions of balloons lofted carrying
radio transmitters to high altitudes. Very, very few of those made
it past 50 kilofeet altitude...they weren't designed to do that and
part of that design-for-meteorology-by-metrology used ground-
level helium-filled closed balloons.

Basic information needed for any "manager" of this kind of thing
is the Standard Atmosphere data. [easy to get] Information on
the millions of radiosondes and (now) rawinsondes takes more
digging (it's of little interest to most other folks) but it's out there.
Next would be basic gas costs and what is required to get from
the supplier's bottle (costs a helluva lot more if the container is
not returned, empty or not) to the balloon itself. That's the
cross-over between work-that-must-be-known-and-done and task
logistics. The "manager" must eventually integrate all the on-board
equipment, cross-check that against lifting capability and make
sure that someone has checked operation VERY close to launch.
There has to be some kind of tracking of the balloon flight and
(unless one has a spare half-million-dollar optical tracker) it is
going out of sight in about ten minutes or maybe 15 even with 10
power binoculars. Supposedly the on-board GPS is doing that
tracking and reporting back accurately...but what if it suddenly
went non-operational? There needs be a procedural back-up.

Now, if the name of the game is Actual Amateur Experimentation,
then the "manager" ought to be able to sweet-talk his way into
getting his own experiment on board one of those already-proven
ham balloon flights. But, that may be defeating the whole object
of this blue-sky to near-blackness-of-space pipe dreaming...
the "manager" won't be manager any more and his name can't head
the list of experienced done-it-before types doing the actual flight.

Or, the project proposals for all this are pure pipe dreaming which
cannot Ever be negatively criticized without getting someone very
outraged for ANY sort of critique except high-fives. Dreaming
about something is fine. DOING it is quite another. Getting outraged
at not being psychologically sugar-boosted happens all the time in
here, realized by most but never by the proposer. :-)

Tsk.

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

They need a way to burst the balloon on command (i.e., nichrome wire
wrapped around the balloon plug, a receiver, and a battery),
metallized RADAR reflectors on the instrument chain, and FAA clearance
to launch.

The "command burst" receiver better have some secure coding to
it or some jughead will burst-command it beforehand.

Make that "CBer." There are no jugheads in the amateur service. 8^0

Riiiiighhhht...especially the morsemen who would never Ever
do any wrongness! :-)

A corner-cube reflector can be done with aluminum foil on a balsa
wood frame...just three mutually-perpendicular planes in that
corner cube, less than a foot in any dimension and still good for
skin tracking.

Maybe Kelly could diagram one on the back of an envelope for us?

I've made them. They weigh about a half ounce or so for
1-foot sides (good for reflections down to transponder
frequencies of 1.1 GHz and up to X band. Little ones for
X-band (and some C band) search/weather radar can be a
few inches on the side. Balsa wood strips for the edges
and ordinary kitchen aluminum foil for the reflector.

Corner cubes are extensively used in optics/laser benches.
Those are just three planes of reflectors, each perpendicular
to the others. No matter the azimuth or elevation of the
source, a reflection goes back on the same direction vector.
Ideal for a positive radar return in any azimuth or elevation.

According to Mike, the FAA is "accommodating." :-)

They've lost all sense of jumor since 9/11

The air controllers weren't too happy about the comms outage
(including the backup system) at the Los Angeles Center, either!

Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

They still do. It is called a rawindsonde and the rawin observations
are transmitted over the weather networks and shared worldwide. These
ballons often reach 10MB, but the payload is much smaller than most
EOS amateur projects.

I had one cluttering up the workshop since the 60s. Military type by
the markings. One-shot battery, a simple aneroid bellows driving a
printed-circuit rotary switch to kick in temp and moisture and light
sensors, all of them variable resistive types that changed the rep.
rate of a simple pulse modulator for the combination RCA pencil
triode and cavity oscillator assembly and inverted ground-plane
antenna.

That must be why the ground operator had headphones and counted
clicks. It's a lot different today.

Not quite. The USAF launched this one I had in the mid-1950s.
Guess where? :-)

They used a tracking radar receiver on the ground and recorded
the telemetry frequencies (of the rep rate) for altitude, temp,
and humidity. Azimuthal accuracy was as good as the boresight
of the tracking antenna (with some corroboration of altitude by
tracker's elevation at close ranges).

All of that went in the dumpster long ago except the
translucent plastic sleeve on the Xmter assembly went two weeks
ago (found it in a box of junk after sorting out the workshop).

Best place for all that stuff.

Perhaps. :-) RCA's tube works had a steady producion of
pencil triodes with crimped-on cavities formed by thin sheet
metal. They made millions of units over a couple decades.
Was a fairly cheap combination tube & cavity.

Those same pencil triodes were later used in a small boat
radar unit made by Bonzer. Flattened disk kind of radome,
had a planar array of helix antennas inside. A few miles range,
good for very small boats.

The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most

launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent
of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to

get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.

The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon
variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up

and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.

You need to do some math on that before envisioning such a "low-
cost" approach to get to 100 Kilofeet. Those 8-foot (typical)
"weather balloons" aren't going to get up that high, not even a mass
of them.

You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude.
It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.

Lots of expansion.

Tsk. Mike hasn't consulted a Standard Atmosphere table set yet.

100 kilofeet he will NEVER make with some surplus latex weather
balloons.

Get sponsor, buy new.

Mike is still NOT going to make 100 kilofeet altitude with "latex
weather balloons." [that was his original statement and, by Rules
of Engagement in this newsgrope, he MUST follow that EXACTLY
or be termed a "failure" or "defunct"]

The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the
heart
of

the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.

The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.

That's going to be a minor cost item. As you will find out, the
balloon structure, its support infrastructure, and lifting gas will
cost more than you think..

It all adds up. Might be good idea to get a sponsor.

Tsk. He gots the "recycling" spirit. Maybe he has a new way
to "mine" helium out of the air or ground? [collectors around some
heliarc welders might work? :-) ]

I was a forecaster for a "round-the-world" balloon venture. They lost
their helium due to a fabric tear. Couldn't find enough replacement
helium in Argentina.

Most helium still comes from Texas. :-)

In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the
mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.

Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of
coverage at

100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10
meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.

Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

And all of those gps, beacons, packets, thermistors, pressure
transducers, and video cameras and ATV transmitters operate off of
heavy batteries. Luckily the ascent and descent won't be that long,
and the batteries can be scaled back from what is normally required
with one caveat. You'll want the beacon to be operable for several
days, if possible.

Mere details. It is "doing science!" It is "inexpensive!"

One-shot batteries are one source, but they ARE truly one-shot
and can't be recycled afterwards.

I'm sure our multi-disciplinarian engineer who's "been there and back"
could do it.

Absolutell! :-)

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade
and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment

that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude,
and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird

as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of
the
payload.

Commercial grade GPS recievers are designed to not work above 60,000
feet. Crazy precaution against strapping one to a missile and using
it as a guidance system.

No sweaty-dah. Seal the GPS unit in more balloon material, it stays
in a local pressure regardless of the vehicle altitude. More or less.

The ascent and descent shouldn't be more than 4 - 5 hours.

Descent much faster. :-) That weather balloon will probably
go POP before 50 kilofeet.

[someone finally noticed that those balloon things filled at near
sea level DO get rather BIG at high altitude...like, no kidding?]

Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting

used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine

the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much
bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.

You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects
have
quite objective, finite budgets.

The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with
some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,

publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even

people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in
some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature
science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need
to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We

also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Check out the prices for helium with a gas supplier, plus what it
takes to haul to HEAVY gas cylinders to a launch area, plus the
metering system plus the filling system plus whatever else. All
that after you've investigated what the actual lifting capacity will
be in terms of ounces per cubic feet of balloon. [I said ounces,
not pounds...lighter than air does not mean negative weight]

You could get "efficiency" by going for hydrogen gas...which is
offset by very direct DANGER from many and varied sources.

Yikes! If they use the nichrome wire on the balloon plug trick...

Hydrogen is a very efficient lifting gas. It CAN be generated by
amateurs...chemistry amateurs. Getting into the balloon is going
to be tricky.

Friend of mine had a hydrogen generator for launching balloons on
Antarctica. I guess it was cheaper/less weight than hauling in
helium.

Surplus catalogs used to sell the little generators but haven't seen
them in years.

It's high school chemistry time. Electrolysis...separate oxy and
hydrogen from water via electrickery. Takes a while for any sort
of H volume but that can be automated. Water cheap, electricity
relatively cheap. [some hams extremely cheap...[


Still going for 100,000 foot altitude? Start thinking in terms of
the balloon exapanding to something on the order of EIGHT times
in size at altitude maximum. That's visible on some of the high
altitude research balloon flights of the 1960s using lots and lots
of plastic sheet for balloon material.

Your project may need a virgin...such as Richard Branson...to
help start it off.

Now, if you are REALLY thinking about this whole thing, look into
"Project STAR" and a little thing like a model airplane that crossed
the Atlantic (from Newfoundland to the Irish coast) during the 38
hours in August 9, 10, and 11, 2003. Laugh all you want but a few
guys from around DC managed to do that through GPS guidance
on board as an autopilot. You can read about it at

http://tam.plannet21.com/index.htm

Pictures and stuff to guide you even if you are not into model
flying.
38 hours (approx) of powered flight using only 5.5 pounds of fuel,
flight path of 1882 miles. Radio control only for take off and
climb-
out, then landing in Ireland...the rest entirely on "autopilot." It
had
some means of reporting its position to earth via satellites. That
alone would be of interest to anything else involving GPS location
or guidance.

Search around on the huge NASA website for atmospheric info,
especially for density versus height. You could do an approximate
curve of payload + balloon weight versus cost of helium in hundreds
of cubic feet to whatever altitude limit. That will give you some
realistic viewing into feasibility of it all.



Sounds like fun. Dense air operations in the eastern states may pose
a big problem.

Not to worry. Air carriers are on the "Victor" ways above the max.
balloon altitude. General Av types will be in the denser altitudes
and props will chop it up nicely. :-)

I wouldn't count on it. Maybe CAPman can fly by with a skyhook and
snatch the descending package before it becomes FOD for the General Av
types?

A large budget bump there...CAP is unlikely to pay for the
snatch aircraft fuel, maintenance costs, etc.

Anyway, this entire thing is highly doable as it's already been done
by amateur radio operators for at least a decade.

Well, YES, it has. Thing was that Mike was making out like it was
something "new" in going to "near space!" NOT with surplus latex
weather balloons he aint. A mylar or other polymer film gasbag,
yes, but the ground support for anything sizeable is going to be
MUCH larger than realized for that "near space" altitude.

Then there are all of the high-power amateur rocket types who
regularly get FAA approval, have telemetry, and a good set of binocs.
I participated once with another amateur and they were thrilled with
our ability to communicate from the launch area to the pick-up area.
Today, FRS and cell phones can probably fill that niche. Ooops!

Darn it! Brian! You said some naughty words! You will now be
lectured interminably by the S. :-)

Len Over 21 wrote:

Dreaming about something is fine. DOING it is quite another. Getting outraged at not being psychologically sugar-boosted happens
all the time in here, realized by most but never by the
proposer. :-)

Tsk.

This reads like the story of your entry into amateur radio, Leonard.
Dreaming about getting that ticket is one thing. DOING it is quite
another.

Mike will likely see "Leonard" at 100k feet before you obtain an amateur
radio license.

Happy psychological sugar-boosting and message knuckling to you.

Dave K8MN

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

If you break 100,000 MSL we'll ship Leonard off to Sean O'Keefe at
NASA so that O'Keefe can pin astronaut wings on Leonard.

HOWL! Now that's funny!

Yes, it was incredibly funny, yet there are those who think that there
is a lack of humor in r.r.a.p.

I like W3RV's idea. I thought it might be more appropriate to consider
naming the vehicle itself "Leonard" but I was advised that there is
already a gas bag with that name.

Remember, too, that the balloons Mike is considering obtain their lift from
helium (a noble gas) rather than hot air.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Leo wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback.

Who are they, Leo?

Who on this newsgroup has even attempted to launch a radio-carrying ballon to
100,000 feet? Or even to half that?

They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

Perhaps we've been reading different posts...

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.

Leo,

There is a world of difference between someone like Jim, who questions
and looks at my answers, and one member that says what I am considering
is impossible, and yet another that calls me incompetent.

At least two out the three are willing to look at the websites.

And there is a lot of difference between me illustrating my points wit
web references, and finally getting annoyed after I am called incompetent.

Considering that to Len, this is an impossible task, and that Brian
Kelly has thinks I'm an idiot that is only suited for cheerleading, I
would have to say that they probably don't have anything to offer me in
my doomed project with which I am going to hurt someone.

My call.

The websites offer a lot of evidence that it can be done, has been done and
even how to do it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

William wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

I still might.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike, be nice.

I think you have a good project, and cannot understand why all these
"movers and shakers" of RRAP keep poo-pooing the idea. Maybe they are
paper tigers, code-tape Extra's, or just plain old windbags
themselves. Anyway, you have several of them in your backyard and I
haven't seen a single one throw in with you yet (but then I haven't
read all of the blabbering). Speaks volumes.

:((

My best advice is to associate the project with a Scouting
Troop/Venture Crew, or H.S. honors science class, etc, find a handful
of sponsors (easier when you have the scouting affiliation), and find
some motivated no-code Techs who aren't afraid of a challenge, or
maybe don't know enough to get out of the way.

A good idea, Brian. I've made a few presentations on other subjects
with the scouts, and it has been a lot of fun.



FWIW, the military has standing orders to assist the Scouts wherever
they can.

That I did not know.


They might be helpful in many ways, from lodging to launch
location to weather support. You could make a request to the Air
Force Weather Agency to have a Support Assistance Request (SAR) in
place to run the trajectory model and predict the final resting place
of your package (you supply launch time and ascent/descent rates),
preposition your recovery team in that vicinity, then adjust as
real-world conditions dictate.



This is a gold mine of a post, Brian. Thanks much!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it!
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 11/18/2004 7:42 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

William wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

I still might.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Mike, be nice.

I think you have a good project, and cannot understand why all these
"movers and shakers" of RRAP keep poo-pooing the idea. Maybe they are
paper tigers, code-tape Extra's, or just plain old windbags
themselves. Anyway, you have several of them in your backyard and I
haven't seen a single one throw in with you yet (but then I haven't
read all of the blabbering). Speaks volumes.

What speaks volumes is that you, Brain, in one breath make an accusatory
statement, then immediately excuse yourself with ..."(but then I haven't read
all of the blabbering)".

My best advice is to associate the project with a Scouting
Troop/Venture Crew, or H.S. honors science class, etc, find a handful
of sponsors (easier when you have the scouting affiliation), and find
some motivated no-code Techs who aren't afraid of a challenge, or
maybe don't know enough to get out of the way.

A good idea, Brian. I've made a few presentations on other subjects
with the scouts, and it has been a lot of fun.

Started off strong, reasonable suggestions, followed up with sleights and
insults.

FWIW, the military has standing orders to assist the Scouts wherever
they can.

That I did not know.

As they do for Civil Air Patrol, JROTC, ROTC, and a handful of other civic
minded programs.

They might be helpful in many ways, from lodging to launch
location to weather support. You could make a request to the Air
Force Weather Agency to have a Support Assistance Request (SAR) in
place to run the trajectory model and predict the final resting place
of your package (you supply launch time and ascent/descent rates),
preposition your recovery team in that vicinity, then adjust as
real-world conditions dictate.

This is a gold mine of a post, Brian. Thanks much!

It would have been had he been able to start it off without being
insulting and demonstrating his arrogance. He cudda been a contender. He had
to be condescending, instead.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes:


Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...


1500ºC is 2732ºF, over
a thousand degrees hotter than the melting point of steel!


"That's hot!"


. . WTF . . ?!

The atmosphere does indeed heat up in the area known as the Thermosphere


Does other odd things too. Bouncy, bouncy!

Space, or near space is a very strange place...

If you don't believe me, here is some info from NASA. They give even
higher values as a maximum.


"That's hot!"


http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy...tmosphere.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere

gives a nice explanation of the Thermosphere, and there is a bit of info
there as to why Amateurs should be interested in it.


A good question is "Why doesn't everything that passes through the
thermosphere burn up?" Because they don't. In fact, despite these high
temps, things passing through this region would "feel" cold.


Would you rather stick your hand into water heated to 200 degrees F or air
heated to 400 degrees?

Why should Hams know about the Thermosphere?


'Cause it's hot? ;-)

If it wasn't hot, we wouldn't have the ionization that allows us to
communicate all over the world on HF.



You *don't* understand some *very* basic
things about the atmosphere, things that you should know as a Ham.


This whole thread got me thinking about how balloons work and how much helium
costs and such. One thing I found out is that 1000 cu ft of helium can be had
for about $200. A bit of $$ for an individual launch but not much if split up
amongst a group.

And of course you don't need that much per typical launch.

I'd seriously consider using hydrogen instead of helium. Hydrogen
would be a terrible choice for use in party balloons but in a
controlled situation like this outdoors and handled properly hydrogen
can be used quite safely. Hydrogen is used in large volumes throuhgout
the industrial sector and it's being used in experimental hybrid
vehicles. If the pros in the auto biz don't have a show-stopping
problem with hydrogen being used as fuel for the interstate kamikazis
neither do I. Propane is nasty stuff too but propane-powered vehicles
have been out there for 40-50 years.

I believe it's much cheaper than helium.

With hydrogen you wouldn't have to inflate the balloon as much to get
it airborne which in turn means that the balloon would be able to fly
higher before it pops. "Higher stretch ratio", etc.

Another thing was the lifting power at high altitudes and low pressures, and
the concept and behavior of a balloon open at the bottom that's not filled all
the way with gas. Fascinating.

Those balloons get BIG before bursting. I've seen some video of it. I
haven't seen what happens to the form of the zero-pressure balloons,
though. Certainly the zero-pressure balloons are a fascinating example
of a self regulating system.

- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv