In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote



Twist? A large part of your post was quoting:



The quotes (of the FCC officials) were selected to point out what the
regulators seem to be expecting of us.



I'll assume that you believe what you posted? (correct me if I'm
wrong)



Yes, I believe that is what those regulators said.



I would hope you would set a good example by taking the lead.



I did take the lead, by trying to point out what seems to be the
prevailing regulatory attitude towards us. I further took the lead by
pointing out that I feel the ARRL ought to shift some of the 'political'
spending into programs which sponsor and nuture an attitude of tinkering
and experimenting among amateurs.



I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?



Maybe I'll bite. What's up?

A near space Science project, such as I outlined to Jim, is a great way

for Hams to get involved in a whole lot of fun, and a bit of work, but
that can be fun too.

Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.

Have you looked at Federal Air Regulations in regard to such
high altitudes? This isn't like hot-air ballooning at low altitudes
where manned free balloons have rights of way over all others.

Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most
launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to
get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.

The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up
and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.

You need to do some math on that before envisioning such a "low-
cost" approach to get to 100 Kilofeet. Those 8-foot (typical)
"weather balloons" aren't going to get up that high, not even a mass
of them.

You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude. It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.

The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the heart of

the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.
The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.

That's going to be a minor cost item. As you will find out, the
balloon structure, its support infrastructure, and lifting gas will
cost more than you think..

In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.

Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of coverage at
100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10 meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.

Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.

You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects have
quite objective, finite budgets.

The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Check out the prices for helium with a gas supplier, plus what it
takes to haul to HEAVY gas cylinders to a launch area, plus the
metering system plus the filling system plus whatever else. All
that after you've investigated what the actual lifting capacity will
be in terms of ounces per cubic feet of balloon. [I said ounces,
not pounds...lighter than air does not mean negative weight]

You could get "efficiency" by going for hydrogen gas...which is
offset by very direct DANGER from many and varied sources.

Still going for 100,000 foot altitude? Start thinking in terms of
the balloon exapanding to something on the order of EIGHT times
in size at altitude maximum. That's visible on some of the high
altitude research balloon flights of the 1960s using lots and lots
of plastic sheet for balloon material.

Your project may need a virgin...such as Richard Branson...to
help start it off.

Now, if you are REALLY thinking about this whole thing, look into
"Project STAR" and a little thing like a model airplane that crossed
the Atlantic (from Newfoundland to the Irish coast) during the 38
hours in August 9, 10, and 11, 2003. Laugh all you want but a few
guys from around DC managed to do that through GPS guidance
on board as an autopilot. You can read about it at

http://tam.plannet21.com/index.htm

Pictures and stuff to guide you even if you are not into model flying.
38 hours (approx) of powered flight using only 5.5 pounds of fuel,
flight path of 1882 miles. Radio control only for take off and climb-
out, then landing in Ireland...the rest entirely on "autopilot." It had
some means of reporting its position to earth via satellites. That
alone would be of interest to anything else involving GPS location
or guidance.

Search around on the huge NASA website for atmospheric info,
especially for density versus height. You could do an approximate
curve of payload + balloon weight versus cost of helium in hundreds
of cubic feet to whatever altitude limit. That will give you some
realistic viewing into feasibility of it all.

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message

...

KØHB wrote:


"Mike Coslo" wrote




Twist? A large part of your post was quoting:



The quotes (of the FCC officials) were selected to point out what the
regulators seem to be expecting of us.




I'll assume that you believe what you posted? (correct me if I'm
wrong)



Yes, I believe that is what those regulators said.




I would hope you would set a good example by taking the lead.



I did take the lead, by trying to point out what seems to be the
prevailing regulatory attitude towards us. I further took the lead by
pointing out that I feel the ARRL ought to shift some of the 'political'
spending into programs which sponsor and nuture an attitude of tinkering
and experimenting among amateurs.



I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?



Maybe I'll bite. What's up?

A near space Science project, such as I outlined to Jim, is a great way


for Hams to get involved in a whole lot of fun, and a bit of work, but
that can be fun too.

Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.


Have you looked at Federal Air Regulations in regard to such
high altitudes? This isn't like hot-air ballooning at low altitudes
where manned free balloons have rights of way over all others.

Yes, I have. They are surprisingly accommodating.


Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

And they still are. One big difference is that they don't attempt to
get their payloads back. They do have a return address on them, and
there is about a 20 percent return rate. That surprised me a bit.


The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most
launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to
get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.

The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up
and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.


You need to do some math on that before envisioning such a "low-
cost" approach to get to 100 Kilofeet. Those 8-foot (typical)
"weather balloons" aren't going to get up that high, not even a mass
of them.

Really?

You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude. It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.


The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the heart of


the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.
The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.


That's going to be a minor cost item. As you will find out, the
balloon structure, its support infrastructure, and lifting gas will
cost more than you think..

Everything always costs more than we think! 8^)


In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.

Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of coverage at
100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10 meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.


Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

Back when we had those coal burnin' GPS satellites!


The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.


You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm

Could you cite where you got your information?


And it can be done for surprisingly little money.


"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects have
quite objective, finite budgets.

And you expect me to post my budget here? "Suprisingly little" is
precise enough for general notes in here.


The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.


Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project. The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.

I like organizing groups of people that share a common task.

Wanna help?


This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.


"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Heh, Better check the citizenship of those engineering students.


Its great publicity for Amateur radio.


It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

Thanks for the balloon history.


And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.


You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Wanna help?


Check out the prices for helium with a gas supplier, plus what it
takes to haul to HEAVY gas cylinders to a launch area, plus the
metering system plus the filling system plus whatever else. All
that after you've investigated what the actual lifting capacity will
be in terms of ounces per cubic feet of balloon. [I said ounces,
not pounds...lighter than air does not mean negative weight]

You could get "efficiency" by going for hydrogen gas...which is
offset by very direct DANGER from many and varied sources.

Still going for 100,000 foot altitude? Start thinking in terms of
the balloon exapanding to something on the order of EIGHT times
in size at altitude maximum. That's visible on some of the high
altitude research balloon flights of the 1960s using lots and lots
of plastic sheet for balloon material.

Your project may need a virgin...such as Richard Branson...to
help start it off.

http://www.eoss.org/index.html

http://www.amsat.org/amsat/balloons/balloon.htm

http://www.ansr.org/html/index.php

http://frodo.bruderhof.com/hambone/index.html

http://habitat.netlab.org/index.shtml

http://www.qsl.net/k8uo/UM201.htm

http://balloons.aero.und.edu/habp/

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~tjs//Balloons.html

http://cosmos.aeem.iastate.edu/HABET/

http://www.nstar.org/


Read the links (just a suggestion - I know you don't like being told
what to do) Check out the links. Do a little homework.


I usually give you a pass on most things. But dozens of amateurs are
doing this. Now, with real payloads, inexpensively.

You are very, very wrong.

Rest snipped

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Lenover21 wrote in part:

Still going for 100,000 foot altitude? Start thinking in terms of
the balloon exapanding to something on the order of EIGHT times
in size at altitude maximum. That's visible on some of the high
altitude research balloon flights of the 1960s using lots and lots
of plastic sheet for balloon material.

An addition to my earlier post.....


Those large plastic balloons are not used solely to hold large amounts
of helium, although they do.

The zero pressure balloons, as they are called, are actually open at
the bottom. As the helium expands with the increase in height, the
balloon eventually reaches an equilibrium point where some of the helium
escapes through the bottom vent. At this point, the balloon levels off,
maintaining roughly the same altitude. These balloons are used for large
payloads, and/or a payload that is designed to stay up for a relatively
long time. Quite a simple and elegant solution.

For the purpose of Amateur near space science, we usually want to get
the payload up and down in a fairly short order. Latex balloons are the
ticket for that.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.

Ever hear of this guy, Mike?

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...ters_and_Dared
evils/Kittinger/EX31.htm

Or this woman:

http://www.stratoquest.com/

Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.

I kinda suspected that...

Besides, the 100,000 foot level is a goal, not something done on the first
flight.

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

YEEEHAAAHHHH!!!!!

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Too cool.

With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

I suspect a lot of the cost if it were done by professionals would be in the
form of payrolls and benefits...

The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

And people who might just want to make a donation of money or hardware.

Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project.

??

Why would that be?

The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.


http://www.eoss.org/index.html

http://www.amsat.org/amsat/balloons/balloon.htm

http://www.ansr.org/html/index.php

http://frodo.bruderhof.com/hambone/index.html

http://habitat.netlab.org/index.shtml

http://www.qsl.net/k8uo/UM201.htm

http://balloons.aero.und.edu/habp/

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~tjs//Balloons.html

http://cosmos.aeem.iastate.edu/HABET/

http://www.nstar.org/

oh man....I'm gonna be online a while....

Good luck, Mike. If nothing else, a lot of hams will contribute a few dollars
just to be a small part of it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.


Ever hear of this guy, Mike?

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...ters_and_Dared
evils/Kittinger/EX31.htm

Or this woman:

http://www.stratoquest.com/


Good links. I wish here luck, and his web pages are fascinating. I knew
of his record setting jumo, but the other info was new to me. What I
like is that picture of him immediately after jumping off the platform.
There's a pucker moment!


Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.


I kinda suspected that...

Besides, the 100,000 foot level is a goal, not something done on the first
flight.

As likely as not, the initial flights will be tethered. Those will
check out the functionality of the equipment. In fact, depending on the
launch day conditions, we may want to peak at decidedly less than
100,000 feet. Altitude is not strictly the goal.



The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.


The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.


YEEEHAAAHHHH!!!!!


All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.


Too cool.

Not even imaginable not too long ago.


With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm



And it can be done for surprisingly little money.


I suspect a lot of the cost if it were done by professionals would be in the
form of payrolls and benefits...

Big time. Volunteers are the heart and soul of the operation. People
that simply find this sort of thing fascinating.


The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.


And people who might just want to make a donation of money or hardware.

Yup. I even have a few HT's to donate to the cause. Bought cheap at
hamfests.


Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project.

??

Why would that be?

The party is on state park land in the middle of a state forest. This
meant permits and waivers. This meant The group had to be incorporated
as a nonprofit corporation, with all the legal fees and paperwork
involved with that sort of thing. Compliance with all the park
regulations had to be made, with the exception of the exceptions that
had to be granted, in order to put the thing on. Proofs of insurance of
the correct kind had to be made. Electrical power had to be provided via
another group that owned poles on the property, which ended up with me
having to work with both the group and the local pupblic utilities.

It took me the better part of a year to prepare just that -
disregarding the details of the actual party.


The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.



http://www.eoss.org/index.html

http://www.amsat.org/amsat/balloons/balloon.htm

http://www.ansr.org/html/index.php

http://frodo.bruderhof.com/hambone/index.html

http://habitat.netlab.org/index.shtml

http://www.qsl.net/k8uo/UM201.htm

http://balloons.aero.und.edu/habp/

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~tjs//Balloons.html

http://cosmos.aeem.iastate.edu/HABET/

http://www.nstar.org/


oh man....I'm gonna be online a while....

Good luck, Mike. If nothing else, a lot of hams will contribute a few dollars
just to be a small part of it.

Thanks Jim. The initial flights will probably be scaled down proof of
concept ones.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:


Have you looked at Federal Air Regulations in regard to such
high altitudes? This isn't like hot-air ballooning at low altitudes
where manned free balloons have rights of way over all others.

Yes, I have. They are surprisingly accommodating.

"Accommodating" whom? You didn't sumarize, compose a precis
or anything else. What does the FAR SAY?

Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

And they still are. One big difference is that they don't attempt to
get their payloads back. They do have a return address on them, and
there is about a 20 percent return rate. That surprised me a bit.

They are? How do you know?


You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude. It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.

Welp, since you didn't really look, here's a capsule from an on-line
calculator:

At 1000 feet, temp 55.4 F, 14.17 PSI, density 1.1896 Kg/cubic meter.

At 10K feet, temp 23.3 F, 10.11 PSI, density 0.9046 Kg/cubic meter.

At 100K feet, temp -50.8 F, 0.1581 PSI, density 0.0167 Kg/cubic meter.

Notice how the DENSITY drops off at a remarkable rate past 10,000
feet. [Density is going to be very important since it will determine
the limit of buoyancy of the whole balloon]


Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.

Tsk. I didn't see much of any "knowledge" displayed, or any sort of
hard science. The Standard Atmosphere has been public for over a
half century, most countries. While the 1976 model has been revised
a couple times since, the basic data is mostly in refinement.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

Back when we had those coal burnin' GPS satellites!

Many, MANY balloons have been lofted (other than rawinsondes)
BEFORE the precursor to GPS, NAVSTAR, was first launched.
That was around 1971 or better than 33 years ago.

Neither GPSS nor NAVSTAR nor GLONASS used "coal" to burn
for anything.


The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.


You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm

Sorry, sport, but 100 kilofeet of altitude is something you will NOT
do with some surplus "latex weather balloons."

10 kilofeet maybe.

It has to do with BUOYANCY. As the density drops, so does the
"lifting power" of the displaced air (from the balloon itself).

Worse yet, as the altitude increases, the pressure drops but the
lifting gas inside the balloon remains at the same pressure...which
will drop depending on the expansion capability of the balloon
material. At some point, the differential pressure can exceed the
strength of the balloon material. Pop goes the balloon.

Could you cite where you got your information?

Yes, I can. Old stuff, really. You can do a search under "standard
atmosphere" and get a whole pot of hits, from NASA through
ordinary-folk sites (some having on-line calculators). There's
enough material in basic text books on atmosphere plus gasses.

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects have
quite objective, finite budgets.

And you expect me to post my budget here? "Suprisingly little" is
precise enough for general notes in here.

So far, you've been only as concrete as a pipe dream. Ambiguous
statements.

Now you get all hurt because I post some HARD science figures which
WILL come and bite your project's butt if you don't start getting some
non-ambiguous numbers.

Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project. The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.

I like organizing groups of people that share a common task.

Wanna help?

"Help" who? Mike Coslo making a name for hisself?

Sorry, in that I am definitely NOT involved.

Balloons have been launched from USA soil for over 200 years.
"New" they are NOT.

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

Tsk. Those "rare" American scientists are still being awarded
Nobel Prizes. Even this year.

"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Heh, Better check the citizenship of those engineering students.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

Is it? The globe has been circumnavigated by balloon, millions of
those radio-carrying rawinsondes have been launched and tracked
(by radio, no GPS needed) since they were started. Kids can get
balloons as giveaways in larger stores...or are given out at parties.

It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

Thanks for the balloon history.

Tsk. LOTS more "history" available. I just picked a book from the
shelf at home. Got more on lighter-than-air-flight.


And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Wanna help?

Sorry, I'm not "involved."

Too much "hot air" being generated on this "idea" and it hasn't
"lifted" me.


Read the links (just a suggestion - I know you don't like being told
what to do) Check out the links. Do a little homework.

"Do a little 'homework?'" Will there be a "test?"

I've been involved in basic atmospheric data at work for decades
AND have done a bit of lighter-than-air flight experiments as a
hobby...including some careful measurements of structures and
gas bag material, lifting power versus temperature and local
pressure, etc.


I usually give you a pass on most things. But dozens of amateurs are
doing this. Now, with real payloads, inexpensively.

You are very, very wrong.

You are very, very petulant.

You give some ambiguous phraseology to the group with a bad "sell"
image and try to flummox someone with the "it's all for ham radio!"
spiel. Not a good way to get a project started.

HARD NUMBERS will give the story's baseline...followed by some
kind of estimate of project cost. The best way is to have some kind
of "rep" behind you.

Case example: Maynard Hill was the builder and trier-outer of the
TAM project (Trans-Atlantic Model). He had been setting model
records (recorded by FAI) for a mere 35 years, mostly in R/C flying
(altitude way up to the 20s of kilofeet, distance better than 750
miles to name two). His local club knew it and formed the "STAR"
group to get in on the TAM. It took OVER two dozen airframes
(built by Hill) to get to the 2003 record breaker after two prior years
of all involved footing their own bills to reach Newfoundland and
Ireland. By the way, amateur radio WAS involved in that effort.

Hill didn't have a big "salesman" pitch. He isn't the type. He
tries...and doesn't make a big noise about it whether winning or
losing...but he generally WINS much more than losing. No blue
skies approach with ambiguous numbers and amorphous
statements..."here's what I think it can do..." followed by some
estimates which were based on lots and lots of past performance.

Now NONE of that model flying thing has any relation to ham
radio (other than ham radio being a help in it) but it DOES serve
to demonstrate that a purely hobby pursuit CAN do things...based
on the can-do types having shown that they can in the past.

So, you want "help?" When you can't even cite some stuff from
the Standard Atmosphere that's been around for longer than half
a century? Not likely from me.

Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.

Realism?


So be it. If you wish to believe that this cannot be done, despite
overwhelming evidence that it can and is being done with regularity,
then I commend you in the strength of your belief. ;^)

This is *so odd* - it's like trying to describe how an antenna works,
yet getting bogged down by people that refuse to believe that we can
extrude aluminum, that the government would allow people to talk over
wireless connections, and besides, it is impossible for electromagfetic
waves to travel through the air anyway.

At any rate, I am moving on with the project. If you choose to believe
that Myself and others are not doing this, then have at it! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:24:23 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:50:46 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Len Over 21 wrote:

a lot of stuff snipped

It's times like this that can bring people together. You and Brian
Kelly have something in common.


Realism?

Perhaps you could tell me, Leo? I've shown that it can and does happen
and that a lot of people are doing exactly what I speak of on a regular
basis. Believe or don't believe. It is your choice.

Mike, my point was that you have two folks with a fair amount of
knowledge and experience taking the time to give you feedback. They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

If they are missing something (and me too, perhaps - this sure ain't
my area of expertise either!), then by all means show them where
they're wrong - but they are both pretty intelligent, educated and
knowledgeable guys, with years of real-world experience in their
fields - maybe worth at least a rational discussion? Or you could
throw a bunch of web references in their faces and get angry....

Your call.


- Mike KB3EIA -

73, Leo