In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

I realize that we're all "bred" to diss the CBers but when it comes to
passing real emergency traffic to the authorities over the years they
have us beat by probably a couple orders of magnitude.

Good to see that someone admits it. I have personally had my live saved

a few times, and probably saved a few more by my Mobile CB.
Once I almost ran into "Hitlers armored car" (I kid you not) when the
trailer that was towing it got jacknifed and stuck across the top of
gaurdrails on Interstate 80. Nowhere to go, and all I could do was stand
on the brakes hard. I was on a curve in the road, and a trucker coming
the other way just yelled "You gotta stop NOW!" THere have been other
incidents, but none so dramatic.

No one is "bred to diss CB." The self-righteous gotta-TEST-for-HF-
access lawfulness PCTA have been BRAINWASHING succeeding
generations of hammus alabamus since 1958 (two generations plus).

You are SUPPOSED to say that CBers are river-bottom slime, the
illegal scum of the earth, all of them operating unlawfully...and other
fine examples of ultimate radio bigotry. Get with the program.

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

Leo wrote in message
...
On 09 Nov 2004 12:26:50 GMT, PAMNO (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Leo

writes:

On 5 Nov 2004 17:31:32 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

snip

Here, from the FCC R&O, is what that money bought us:

"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio
frequencies warrant the special protection afforded
frequencies reserved for international aeronautical
and maritime safety operations. While we
recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist
in providing emergency communications," it described
typical amateur operations as "routine communications
and hobby activities."

Oh oh. We've been caught. The FCC said the dreaded "hobby" word.

Then we should grab that ball and run with it!

Run with what?

With a revised definition of what ham radio is all about, and its
importance in today's world.

Then YOU should start the redefinition off instead of passing the
buck over to anyone else.

To paraphrase Orwell, the FCC sees all license holders
as equal, but some are more equal than others.....amateur radio
apparently being on the 'less than equal' side of the
equation......non-essential, per se.

I don't know about the Orwellian part ("Animal Farm" reference
well-done and duly noted) but it's hard to argue that all of amateur
radio is more important or even equal with, say, maritime or
aeronautical safety communications. What I see FCC saying is just that
those safety communications deserve the most protection.

Isn't that impossible in the self-righteous glorification of amateur
radio?

You surely must have noted the insistence by so many hams that
the government-commercial infrastructure always fails in a disaster
or emergency yet hams and ham gear are always there to take
over and save the day.

Of course the idea that *any* licensed service does not have absolute
protection from interference caused by an unlicensed, incidental
radiator is the real problem. And it's not a "science" problem but a
"political" problem.

It is ALL a "political problem." Politics DEFINES which radio
services are "licensed" or not. "Licensed" radio services did not
come about by Divine Intervention.

Most of what goes over the internet is "routine communications and hobby
activities" isn't it?

...which has what relevance to the topic of amateur radio and BPL?

BPL is being touted as something we *need*, for some reason or other.
Why do we *need* high speed internet via BPL at all? Why is such
access so needed that licensed radio services must tolerate
interference from BPL systems?

Quit asking all those questions and start giving some answers.

IOW, what will BPL do that is so much more important - more "vital" -
than ham radio and other licensed radio services?

For one thing, it would open the doors to having more Chat Rooms
where hobbyist hams could sit around all day and high-five each
other that They were of vital need to the nation (because they are
officially licensed) because the ARRL told them they were.

Jim, it looks like your "it's an avocation, not a hobby" arguement
didn't work - they seem to have seen right through it and figured out
what Amateur Radio is anyway! Nice try, though.

I say we go forward on all fronts - hobby, avocation, public service,
education, emergency comms, tinkering, advancing SOTA, etc. If they're
gonna
call us hobbyists, then make it a badge of honor, same as was done with
the
title "ham operator".

Nice flag waving, Jim, but is there a strategy behind that lofty
statement?

I'm following K0HB's "PBI" concept. Come up with ideas and see where
they lead.

You have to check in with Kellie to see if he approves of your
"brainfarts."

Go forward how, with what, to whom, and to what goals and
objectives?

Publicity, for one. How we present ourselves to Congress, the FCC, and
our BPL opponents, for another.

So far, that job has been quite POOR in the USA.

I've seen plenty of "Sportsmen for Bush" and "Sportsmen for Kerry"
bumperstickers. By folks who hunt and fish for "a hobby".

Ham radio is not a sport. Ice hockey is a sport. Hunting and
fishing are loosely defined as "sport." Ham radio is a hobby.

Or was that just a "one for the Gipper" thing that you
thought sounded real cool?

Nope.

Tsk. Sure sounded that way...

The regulatory folks have made it pretty clear - do you have a plan to
have them overruled somehow? By whom? - the decision on BPL is
entirely within their sphere of control.

Congress is one avenue. Another is simply to make amateur radio more
visible and better understood.

...which means getting BEYOND the pages of ARRL publications
and into the mass media. Very puny efforts by the ARRL to make
any sort of mass media entry in the last half century or so.

Example: The mass media journalists duly reported many, many
groups out hunting for shuttle debris, lots of photographs shown of
people engaged (and some identified) in that plus shots of debris
itself in various places of the US of A. Where was it identified that
amateur radio groups were the "leaders" or even participants of
such activity? Answer: On the league website and in QST. Not
exactly mass media outlets.

More examples: Many disasters and emergencies have been
chronicled by the news media in the last half century, much film
and video footage, many many photos, hundreds of column-inches
of type composed about all that. Hardly any mention at all of ham
radio involvement and, if it were, confined to what has been termed
"health and welfare" messaging. Where has it been glowingly
reported as of vital interest? On the league website and in pages of
QST. Again, NOT mass media.

Amateur radio publicity MUST go beyond the puny efforts of the
league in getting out the message. The league has been ineffective
using its old approach.

Cable TV has hundreds of channels covering an amazing assortment
of activities. There are at least three programs on Arts and Crafts on
the schedules (would have been a fourth but Aleene's went off).
There are none about amateur radio. Has "Dateline" or "60 Minutes"
done any reporting of amateur radio in their existance on network TV?
Any of the news broadcasts? [answer: Hardly any if at all.]

Yet the league glowling reports (in remarkable vague implications)
all the wonderful work done by amateurs and they Believe it all, hook
line and sinker. You should realize that league self-glorification is
what they do for a living...to convince all that they should be members
and that they tell members and non-members what they psychologically
want to hear. It ain't necessarily detailed truth, but mostly implied
doing of good works.


Actually, I see the VHF/UHF allocations as being much more threatened
by reallocation than HF.

If you've been following all the agencies and organizations going after
"bands" you should have said all that spectral territory ABOVE 1 GHz
if where the activity is...UHF is essentially fixed as to occupiers now
(except some rare instances of government frequencies being freed to
allow allocation by the FCC). The radio world is concerned with HF
primarily to keep what it has...few are trying to get any part of it.


Which, unfortunately, is what the FCC R&O quoted above boils down to -
no special protection warranted, it's just a hobby activity.

*Most* amateur communications aren't emergency communications. Never
have been.

"Never have been" what? Finish the sentence.

The
emergency communications aspect was dismissed pretty neatly in their
statement.....the condescending "while we recognize..." line.

My point is simply that the FCC isn't buying the argument that we hams
need complete protection from BPL because we *sometimes* do emergency
communications. Neither do the CC&R folks. So we need a new tactic.

Realization! Amazing! A new dawning! :-)

Like the "Sportsmen for X" folks. Part of which is a revised
definition that shows how unique and valuable a resource amateur radio
is - just like the park system.

Amateur radio is NOT "just like the park system." Never was.

USE of an analogue in POLITICAL divvying-up of resources does
NOT mean "just like it." It is just politics. You have to go after it
in a political manner...and NOT confine all efforts within the limits
of a single membership organization that hasn't gotten much
mass media exposure in the last half century.

Even though I'll probably never visit most of the nation's parks, they
are of value to me.

You should get out more. :-)

[try a "Lifetime Membership Pass" from the National Park Service]

But...none of the Parks I know about have anyone extoling the
"unique and valuable resources" of ham radio or morse code, so
I doubt you will ever bother with one of those. :-)

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Isn't bullemia a cow with a nutrition problem?

It would be a cow with no sex life.

Sort of what happens to those who get off on fantasy dreams of
hobbies being much more than hobbies...a vital need to the nation,
etc.

Go with the "creshendo" of noble, self-glorifying elevation of a fun
hobby into something god-like in its majesty. ["creshendo -
menudo without the guts" i.e., tripe ]

So...have those "hobbyists on ice" settled their strike yet? :-)

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

The phrase I object to is "*just* a hobby" - which denies the components of
public service, education, etc.

Correct. Calling it Just a hobby is like calling Nascar racing "just a
bunch of people in cars. Self illuminated ignorance.

Tsk, tsk. Calling a PROFESSIONAL SPORT like NASCAR a
"hobby" is like saying the Toronto Mapel Leafs are "just a bunch
of skaters playing on ice." Does ham radio go on strike? :-)
[I could say "puck you" but that would elicit terrible gasps from
the rever-end and the prussian schoolmaster...:-) ]

NASCAR vehicles go faster on land than a certain CAP ace does
in his lil two-seater (as "pilot in command") in the air.

So...ham radio is a noble service to the people NOT IN ham radio?
It is of vital need of the nation? It "educates" the masses on the
theory and techniques of radio? Ham radio survives all disasters
when all the infrastructure (commercial, professional built) "fails?"

Go for it. Fantasyland is without limits.

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

"Bringing up old postings again and again is just a mental form
of bullemia."

"Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome..."

Leonard, with due respect to your claimed professionalism as a writer,
among other things, do you mean "bulimia"? :-) :-) :-)

Your output is largely bull. Ergo, the new way to spell a word for
your barfing. No problem.

Same-o, same-o for the good Rever-never-end "Jim."

Don't get a hisnia lifting such weighty subjects...

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...

The parks argument is a good one. The spectum is a natural resource
like

the forest and the shoreline, and like those it shouldn't be for
business
use only.

Thank you for saying that, Alun. Sincere thanks.

About six years ago (or so) in here I tried to point out that there
is
a
good analogue between the hobby of amateur radio and the national
park service. The U.S. Park Service has a million acres (give or
take)
which is reserved for ALL the citizenry to enjoy for their
recreation.

You did?

Google up the post for us, please, Len. Your experience in computer-modem
communications should make that an easy task for you.

Old-maid Jim is still into Googling bullemia syndrome, still trying to
argue old, old postings all over again. And again. And again. :-)

It is "bulimia", Len. Master the word and make it your own. :-)

I'd say Jim has done a fair job of it. You've been caught with your
pants down, old boy.

Spare me . . . more snake oil . . one more of your bogus "claims to
fame" eh Sweetums?

Tsk. I don't "claim any fame" to that analogue.

Then why did you mention it, Len?

Tsk. All WRONG again, Jimmie? :-)

Kellie brought up "claim to fame." I just repudiated it.

...but not successfully.

All you want to do is re-argue the PAST. :-)

And all you want to do is tap dance out of this mess of your own
creation.

While I can still manage a time-step or two, this isn't a stage
and you are not the audience...but you are rather the usher
self-important and with a small flashlight, the one who keeps
getting gum on his shoe soles.


Face the music (even if you are deaf), amateur radio is basically
a HOBBY. There should be absolutely nothing wrong with that
concept.

What's "wrong" is when someone denies that there are any "nonhobby"
aspects to
amateur radio. Such as emergency and public service communications,
education,
advancing the state of the art, etc.

Of course...like "advancing the state of the art" in home building
all-tube rigs in the 1990s. :-)

You can't admit that a number of hams are involved in the public service
aspects of amateur radio?

NOT near enough to qualify for the self-glorifying political definitions
in Part 97...and certainly not from the implied greatness and nobility
written up by the league.


Three earthquakes, not just one. :-)

But it is a matter of public record that radio amateurs participated.
Names and calls have been published. How do you account for that?

ARRL does the "publishing." Mass media it is NOT.

Wire services have "published" all that? I think NOT. Broadcast
TV news "published" all that? I think NOT.

Being "published" in the weekly Podunk Hollow 6-pager might
satisfy legal necessities of "publishing" but the citizenry still
doesn't know about amateur radio in detail.

Tsk. I was out there, not just "watching TV." Didn't see any "ham
emergency" crews at the disaster centers. Maybe they were all
home using CW on their rigs? [ "CW gets through when nothing else
will...even without electrical power!" ]

To make this clear for us, you were actually at the involved disaster
centers, Len? All of 'em? So you know for a fact that no radio
amateurs were involved in these earthquakes?

I've been to more of them than you. :-)

Do I know "for a fact" there were no amateurs involved? No, because
I don't read QST to find out. I was THERE. Nobody wearing a ham
HT on their belt, nobody with a little callsign pin on, no mobiles
parked. Just the regular emergency workers plus the FEMA fly-away
terminal showing TV with notes posted from anxious relatives.


I've seen no government nor NASA reports stating, "No radio amateurs
were involved".

I've seen no government nor NASA reports stating, "Radio amateurs
were involved." If you've seen such a statement, provide the source
so that Newington can be better educated.


There are plenty of good citizens. Not all of them are equipped to to
what radio amateurs did in this case. Why the dodge?

"Dodge?" No Dodge, dude. Wife and I drive our Chevrolet.

Gosh, "Dave," I've seen no government nor NASA reports that
ONLY hams are "good citizens" or that they were "the only ones
equipped (with ham radio) to do the shuttle debris searching!

Was that in some sensitive (secret) government report that ONLY
ex-State people were cleared to read?

Pretending that amateur radio is "vital" is a lot of POLITICAL
bull**** and you know it.

What does it take for something to be "vital", Len?

Constant reading and listening to the ARRL. :-)

Whatsa matter? You couldn't think of an answer?

That WAS the ANSWER, "Dave." The league is constantly self-
glorifying itself and always depicts amateur radio as a vital necessity,
etc., etc., etc.


Kellie wanna practice mental bullemia and barf up old postings.

Len, one time is a mistake. The word is "bulimia".

"Dave," your word is BULL.


Tsk. You morsemen weren't able to successfully argue your cases
for anything in the past...now you disguise your later comments on
old things as some kind of "truth" of "new things?"

Keep tap dancing, Len.

Tsk. Got rid of my Haney Plates years ago.

"Dave," you are still behaving as the prussian schoolmaster wanting
to humiliate his "students.' You are neither schoolmaster nor
"expert" but your attitude is superbly prussian. [but with a lower
case undeserving of capitalization]

That's NOT "weaseling out." That's just plain nuts, morseman.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that the idea belonged to
another, can you?

I have plenty of analogues and admire those who are original, such
as the comparison of the park system to setting aside spectrum
for hobbyist activities.

YOU continually overlook the subject (the analogue) in a poor
effort to attempt humiliation and defamation of a single poster as
"your argument." That is faulty...but you seem to think you have
NO faults.


The volume of your material in an attempted defense of the indefensible,
says otherwise. You care.

Tsk. I can't possibly "care." You said (repeatedly) I am "not involved."


That's quite a rant, Leonard. There's a running QST item most months
which is called "Media Hits". What kind of items do you think it
highlights?

Some squib in the Podunk Valley Hollow weekly 6-pager?
A Mike Douglas TV show item? :-)

Sorry, but the ARRL has been ineffective on getting mass media
exposure to amateur radio for years...a whole half-century worth.
The best it can hope for in "media hits" is to have CQ quote from
the league website on something. All that stays INSIDE the ham
media, doesn't venture OUTSIDE to where the politicians and the
rest of the citizenry see news and events.

Some hams, like yourself, want to stay insular to keep your
brainwashing clean and intact with old ideas. That way you can
freely fantasize on how "vital, unique, and resourceful" you all
are (along with pipe dreams of heroism, saving the day, etc.) in
some weird rationalization of "justifying" your hobby. You DO do
that and get very angry when you don't get high-fives for your
fantasyworld accomplishments. Your worry, not mine. "I'm not
involved." :-)

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Now, now Steve, Christmas is coming, it's time to get into the spirit
and put these sorts of things behind us. Motion from the floor: "I
propose that we pass the hat to fund a gift certificate for Sweetums
for two hours of couch time at his shrink's office."

Shirley, you could almost pay for that time yourself...from the
royalties of all those TWENTY-SIX PATENTS! :-)

BWAYHAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... etc

Do I hear a second?

You just did. It went "tick." Your time is up.

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
Len Over 21 wrote:

Kellie no got "new" information. :-)

Kellie wanna practice mental bullemia and barf up old postings.

Len, one time is a mistake. The word is "bulimia".

It's his latest non-invention. QRX,I'm Googling again . . .


Dave K8MN

w3rv

(Brian Kelly) wrote

How, exactly, would that work Hans?

"Exactly" I can't give you (but you knew that anyhow).

What I can give you is the proven notion that rewarding a certain sort
of behaviour reinforces that behaviour.

73, de Hans, K0HB

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Leo

writes:

On 5 Nov 2004 17:31:32 -0800, (Brian Kelly) wrote:

snip

Here, from the FCC R&O, is what that money bought us:

"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio
frequencies warrant the special protection afforded
frequencies reserved for international aeronautical
and maritime safety operations. While we
recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist
in providing emergency communications," it described
typical amateur operations as "routine communications
and hobby activities."

Oh oh. We've been caught. The FCC said the dreaded "hobby" word.

Then we should grab that ball and run with it!

Most of what goes over the internet is "routine communications and hobby
activities" isn't it?

Is surfing porn a hobby?

I don't really know......

I suppose for some it is.

Note, however, that the specific product named is produced by both amateurs and
professionals.

Jim, it looks like your "it's an avocation, not a hobby" arguement
didn't work - they seem to have seen right through it and figured out
what Amateur Radio is anyway! Nice try, though.

I say we go forward on all fronts - hobby, avocation, public service,
education, emergency comms, tinkering, advancing SOTA, etc. If they're
gonna
call us hobbyists, then make it a badge of honor, same as was done with the
title "ham operator".

Ain't nuthin wrong wit it bein a hobby!

As long as the other aspects are not denied, I agree.

And this goes beyond the BPL battle. Take CC&R struggles - would they try
to ban other "hobbies"?

I like the term "antenna-hugger" myself.

Just watch which part you hug when its operating....

Yup.

---

The phrase I object to is "*just* a hobby" - which denies the components of
public service, education, etc.

Correct. Calling it Just a hobby is like calling Nascar racing "just a
bunch of people in cars. Self illuminated ignorance.

Volunteer firemen aren't paid - does that make what they do "just a hobby"?

How about people who do other forms of volunteer work?

73 de Jim, N2EY