"KØHB" wrote in message link.net...
"N2EY" wrote


What, exactly, should we hams be doing to renew that reputation?


If I knew "what exactly" it would already have been done.

And I'm not talking about individual hams here, but how the ARRL focuses
its (our) resources.

If ARRL redirected half of the millions (yes, millions) it spends in
Washington towards fostering a renewal of the technical reputation which
we have lost, we'd have both credibility at the regulatory level, and
respect in industry.

ARRL (as the "national organization of amateur radio" which they bill
themselves) is the only one with the resources to bring "tinkering and
inventing" back into the forefront.

Encouraging innovation isn't tough --- in my engineering group I ask
each engineer to spend 10% of their time (4 hours per week) as "PBI"
time ("Partially Baked Idea"). This is time to pursue personally
selected pet projects unrelated to their primary tasking, even unrelated
to our groups tasking. Once a quarter we hold a one day "off site in
blue jeans" meeting where individuals can grab the spotlight and "show
and tell" their PBI to the rest of the group. The effect on creativity
is marvelous, and also a great tool for identifying "up and comers"
whose creativity might be otherwise masked by the day-to-day drudge of
assigned tasking.

And they get paid for every minute they spend on their brainfarts.

Can you imagine what might happen if ARRL spent perhaps $500,000/annum
on "PBI" conferences, and made some "folk heroes" out of some tinkerers
and expermenters.

I can easily imagine what would happen. An internal political brawl of
monumental proportions as every freeloader with a soldering iron
jockeyed for a piece of the action . .


Hey, they do it for DXers and contesters!

That's because there are what . . 1,000 contesters and dxers per
tinkerer?


73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

"KØHB" wrote in message thlink.net...

"Brian Kelly" wrote


The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies
by leaning on the politicians and the
courts and now it's our turn.

Good luck on that one now!


You bet . . #@!MF*#% sumbitches . . .

Would you believe I'm a REPUBLICAN for Gawd's sake?!

. . . to a point . . "they" crossed the #@!MF*#% point with BPL . .

Better get used to it, Brian. The country has turned a corner.

And this one is not the last corner it will turn. I'm a adherent of
the principles of "Newtonian Politics" . . . "For every action there
is a reaction equal in force and opposite in direction."

Bring it on . . !

- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

Alun wrote in message .. .
(Brian Kelly) wrote in
om:

"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Brian Kelly" wrote

The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies
by leaning on the politicians and the courts and now it's our turn.

Good luck on that one now!

You bet . . #@!MF*#% sumbitches . . .

Would you believe I'm a REPUBLICAN for Gawd's sake?!

. . . to a point . . "they" crossed the #@!MF*#% point with BPL . .

See you in the contest this weekend.

I don't do SS. Couldn't do it anyway, 9 + 20 neighborhood QRN here
7-29 Mhz and I don't have the room for 80/160 antennas.

Go for it and GL Hans, I'll seeya 19-20 Feb. in that bash come hell or
high water even if I gotta do it from a #@!MF*#% tent somewhere quiet.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

I beleive that you are a Republican, but I have my doubts as to whether
George Bush is one.

It's all about getting elected no matter what. The Republicans have
learned how to do it, the Democrats have apparently forgotten:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Nov3.html

73 de Jim, N2EY
73 de Jim, N2EY

Alun wrote in message . ..
(Brian Kelly) wrote in

The ham spectrum spaces need
to be protected on the same bases as the national parks are protected
and for the same reasons . . w3rv

Brian, you're right!

The issue is not that we are relevant or up to date. We're not. The issue
is that we are the public. Hobby use of the radio spectrum is justifiable
on it's own terms, and that is a matter of politics, not technology. CB and
FRS are parts of the same thing, whether we like to admit it or not, and
amateur radio is for the few who know a kilocycle from a bicycle!

The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource like
the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for business
use only.

Maybe someday the idea will gain some real traction but it'll be a
hard sell because of the bunker mentalities which will have to be
dealt with. In both Newington and in D.C.


73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

w3rv

Alun wrote in message .. .
(Brian Kelly) wrote in
om:

"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Brian Kelly" wrote

The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies
by leaning on the politicians and the courts and now it's our turn.

Good luck on that one now!

You bet . . #@!MF*#% sumbitches . . .

Would you believe I'm a REPUBLICAN for Gawd's sake?!

. . . to a point . . "they" crossed the #@!MF*#% point with BPL . .

See you in the contest this weekend.

I don't do SS. Couldn't do it anyway, 9 + 20 neighborhood QRN here
7-29 Mhz and I don't have the room for 80/160 antennas.

Go for it and GL Hans, I'll seeya 19-20 Feb. in that bash come hell or
high water even if I gotta do it from a #@!MF*#% tent somewhere quiet.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

I beleive that you are a Republican, but I have my doubts as to whether
George Bush is one.

BINGO!

A number of years ago some pundit reported on an exchange between
Dubya's daddy and Barry Goldwater: "My God, we used to be called the
far-end conservatives!"

w3rv

"KØHB" wrote in message thlink.net...
"Len Over 21" wrote

Only old-timers ever used "kilocycle."

What I wanna know is what happened signals in transit when the change
was made from "cycle" to "hertz". How did a signal which left the
transmitter thinking it was 2716 kilocycles find it's way to a receiver
which was tuned to 2716 kilohertz.

Triva question: What worldwide allocation was 2716 kilo(cycles)(hertz)?

Primary marine emergency freq?

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

Alun wrote in message . ..
(Brian Kelly) wrote in
om:

"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Brian Kelly" wrote

So BPL at this point is *all* a political and legal problem.

If that's true, then the money we've spent on lobbying by Hainie,
Sumner, and Imlay has been wasted, and any more spent would be further
waste.

Disagree. Strongly.

Here, from the FCC R&O, is what that money bought us:

"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio
frequencies warrant the special protection afforded
frequencies reserved for international aeronautical
and maritime safety operations. While we
recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist
in providing emergency communications," it described
typical amateur operations as "routine communications and hobby
activities."

I don't have a problem with that.

Face it, Brian, we've been marginalized,

We've been continuously marginalized ever since the commercial and
government services and the technologies they used passed ham radio as
a source of emergency comms and new technologies starting in the
1920s.

and for years the FCC has been
trying to get our attention. Way back in June of 2000 FCC'er Dale N.
Hatfield (W0IFO) Chief, Office of Engineering and Technology made
these comments in a speech to AMRAD:

"I would urge you to continue shifting towards more
spectrally efficient communications techniques - especially
digital techniques. Such a shift has a number of benefits:

"- First of all, it demonstrates to POLICYMAKERS and REGULATORS
that you are good stewards of the public's airwaves even without
direct economic incentives.

Then the same "POLICYMAKERS and REGULATORS" dumped BPL all over the HF
and beyond spectrum which essentially precludes the introduction of
new "spectrally efficient HF communications techniques" by any
service.

"- Second, by using what you have efficiently, it strengthens your
case when you need to ask for additional spectrum.

The last couple times we asked for more HF spectrum space we got it,
30, 17, 24 and 60 meters and none of it had anything to do with
"spectrum efficiency". Had to do with hams jumping into open spectrum
space abandoned by other services which moved to higher slots in the
spectrum.

"- Third, by allowing more users to access the available
allocations simultaneously,

What BPL "allocations"?

it improves the amateur experience and
ultimately increases the attractiveness of the service to new and old
users alike."

How in the hell does sharing 30M & 440 with the commercials "improve
the amateur experience"?

I have a 12 year old grandson who got his first peek at ham radio this
past July when I still had the FD station running in his aunt's garage
and was doing a bit of dxing and he started asking questions. I tuned
around 20M and explained what was going on and how it happens. His
opinion of ssb was that it sounded like a waste of time. I tuned some
RTTY and PSK31 which he immediately likened to his Internet
connection, "I can already do that", then I worked a couple Euros with
CW. That grabbed him and he bored into the subject. Ditto SWLing the
foreign broadcast stations. I bought him a copy of the ARRL primer on
ham radio, a copy of Passport and I need to dredge up a half-decent
rcvr for cheap, toss some wire up and I'll see what happens.

Christmas is coming, do it soon!

Just don't get him some "worldband" POJ.

He might actually enjoy an older receiver (!) simply because it's
different and not like everything else in RatShack. He sounds like the
kind of kid who may be specifically attracted to the uniqueness of HF
radio.

Then a couple of weeks later FCC Special Counsel for Amateur
Radio Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth, K4ZDH, made some
chillingly similar comments in a public speech.

"Take nothing for granted. Bill Gates can't, and you can't either."

"You're at a crossroads now. An old Chinese philosopher (or my
grandmother--I can never remember which!) said, "Be careful what
you wish for. You may get it." Seize the moment, and make this
your finest hour. Ham radio has been at a crossroads before and
has thrived. Continue that tradition."

"Make sure that, on your watch, Amateur Radio never becomes
obsolete."

Where's he been?

From those two FCC speeches, it ought to be clear to all of us that
Amateur Radio does *not* have a "free pass" to spectrum, not will our
current allocations be "protected" when other applications come
looking for a place to operate.

What "other applications" besides BPL are out there looking for HF
space? The Radio Mondiale SW broadcasters? Which want to use 10 Khz
wide digital signals to replace their existing 6 Khz wide AM signals?
There's a great example of "modern spectral efficiency".

The handwriting is on the wall --- the FCC isn't much interested in
what we used to do,

Welp, I guess that means that they're not interested in what 99.9% of
us hams do huh?

Not unless we promote it!

but is intensely watching our current stewardship of the
resources that are so highly coveted by other services. Regretably I
think we've been found, in Riley's words, "obsolete", and financing a
rearguard legal and political maneuvering by Haynie and Imlay is
pretty much ****ing money down a rathole.

Point 1: The FCC's formal rationale for the existence of ham radio is
what's actually obsolete.

It's just incomplete, that's all. Too narrowly focused. It's like
saying the only reason for sex is to make babies.

The whole pile of nonsense about justifying
ham radio based on ham emergency comms and "advancing the state of the
art" is farcical at best and needs to be recognized as such so that we
get that silly old baggage out of the way.

Hams still do *public service* comms (covers emergency comms and more)
and also "advance the state of the art" in some ways. But that view is
way too limited.

The HF spectrum is a
protected and regulated natural resource

*THAT* is the hard sell to the antiscience folks. It's clear from the
comments of BPL folks that they just don't understand HF radio.

which needs to be shared by
both common citizens like hams and others who need access to the
resource for their particular purposes.

The ham spectrum spaces need
to be protected on the same bases as the national parks are protected
and for the same reasons. One big difference between ham radio and the
national park system of course is that we don't cost the gummint squat
compared to what it spends to provide hiking trails for users of other
"antiquated technologies" like feet. Hypocrites.

That idea needs to be pushed as part of the definition of ham radio.
"Radio for its own sake" is the phrase I use.

See below for more on the parks concept.

Point 2: The coming of BPL is exactly analogous to the timber
companies clear-cutting anywhere they choose to do so. We're now in a
position to get clear-cut ourselves, that's WRONG and it's coming from
the same bunch of politicians who have the worst environmental record
and big-biz "connections" in recent times. The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies by leaning on the politicians and the
courts and now it's our turn.

Yup. And it's not just timber companies; all sorts of commercial
interests want to "develop" the "wilderness". Remember Storm King.

Point 3: With respect specifically to funding the ongoing ARRL battle
against BPL note that we managed to get the FCC to recognize that yes,
BPL does have the potential to generate harmful interference and they
handed us a few tools to deal with it as best we can. The League is
going to spend money on that effort and I continue to support their
efforts.

One of the main things the eco-folk do is to politically battle with
the regulators.

We antenna-huggers need to do the same.

"Quitters don't win."

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv


Brian, you're right!

The issue is not that we are relevant or up to date. We're not.

I disagree!

We *are* relevant, simply because we are "the public"! And we are as
"up to date" as we need to be.

The issue is that we are the public.

BINGO!

Hobby use of the radio spectrum is justifiable
on it's own terms, and that is a matter of politics, not technology.

I'd use words like "noncommercial/recreational" or "avocational"
rather than "hobby", but the concept is valid.

There should be a place for folks to enjoy radio for its own sake. As
its own justification. That does *not* mean there should be no rules
or standards, however.

CB and FRS are parts of the same thing,

Not really.

Those services are meant for specific comms purposes. That's why
they're channelized, used only approved equipment (in theory anyway)
and are restricted in other ways (you're not going to work the world
on FRS or CB).

whether we like to admit it or not, and
amateur radio is for the few who know a kilocycle from a bicycle!

The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource like
the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for business
use only.

I agree 100%. But we have to be careful in how we present the idea.

First off, amateur radio is more than "just a hobby" because of the
public service comms, technical innovation, and educational angles. We
must not lose those things - we're adding, not subtracting.

Second, although millions of acres are preserved as parks in the USA,
the total percentage of area in that system isn't very large, compared
to how big the USA is. If we try to sell ham radio on the park idea
alone, we might find ourselves with a tiny percentage of the spectrum
we now have.

Third, it's a political process, as noted above.

That said, some interesting results naturally follow from the parks
concept.

For example, although parks are theoretically open to all citizens,
there are usually requirements to be met for access - particularly to
the most unique places. Sounds like licenses, multiple classes of
license, tests, etc. Also fees, but the park system is not expected to
be a revenue source.

Many parks exist to preserve natural/wilderness locations. To do this,
a lot of technology is specifically prohibited (motor vehicles, etc.)
or severely restricted. This makes a lot of folks unhappy because you
can't just drive the RV or SUV everywhere.

Recreational technology usually doesn't exactly compare to commercial
or military technology. Sailing ships are all but gone from the
commercial shipping and fishing venues, and from the world's navies as
well. But they are all over the place in recreation.

There's also the issue of historic preservation. Often this takes the
form of preserving skills, methods, and similar things from
"modernization". For example, in Ridley Creek State Park there is a
"Colonial Plantation" where things are done as close to 18th century
ways as possible.

What makes the parks system work is that it offers experiences which
*cannot* be had other ways. No simulator or modern technology can
replace early morning on a pristine mountain lake, or sleeping under
the stars, or climbing a mountain under your own power.

Most of all, it's a constant political struggle. There are always
folks who want to cut the trees, dam the rivers, grade the roads,
drill for oil, mine the minerals, and otherwise "develop" the open
spaces. Or make them more "accessible", even though it is their wild
nature which makes them attractive in the first place.

Here's another concept to add to the pie - sports. Look at the London,
Boston and New York City marathons (just to name three) - they involve
the use of public facilities (roads) for a use that is basically
recreational for 99+% of the participants. Some folks would rather
that all those marathoners just run on treadmills rather than tying up
traffic for a day. Radiosport is a big part of amateur radio.

Now - how do we sell that package?

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...


The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource like
the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for business
use only.

Thank you for saying that, Alun. Sincere thanks.

About six years ago (or so) in here I tried to point out that there is a
good analogue between the hobby of amateur radio and the national
park service. The U.S. Park Service has a million acres (give or take)
which is reserved for ALL the citizenry to enjoy for their recreation.

Spare me . . . more snake oil . . one more of your bogus "claims to
fame" eh Sweetums?

Tsk. I don't "claim any fame" to that analogue.

Face the music (even if you are deaf), amateur radio is basically
a HOBBY. There should be absolutely nothing wrong with that
concept.

There is a lot of wrong with the political statements saying it is a
"vital need to the nation" such as for "emergency comms" as if
the time was prior to WW2 when two-way radios were scarce.

Pretending that amateur radio is "vital" is a lot of POLITICAL
bull**** and you know it.

Then four years ago you finally decided you liked the concept and
first piped up on the topic on 16 Oct 2000.

Tsk. You are getting to be the sensitive old maid like "Jim" and
want to rehash, redo, reargue old old arguments. Do you think
you might "win" one if it is endlessley repeated? (think again)


Don't fib Sweetums, you know I'm out here doing my homework.

I could care less, "Sweetums."

You are NOT interested in the subject at all, just want to FIGHT
in words. Too bad. You are already self-penalized by having
both typing hands tied behind your somewhere. Tsk.

Try living in the PRESENT, not the past and not in Google.

Bet you can't do it. :-)

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
.. .
(Brian Kelly) wrote in
om:

"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Brian Kelly" wrote

The environmentalists have
beaten back the timber companies by leaning on the politicians
and the courts and now it's our turn.

Good luck on that one now!

You bet . . #@!MF*#% sumbitches . . .

Would you believe I'm a REPUBLICAN for Gawd's sake?!

. . . to a point . . "they" crossed the #@!MF*#% point with BPL . .

See you in the contest this weekend.

I don't do SS. Couldn't do it anyway, 9 + 20 neighborhood QRN here
7-29 Mhz and I don't have the room for 80/160 antennas.

Go for it and GL Hans, I'll seeya 19-20 Feb. in that bash come hell
or high water even if I gotta do it from a #@!MF*#% tent somewhere
quiet.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

I beleive that you are a Republican, but I have my doubts as to
whether George Bush is one.

It's all about getting elected no matter what. The Republicans have
learned how to do it, the Democrats have apparently forgotten:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Nov3.html

73 de Jim, N2EY
73 de Jim, N2EY


Let me explain myself. I'm not a Republican by any stretch of the
imagination, but I think that the GOP has been hijacked by ... well, I
can''t think of any nice names for them. They seem to call themselves
compassionate conservatives. This seems to mean extreme social consrvatism
combined with a fiscally liberal policy, except that all their compassion
is directed towards the Fortune 500!