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N2EY wrote:
In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: is the ES 101 stuff. Actually doing it is very different. For example - just what *are* all the facets of a given problem?. I have no idea what "ES 101" is or was. One of those intro engineering courses. Lays out basic concepts and methods. DIT didn't bless us with any of those. I guess we were expected to pick it up on the fly during our industry periods. Which would be typical. Like one of their standing policies; "Topics in the syllabus not covered in class or by the homework will be covered in the final." Different generation... Seasoned technical types degreed and otherwise learn out in the college of hard knocks how to plan and execute projects in highly systematic manners because when money is involved the project better be pulled off properly or yer outta work. Which is not the same factor here. In business if ya signed the contract to deliver X on date Y, you better do it or bad things will happen. In this balloon thing, a delay of weeks or months is no big deal if the result is success rather than failure. I meant from the standpoint of organizing a project. Being nit-picky about it "delivery dates" can matter in some hobby projects like when one is faced with finishing up the job jar to get set for a specific contest. I agree, in most cases nothing bad comes of slipped dates in non-commercial efforts like it does out in the commercial world. Point is it's still a different world. It is an exceptionally different world. More on that in a minute That's the incentive. Beyond that we is what we is and we don't change our stripes when we get involved in the planning of off-hours volunteer efforts or our hobbies. Maybe *you* don't. Not when it comes to identifying and organizing the sequence of project milestones, laying out a budget, identifying the unknowns to the extent possible and listing the assets required and such I don't. It all goes down on paper or in an MS Project file from square one just like I do on the job. Which is the way I'd run Mike's balloon project. And which I sense is not the way Mike is approaching it. You don't know Mike... The world of gathering a number of people that go out to do something for the sheer love of it is not anything even close to the world of having a number of people working at a place that get assigned to a particular job because if they wanna get paid, they do what the boss tells 'em. In addition they may be starting on a job that a proposal has existed for some time. To have a meeting and plot out all the milestones is great, and to have a firm grip on costs is wonderful. I've pointed out that we are in the organizing stage right now. Does it make good sense to define the exact projects and the launch dates and make specific cost estimates when you are looking for the people to do the job? This is NOT that world. As I pick up the core group of people, I will then be finding out where the project is going to go. I've picked up a programmer, some elementary students and their teacher, A NOAA guy, a few others of general Ham experience, and most recently, one of my collaborators from the Star party I put together a few years ago. As soon as he came on board, the whole early complexion of the project changed. The guy is a technical whiz in several areas, and when he commits, things happen. He has some specific projects in mind for this endeavor, and we're going to run with several of them. Had I been doing this Microsoft Project project and had firm dates and costs as of yesterday morning, I would have wasted alomst 100 percent of the time spent on it by yesterday afternoon. Only parts that would not have been wasted time would have been the raw material costs. Big deal, a couple hours and a couple phone calls. The way that I have to run this sort of project is to first make the pitch to people, then find out how many people are interested enough to volunteer their time. At that point we separate into committees. I'm pretty much at that point now, although I'm looking for a few more volunteers to make committee placement easier. First we get some general ideas of costs, time committments, possible launch dates, etc. After that, we go off and do our initial research. Then we come back and flesh out the plans. At the second meeting we start to map out the plan of attack. We find out about anything that was unanticipated during the organization meeting. Schedules are made, and construction begins soon afterwards. I've done it that way before, and it has worked very well. There are many people that are not suited at all for this sort of thing. If you are the sort of person that needs a perfectly clear path, this is not the project for you. If you need everythnig spelled out for you, this is not the project for you. When you are in a multidisciplinary atmosphere where you have to have technical and non-technical people mixing, and you are convinced that the only people on the project that are worth anything are the technical people, this is most *certainly* not the project for you. As an example: (of those that replied in the thread) Lenover21 is definitely not suitable for this sort of project, unless he has a distinctly different off-keyboard persona. I think Brian Burke would do okay on the project. Brian Kelly would not. He prefers more structure than this type of project can provide, and I would have problems with him in that I think he has some issues with those he considers non-technical types. Not a good mix there. Leo? Hard to say... Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a very good thing. I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) Wherein come the clashes with the non-technical types we get involved with on joint efforts. Pick any mid-to-large scale Field Day planning session around here for a perfect example. You might wanna look up how the CP folks did... Ya ducked the bullet. I scanned the scores but I couldn't find 'em in 2/3/4/5A. I missed it? They didn't submit an entry? Howcum there's two lists for 1B-2? They ran something like 8A with a call you probably don't recognize. Most of the categories are split into three lists: Battery, Emergency Power, and Commercial Power. He let his cat out of the bag at some point in past but it got past you. He's a VE but I had him in the wrong province. Didn't get past me. Leo sez he's a VE3. But no call, no last name, no positive ID, no website, no outside confirmation. Maybe he is, maybe he ain't. I'm convinced he is a VE3 named Leo. Your mileage is obviously varying for some mysterious reason. I'm simply pointing out there's no proof one way or the other. No way, changing writing styles like changing fingerprints, can't be done. Nonsense. Ghostwriters do it all the time. Len's done the pseudonym thing here more than once - that we know of. Sweetums is a patterned, unlettered compulsively combative fomer military aerospace bench tech, professional ghostwriters are usually talented journalists, historians, etc. . Now that's a valid point! 73 de Jim, N2EY - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Mike Coslo
writes: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: Seasoned technical types degreed and otherwise learn out in the college of hard knocks how to plan and execute projects in highly systematic manners because when money is involved the project better be pulled off properly or yer outta work. Which is not the same factor here. In business if ya signed the contract to deliver X on date Y, you better do it or bad things will happen. In this balloon thing, a delay of weeks or months is no big deal if the result is success rather than failure. I meant from the standpoint of organizing a project. Being nit-picky about it "delivery dates" can matter in some hobby projects like when one is faced with finishing up the job jar to get set for a specific contest. I agree, in most cases nothing bad comes of slipped dates in non-commercial efforts like it does out in the commercial world. Point is it's still a different world. It is an exceptionally different world. More on that in a minute My helium hose comment still applies. That's the incentive. Beyond that we is what we is and we don't change our stripes when we get involved in the planning of off-hours volunteer efforts or our hobbies. Maybe *you* don't. Not when it comes to identifying and organizing the sequence of project milestones, laying out a budget, identifying the unknowns to the extent possible and listing the assets required and such I don't. It all goes down on paper or in an MS Project file from square one just like I do on the job. Which is the way I'd run Mike's balloon project. And which I sense is not the way Mike is approaching it. You don't know Mike... The world of gathering a number of people that go out to do something for the sheer love of it is not anything even close to the world of having a number of people working at a place that get assigned to a particular job because if they wanna get paid, they do what the boss tells 'em. In addition they may be starting on a job that a proposal has existed for some time. To have a meeting and plot out all the milestones is great, and to have a firm grip on costs is wonderful. I've pointed out that we are in the organizing stage right now. Does it make good sense to define the exact projects and the launch dates and make specific cost estimates when you are looking for the people to do the job? This is NOT that world. As I pick up the core group of people, I will then be finding out where the project is going to go. I've picked up a programmer, some elementary students and their teacher, A NOAA guy, a few others of general Ham experience, and most recently, one of my collaborators from the Star party I put together a few years ago. As soon as he came on board, the whole early complexion of the project changed. The guy is a technical whiz in several areas, and when he commits, things happen. He has some specific projects in mind for this endeavor, and we're going to run with several of them. And you've been at this how many days? Had I been doing this Microsoft Project project and had firm dates and costs as of yesterday morning, I would have wasted alomst 100 percent of the time spent on it by yesterday afternoon. Only parts that would not have been wasted time would have been the raw material costs. Big deal, a couple hours and a couple phone calls. Indeed. There's even the issue of not knowing what you don't kknow you need to know. For example, when is the best time of year to launch? Midsummer looks good from a thermal standpoint but as you noted the humidity may override that. Early spring, while the trees are still bare, may be better - or maybe not. The way that I have to run this sort of project is to first make the pitch to people, then find out how many people are interested enough to volunteer their time. At that point we separate into committees. I'm pretty much at that point now, although I'm looking for a few more volunteers to make committee placement easier. First we get some general ideas of costs, time committments, possible launch dates, etc. There's also a quiet analysis of who will actually deliver the goodies and who will not, for a pile of reasons. After that, we go off and do our initial research. Then we come back and flesh out the plans. At the second meeting we start to map out the plan of attack. We find out about anything that was unanticipated during the organization meeting. Schedules are made, and construction begins soon afterwards. I've done it that way before, and it has worked very well. There are many people that are not suited at all for this sort of thing. If you are the sort of person that needs a perfectly clear path, this is not the project for you. If you need everythnig spelled out for you, this is not the project for you. When you are in a multidisciplinary atmosphere where you have to have technical and non-technical people mixing, and you are convinced that the only people on the project that are worth anything are the technical people, this is most *certainly* not the project for you. As an example: (of those that replied in the thread) Lenover21 is definitely not suitable for this sort of project, unless he has a distinctly different off-keyboard persona. I think Brian Burke would do okay on the project. Brian Kelly would not. He prefers more structure than this type of project can provide, and I would have problems with him in that I think he has some issues with those he considers non-technical types. Not a good mix there. Leo? Hard to say... Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a very good thing. tnx! Too bad I'm so far away. I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) If so, he's just like Len.... 73 de Jim, N2EY |
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:45:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: snip I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it! I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to this goal. In fact, you seem to be following the example of your mentor here a bit, joining him in the return fire. Are you trying to keep the arguement alive, or are you really interested in ballooning? And, what would you like from us? - encouragement, ideas, assistance - or just phony and gratuitous praise and accolades? You posted this here for a reason - please advise. Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......? :) - Mike KB3EIA - 73, Leo |
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N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: Seasoned technical types degreed and otherwise learn out in the college of hard knocks how to plan and execute projects in highly systematic manners because when money is involved the project better be pulled off properly or yer outta work. Which is not the same factor here. In business if ya signed the contract to deliver X on date Y, you better do it or bad things will happen. In this balloon thing, a delay of weeks or months is no big deal if the result is success rather than failure. I meant from the standpoint of organizing a project. Being nit-picky about it "delivery dates" can matter in some hobby projects like when one is faced with finishing up the job jar to get set for a specific contest. I agree, in most cases nothing bad comes of slipped dates in non-commercial efforts like it does out in the commercial world. Point is it's still a different world. It is an exceptionally different world. More on that in a minute My helium hose comment still applies. That's the incentive. Beyond that we is what we is and we don't change our stripes when we get involved in the planning of off-hours volunteer efforts or our hobbies. Maybe *you* don't. Not when it comes to identifying and organizing the sequence of project milestones, laying out a budget, identifying the unknowns to the extent possible and listing the assets required and such I don't. It all goes down on paper or in an MS Project file from square one just like I do on the job. Which is the way I'd run Mike's balloon project. And which I sense is not the way Mike is approaching it. You don't know Mike... The world of gathering a number of people that go out to do something for the sheer love of it is not anything even close to the world of having a number of people working at a place that get assigned to a particular job because if they wanna get paid, they do what the boss tells 'em. In addition they may be starting on a job that a proposal has existed for some time. To have a meeting and plot out all the milestones is great, and to have a firm grip on costs is wonderful. I've pointed out that we are in the organizing stage right now. Does it make good sense to define the exact projects and the launch dates and make specific cost estimates when you are looking for the people to do the job? This is NOT that world. As I pick up the core group of people, I will then be finding out where the project is going to go. I've picked up a programmer, some elementary students and their teacher, A NOAA guy, a few others of general Ham experience, and most recently, one of my collaborators from the Star party I put together a few years ago. As soon as he came on board, the whole early complexion of the project changed. The guy is a technical whiz in several areas, and when he commits, things happen. He has some specific projects in mind for this endeavor, and we're going to run with several of them. And you've been at this how many days? My first pitch was November 9th, so it has been only a couple weeks. At this time, I have an operable core. I want more people though, to lessen the load on individuals. Had I been doing this Microsoft Project project and had firm dates and costs as of yesterday morning, I would have wasted alomst 100 percent of the time spent on it by yesterday afternoon. Only parts that would not have been wasted time would have been the raw material costs. Big deal, a couple hours and a couple phone calls. Indeed. There's even the issue of not knowing what you don't kknow you need to know. And that is a big issue. For example, when is the best time of year to launch? Midsummer looks good from a thermal standpoint but as you noted the humidity may override that. Early spring, while the trees are still bare, may be better - or maybe not. All the seasons present some problems. I was surprised at a number of mid-winter launches. I've been thinking about a rapid response sort of launch during solar storms, auroral activities, etc. The way that I have to run this sort of project is to first make the pitch to people, then find out how many people are interested enough to volunteer their time. At that point we separate into committees. I'm pretty much at that point now, although I'm looking for a few more volunteers to make committee placement easier. First we get some general ideas of costs, time committments, possible launch dates, etc. There's also a quiet analysis of who will actually deliver the goodies and who will not, for a pile of reasons. The bane of my existence at times! Some are great at yakking, and not so great at doing..... After that, we go off and do our initial research. Then we come back and flesh out the plans. At the second meeting we start to map out the plan of attack. We find out about anything that was unanticipated during the organization meeting. Schedules are made, and construction begins soon afterwards. I've done it that way before, and it has worked very well. For people that have the required flexibility, it is the fastest way to work. There are many people that are not suited at all for this sort of thing. If you are the sort of person that needs a perfectly clear path, this is not the project for you. If you need everythnig spelled out for you, this is not the project for you. When you are in a multidisciplinary atmosphere where you have to have technical and non-technical people mixing, and you are convinced that the only people on the project that are worth anything are the technical people, this is most *certainly* not the project for you. As an example: (of those that replied in the thread) Lenover21 is definitely not suitable for this sort of project, unless he has a distinctly different off-keyboard persona. I think Brian Burke would do okay on the project. Brian Kelly would not. He prefers more structure than this type of project can provide, and I would have problems with him in that I think he has some issues with those he considers non-technical types. Not a good mix there. Leo? Hard to say... Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a very good thing. tnx! Too bad I'm so far away. I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) If so, he's just like Len.... I don''t think he is, but the MAS comments caught me a bit off guard. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Leo wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:45:23 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: snip I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it! 1. Then we could get back to discussing Morse code testing, and eliminate the distractions keeping us from paying attention to Steve and Brian's war of words. 2. If people would allow the project to be discussed in terms of policy, it would be germane to the list. Instead, there is a lot of simply incorrect "facts" regarding myself being incapable of doing this thing, and that such a thing is even possible. While others eventually adjust their positions to grudgingly admit that such things are possible, that doesn't change their earlier posts. 3. I hope you don't mind, but if Jim and I continue to discuss the post, we will do just that. If you do mind, then you are free to not participate. If you want to participate, then please do. I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to this goal. Len is a big boy, and seems to return the favors. In fact, you seem to be following the example of your mentor here a bit, joining him in the return fire. Hehe, and Len's always been so *nice* to me! Here's how I look at it. In my group of social and work friends, we take little digs at each other from time to time. Little jokes that are harmless and usually funny. My friends take shots at my occasional legendary messiness in my office, and I take shots at one guys neatness neatness, and another's occasional grumpiness. Big deal. We're friends, and enjoy each other's company. My making a leg pulling reference about naming the first payload package "LEN" is about as innocent and cute a dig as a person could make. If that is "return fire", and a bad thing, than why do you chide me when I take exception to someone calling me incompetent? It goes both ways. Are you trying to keep the arguement alive, or are you really interested in ballooning? And, what would you like from us? - encouragement, ideas, assistance - or just phony and gratuitous praise and accolades? You posted this here for a reason - please advise. I already explained why I started posting on this subject, from the first post, and at least once during the ensuing thread. I'll do it again: Hans started the thread by noting that Hams are being marginalized by their own activities, or lack of them, substituting political action for innovation. Then in his post that elicited my response: Hans wrote in part: Then a couple of weeks later FCC Special Counsel for Amateur Radio Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth, K4ZDH, made some chillingly similar comments in a public speech. "Take nothing for granted. Bill Gates can't, and you can't either." "You're at a crossroads now. An old Chinese philosopher (or my grandmother--I can never remember which!) said, "Be careful what you wish for. You may get it." Seize the moment, and make this your finest hour. Ham radio has been at a crossroads before and has thrived. Continue that tradition." "Make sure that, on your watch, Amateur Radio never becomes obsolete." From those two FCC speeches, it ought to be clear to all of us that Amateur Radio does *not* have a "free pass" to spectrum, not will our current allocations be "protected" when other applications come looking for a place to operate. The handwriting is on the wall --- the FCC isn't much interested in what we used to do, but is intensely watching our current stewardship of the resources that are so highly coveted by other services. Regretably I think we've been found, in Riley's words, "obsolete", and financing a rearguard legal and political maneuvering by Haynie and Imlay is pretty much ****ing money down a rathole. end Hans quote After another post by Jim, I noted that: Quote by me: Funny you should ask! I have started to put together a "Near Space Science" group. I made initial calls for interest a few months ago, and made my pitch at our club meeting this week. The response was excellent, both at the meeting and afterward in private. At the moment it looks like we are going to make this happen. The likely scenario is that we will be working with local schools and other interested parties as well as among fellow Hams to launch experiments - both ARS and Educational - to the shores of space at around 100,000 feet above the earth, and then return them safely. This is a ripe field for experimentation and innovation. There are groups that are already doing this, and I see many innovations to be made, and improvements in technique that may be possible. The efforts are a public relations windfall if they are done correctly. It is a great way to get our name out in the community, both locally and nationally. This can all be accomplished for a surprisingly low cost. It is also a cross-interest project where people of many different interests and disciplines can contribute. It isn't just Hams. Outside of a gvt/university environment, Ham radio is the most practical way to go. We have licenses, methods, and applicable frequencies to use. Don't know if any of you folks in the PA and local area are interested in getting involved, but if so, we can discuss it here or by private email. So there you are Jim. A way to innovate, experiment, and have fun at the same time. Also a great P.R. effort that gets our message out to the public in a way that they can understand as a "hi-tech" endeavor. End my quote.... This project is in my opinion is intimately connected to amateur radio policy. It is a highly visible project that would be likely to have public support and generate positive p.r. for Amateur radio. I was hoping that we might discuss this project as it applies to Amateur Radio policy. Instead we got into how it was not possible for me to even do such a project. Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......? :) All threads here eventually become Steve versus Brian! 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - 73, Leo |
Update on Near Space Science project.
Today, I got my Packet person! Two latex balloons have also been donated to the cause. We now have a fair portion of the core personnel put together. A launch experienced person. A payload generalist. Integration and visualization. Packet communications. Programming. First meeting will probably be this weekend to set priority, protocol, and financial, and to set a target date for first launch. Payload form factor and size to be set. likely scenario - to be settled at meeting. A tethered shakedown flight will be scheduled for late winter 2005. First free flight is anticipated in early spring 2005. First flights will be simple. GPS and digital imaging, along with Packet of course. Terminal altitude of first free flight will need to be assessed. That will have an impact on payload design. It may be easier to simply let the thing rise until burst instead of going for a lower altitude, which may necessitate design of a burst mechanism. Further approaches to Educational facilities will likely take place after the first free flight, so that there is a proof of performance re launching/retrieving these things. - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article , Leo
writes: On 23 Nov 2004 08:26:11 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: snip I'm convinced he is a VE3 named Leo. Your mileage is obviously varying for some mysterious reason. I ham, therefore I am :) Excellent. High philosophic potential...almost as if Voltaire wrote it. Except Voltaire didn't...Leo's phrase is current. It's all so complex and there is an impedance to humor shown by others. They resist humor and show negative reactance to it, oddly demonstrating a lack of capacity to appreciate humor...and all its inductive reasoning...standing in the waves but enjoying not. RMS: These serious folks are Rutting around Meanly, the Source for their displeasure. Their frequency varies, no stability. Watts new, Leo? :-) ["when puns are outlawed, only outlaws will have puns..."] |
In article , Leo
writes: On 21 Nov 2004 13:13:12 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: Leo wrote in message ... On 20 Nov 2004 01:57:21 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: snip I ran into a great blonde in the Toronto airport terminal who was a Mountie. Told her didn't look much like Sergeant Preston to me and asked her where her horse was. She asked me when I was going back where I came from. Heh - I can picture that! Bet she never heard that one before..... :0 Seriously, though, in downtown Toronto in the 70s, I frequently had tourists stop me and ask where they could see an igloo (2,500 miles north would be a great place to start!) and where all of the trees were (!). Doesn't seem to happen much anymore - maybe the Internet fixed that!. Blame the motion picture business. All the trees and igloos got moved to Vancouver where a "new Hollywood" is growing. :-) Or, all the trees were stolen by the western Washington state folks and planted all over Puget Sound area. Folks in eastern Washington state were too honest and that's why that part of the state seems like open prarie... :-) Or, blame the "space aliens" who got out of Area 51 and went up to Vancouver to work in the Stargate and Atlantis productions. :-) Hmmm...maybe if Kelly had purchased some Viagra from Canada he could have made out better with Amanda Tapping? :-) "The world wonders..." |
In article , Leo
writes: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:45:23 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: snip I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it! Heh heh heh. Leo, my thoughts exactly on this "project." There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-) Nonsense. Anyone needing all that demonstrated request for emotional sustenance prior to beginning indicates - usually - that they really aren't in this for the long (and expensive) haul. I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to this goal. In fact, you seem to be following the example of your mentor here a bit, joining him in the return fire. Are you trying to keep the arguement alive, or are you really interested in ballooning? As I've written in here, free ballooning has been going on in North America for over two centuries. It isn't "rocket science" since lots and lots of folks have already done it...most without any need for amateur radio whatevers. The "arguments" against me MUST LIVE since the "long livers" are nearly all PCTAs and I'm against the morse code test for any radio license by any nations' administration. That tenuous thread, plus the rabid intensity of the PCTA to maintain the code test that They had to take is the life-force spark to damn any comments by me totally divorced from any ballooning discussion. :-) Some required managerial basics on free ballooning: Know the environment (the atmosphere) from long-published data on air pressure, density, and temperature to high altitudes, at least in general (finer data can be obtained when solidifying requirements); have some ball-park ideas of costs of balloons, their required sizes (derived from atmospheric data) versus expected payloads and support structures plus co$t; get some ball-park figures on lifting gas cost, suppliers, filling apparatus, and transport to the balloon launch area; check into all appropriate government agencies for permissions, possible insurance requirements for a group (especially if flammable lifting gas is used), interference concerns on radio, both incoming and outgoing, that might affect operations of balloon telemetry and "science" payload needs. The latter includes some reasonably-accurate way to skin-track the balloon flight by government organizations in some areas for reasons of safety-of-flight for other air craft...as well as a way to truly prove an altitude figure achieved (for both payload needs and later bragging rights). All those needs certainly seem apparent for a group effort in this very non-amateur environment of our thin atmosphere layer. That will be found to be true when the co$ts are looked into and found to be a bit more than gasoline cost of driving to-from a launch site. One could expect that a single launch, even a test flight could go beyond $100 (all-total) a flight minimum. There's NO guarantee that all balloons are recoverable and reuseable, despite all the little glued-on "return address" tags. And, what would you like from us? - encouragement, ideas, assistance - or just phony and gratuitous praise and accolades? You posted this here for a reason - please advise. My opinion is that "gratuitous praise and accolades" are THE thing desired. Especially all the kudos for "a job well done" even before the first steps are taken! :-) If "others" have done it, then all those who Want to do it MUST ALREADY be successful, even without doing so themselves! :-) Known: Others have already DONE this. Project "managers" NEED to go to them and get acquainted with what they will need, how-to-do- it advice taken in, find out what their costs are, and a myriad of data involved in such ballooning apart from the radio payload details. All that radio "science" is useless without the transport up into those higher altitudes to perform all that "science." Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......? :) It's all a CONSPIRACY of the NCTA infidels and fedayeen hijacking all the enthusiasm and all-one-needs-is-emotional-outlook to get it done!!! [damn the practical details, not needed in fantasyland] Anyone against a PCTA dreaming up something is "obviously" in "hatred of all amateur radio" or the equivalent and must be a kid, a lid, or a space cadet!!! :-) [aside: all astronauts not yet in space must be 'space cadets?'] Like Brian Kelly, "I'm outa this thread!" :-) |
In article , Leo
writes: On 24 Nov 2004 11:31:58 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a very good thing. tnx! Too bad I'm so far away. LOL! The old 'Oh, that's a very interesting project, and I'd love to help, but I can't....." routine. Hams drive all night to get to places like Dayton to fish through piles of junk that they don't need (been there, done that, impressed the wife to no end when I returned with a trunk full of stuff!). If you were as interested as you say, you'd find a way! More BS, I suspect.....not on your agenda. I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) If so, he's just like Len.... (sigh) - You sure live in a small world, Jim - all who agree with your Pollyanna-like views are OK, and everyone who sees through the BS and calls you on it must be 'Len'. I am (in their views) "in hatred of all amateur radio" because I don't agree with their views on morse code testing. :-) Anyone who disagrees with these gods of radio and morsemanship are all named "Len" (de facto if not de jure). Ergo, any and all postings not yielding immediate gratuitous praise and high-fives for a "concept" NOT yet done are "in error" and do not deserve to share the same atmosphere...because all are named "Len." :-) Sigh... Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'! Sky Pilot. :-) [haven't heard that term in a while] |
Leo wrote in message . ..
Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'! Sky Pilot. 73, Leo Sky Pilot, huh? Rev Jim just doesn't suit him anymore. |
On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:00 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:
In article , Leo writes: On 21 Nov 2004 13:13:12 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: Leo wrote in message ... On 20 Nov 2004 01:57:21 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: snip I ran into a great blonde in the Toronto airport terminal who was a Mountie. Told her didn't look much like Sergeant Preston to me and asked her where her horse was. She asked me when I was going back where I came from. Heh - I can picture that! Bet she never heard that one before..... :0 Seriously, though, in downtown Toronto in the 70s, I frequently had tourists stop me and ask where they could see an igloo (2,500 miles north would be a great place to start!) and where all of the trees were (!). Doesn't seem to happen much anymore - maybe the Internet fixed that!. Blame the motion picture business. All the trees and igloos got moved to Vancouver where a "new Hollywood" is growing. :-) Actually, the motion picture business in Toronto has been booming for quite a few years now as well - still no igloos, but there seems to be a shoot going on just about every day downtown (last week, I saw a fake NYPD police car in front of the Royal York Hotel, and about 12 trailers parked along the street....even saw a US flag flying on the flagpole of the old Toronto City Hall during one shoot - that was a double-take moment...) Or, all the trees were stolen by the western Washington state folks and planted all over Puget Sound area. Folks in eastern Washington state were too honest and that's why that part of the state seems like open prarie... :-) Or, blame the "space aliens" who got out of Area 51 and went up to Vancouver to work in the Stargate and Atlantis productions. :-) Hmmm...maybe if Kelly had purchased some Viagra from Canada he could have made out better with Amanda Tapping? :-) Hey - that girl could put Viagra out of business! :) "The world wonders..." 73, Leo |
On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:03 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:
In article , Leo writes: On 24 Nov 2004 11:31:58 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote: In article , Mike Coslo writes: N2EY wrote: In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: Now you would probably do well on this sort of thing. I noticed that you did some research, and came up with good suggestions. You've also demonstrated interest in multiple areas, which is a big plus. When a person understands what the other discipline id talking about, it is a very good thing. tnx! Too bad I'm so far away. LOL! The old 'Oh, that's a very interesting project, and I'd love to help, but I can't....." routine. Hams drive all night to get to places like Dayton to fish through piles of junk that they don't need (been there, done that, impressed the wife to no end when I returned with a trunk full of stuff!). If you were as interested as you say, you'd find a way! More BS, I suspect.....not on your agenda. I suppose Leo would call it more mutual admiration, but that's how I see it (does Leo hate it when people aren't arguing?) If so, he's just like Len.... (sigh) - You sure live in a small world, Jim - all who agree with your Pollyanna-like views are OK, and everyone who sees through the BS and calls you on it must be 'Len'. I am (in their views) "in hatred of all amateur radio" because I don't agree with their views on morse code testing. :-) Anyone who disagrees with these gods of radio and morsemanship are all named "Len" (de facto if not de jure). Ergo, any and all postings not yielding immediate gratuitous praise and high-fives for a "concept" NOT yet done are "in error" and do not deserve to share the same atmosphere...because all are named "Len." :-) Sigh... Back to your armchair, Jim - I think Mike needs more of your 'help'! Sky Pilot. :-) [haven't heard that term in a while] It's way back in my past too - fits quite well here on at least two levels! 73, Leo |
On 24 Nov 2004 20:33:59 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:
In article , Leo writes: On 23 Nov 2004 08:26:11 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote: (N2EY) wrote in message ... In article , (Brian Kelly) writes: snip I'm convinced he is a VE3 named Leo. Your mileage is obviously varying for some mysterious reason. I ham, therefore I am :) Excellent. High philosophic potential...almost as if Voltaire wrote it. Except Voltaire didn't...Leo's phrase is current. It's all so complex and there is an impedance to humor shown by others. They resist humor and show negative reactance to it, oddly demonstrating a lack of capacity to appreciate humor...and all its inductive reasoning...standing in the waves but enjoying not. RMS: These serious folks are Rutting around Meanly, the Source for their displeasure. Their frequency varies, no stability. Watts new, Leo? :-) Ooh - that Hertz! Please....no Mho! ["when puns are outlawed, only outlaws will have puns..."] 73, Leo |
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:18:20 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote: 3. I hope you don't mind, but if Jim and I continue to discuss the post, we will do just that. If you do mind, then you are free to not participate. If you want to participate, then please do. I certainly don't mind at all, Mike - thanks for asking. By all means, if you feel that you have a continuing need for the deep technical insight and engineering assistance that Jim has been providing to you so far, then do indeed proceed with my best wishes. However, if you would like to have some control over whether others participate, not participate, or object to things said in this public forum, I'd respectfully suggest that you move the discussion off line. If it's just going to be the two of you, the telephone might be the best tool for the job.... Otherwise, correspondum emptor.....let the poster beware! :) I certainly don't prefer arguing - civil discourse would be nice indeed - but....you may well note that your always-supportive pal Jim has been using the last few rounds of these exchanges to promote his own agenda (ie demonstrate how incorrect his nemesis Len is) - your project, or most any topic on this group, always takes a back seat to this goal. Len is a big boy, and seems to return the favors. Which has nothing at all to do with my statement above. Your statement does seem to condone the behaviour. Interesting. As they say, if you ain't part of the solution.... :) Perhaps you're thread is being hijacked......? :) All threads here eventually become Steve versus Brian! 8^) Not all threads, Mike....quite a few become Jim versus Len. Or Jim versus whomever he believes might be Len, a pseudo-Len, or Len-like in some way that he doesn't like! :) Then again, Jim may be in a position to make one valuable contribution to the project - you might be able to talk him out of the leftover cabinet from his gutted BC-221, and use it as a field box to carry the balloon and payload to site! 8*p - Mike KB3EIA - 73, Leo |
On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:
snip Actually, Leo would prefer that you and Jim end the mutual admiration and compliment exchange phase of the project, and go do it! Heh heh heh. Leo, my thoughts exactly on this "project." There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-) snip And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted prominently in his cubicle 8*p ). ++++++ The Six Phases Of A Project 1. Enthusiasm 2. Disillusionment 3. Panic 4. Search For The Guilty 5. Punishment Of The Innocent 6. Praise And Accolades For The Non-Participants ++++++ Judging by this benchmark, this project is clearly in Phase One! :*0 73, Leo |
Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it!
From: Leo Date: 11/25/2004 5:19 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote: There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-) snip And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted prominently in his cubicle 8*p ). Actaully, Leo, I think you hit upon the very summation of Lennie the Loser's Amateur Radio career: The Six Phases Of A Project Subtitled: "Lennie's Career in 'Professional' and Amateur Radio" 1. Enthusiasm Lennie dove into his "army career" as a radio mechanic. It was simple...The Army taught him how to read the maintenance manual and he followed the instructions. Considering the era in which he got involved, there was still a "whole wide world" out there for him to investigate. No doubt a senior NCO buttered Lennie in preparation for getting his "X" on re-enlistment papers, so I am sure he (Lennie) was sure of his invincibility as a radio mechanic. 2. Disillusionment Faced with the "real world" obligations (education, training, OJT, etc), it must have appeared daunting to Lennie to even get past the Maytag repairman. While Lennie was no doubt "smart enough" to do it, Lennie's been a short-cut kinda person all his life. Unfortunately all those short cuts, laid end to end, made the trip a lot longer than he envisoned. 3. Panic Realizing that he'd never be able to stack-up next to REAL engineers, Lennie latched himself onto the coattails of men and woman who DID have "The Right Stuff" in engineering, and hoped-to-high-heavens thet no one caught on to his game. Looking for yet another shortcut to vindication Lennie saddles up to an Amateur Radio publisher in hopes of getting his name in print. 4. Search For The Guilty There's always been "someone" who was responsible for Lennie's inability to gain the respectability and recognition for his wonderfulness. "WAIT! Those !@#$% ham radio operators! THEY did it! They kept me from the fame and fortune I so richly deserve!" This due, no doubt, to the UNDERwhelming arrival of fan mail from his several published bylines in the aforementioned Amateur Radio journal...a journal that went belly-up while Lennie was an "Associate Editor". 5. Punishment Of The Innocent Lennie's on-going berating in RRAP says it all. "We" did it to him, and now, By God, he's gonna make sure we "pay for it". Everyone except Lennie is responsible for Lennie's failures in Amateur Radio. The "Mighty Morsemen", "The ARRL", "the Elitists", the "jackbooted thugs", etc etc etc. Forget that Lennie might actually be well received at the local Amateur Radio club with his "professional background"...taking the same tests that "mere mortal" citizens take might further wound his already overinflated ego. 6. Praise And Accolades For The Non-Participants If there ever was a "non-participant" in Amateur Radio, it's The Loser of Lanark. Of course, however, it's "professional engineers' such as himself that knows "all about" the "real radio world", and no one save he and his colleagues knows anything about radio other than Part 97. Uh huh. 73 Steve, K4YZ |
On 26 Nov 2004 00:41:01 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote:
Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it! From: Leo Date: 11/25/2004 5:19 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: On 24 Nov 2004 20:34:02 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote: There's a LOT of "need" of hearty congratulations on a job well done BEFORE a project is even STARTED! :-) snip And of course, let's not overlook the seminal "Six Phases Of A Project" (which one of the guys in Network Engineering has posted prominently in his cubicle 8*p ). Actaully, Leo, I think you hit upon the very summation of Lennie the Loser's Amateur Radio career: The Six Phases Of A Project Subtitled: "Lennie's Career in 'Professional' and Amateur Radio" snip Now then, does anyone have any further questions on the subject of post hijacking? 8*p 73 Steve, K4YZ 73, Leo |
Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it!
From: Leo Date: 11/25/2004 10:14 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: Now then, does anyone have any further questions on the subject of post hijacking? What hijacking, you anonymous twit? You were acreditied with your original material. Steve |
In article , Leo
writes: Subtitled: "Lennie's Career in 'Professional' and Amateur Radio" snip Now then, does anyone have any further questions on the subject of post hijacking? 8*p One can always tell when an official holiday is over in here by the usual return to him playing tunes on his acrimonium... :-) [an "acrimonium" is a wind instrument of large, insubstantial proportions, always blowing off-key...] Big S. has only left out charges of being an axe-murderer or serial rapist. If I luck out he will holler those things the day after December 25. Stay tuned. :-) |
On 26 Nov 2004 13:05:11 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4YZ) wrote:
Subject: Near Space Science - was They just don't get it! From: Leo Date: 11/25/2004 10:14 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: Now then, does anyone have any further questions on the subject of post hijacking? What hijacking, you anonymous twit? You were acreditied with your original material. Well, hijack in the sense of taking control of something (in this case, this post) and steering it to somewhere other than the originator intended...... Appreciate the kind thoughts, though - and a Happy Thanksgiving to you too! Steve 73, Leo |
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