N2EY wrote:
In article , Cmd Buzz Corey
writes:


wrote:


Never mind that BPL turns all of the
house wiring, not just the distribution wiring, into a noise radiator,
even if you're not a subscriber.
73 de Jim, N2EY


What if I don't want BPL signals on my house wiring, which I own,
interfering with radio reception in my house? Can I demand they keep
their BPL signals out of my private wiring?


(Standard "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer HERE)

Seems to me that the first thing you'd have to do is *prove* that the BPL is
causing you "harmful interference". Then you'd have to let the BPL providers do
whatever they can to reduce or eliminate it - and FCC expects you to show "good
faith" and cooperate with them. And even if the interference is not eliminated,
FCC may or may not force the BPL folks to do anything about it besides trying
to solve the problem.

And so what then happens when in the normal course of your station
operation, you interfere with your neighbor kid's porn downloads? Same
rules apply?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Seems to me that the first thing you'd have to do is *prove* that the BPL
is
causing you "harmful interference". Then you'd have to let the BPL
providers do
whatever they can to reduce or eliminate it - and FCC expects you to show
"good
faith" and cooperate with them. And even if the interference is not
eliminated,
FCC may or may not force the BPL folks to do anything about it besides
trying
to solve the problem.

And so what then happens when in the normal course of your station
operation, you interfere with your neighbor kid's porn downloads? Same
rules apply?

Who knows?

As I understand it, the old concepts worked like this:

One of the prime directives of the FCC was to protect the various radio
services from interference. This meant both interference between different
radio services, and interference from other electrical devices. Licensed radio
servics *always* had priority over nonradio electrical devices.

For example, if you had a business that used an RF-based heatsealing machine,
and the machine radiated RF that interfered with someone's radio operations,
you'd be required to shield it so no harmful interference resulted, or shut
down.

In almost all cases, methods of interference abatement have been developed. The
RF-based heatsealing machines were shielded to the point that they didn't
radiate enough to interfere, and their frequencies of operation chosen to avoid
common problems if some RF did leak out.

These rules usually worked OK for point sources of RF in industrial
environments. But BPL is neither a point source, nor is it usually meant for
industrial environments.

What's different about how FCC has addressed BPL is that the potential for
interference is not only obvious, it's been demonstrated - and remediation
techniques are very limited, because the power lines make good antennas by
their very nature! Yet FCC allows BPL to exist, probably because it's more a
political decision than an engineering one.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

.. . . .


For example, if you had a business that used an RF-based heatsealing
machine,
and the machine radiated RF that interfered with someone's radio
operations,
you'd be required to shield it so no harmful interference resulted,
or shut
down.


'Scuse the silly nit-picking here but those unlicensed old open-cabinet
induction heat-sealing machines operated around 27 Mhz back when
licensed hams also operated on those freqs. If I recall it right
problem was that 11M was a shared band and us licensed types had no
legal bitch on heat-sealing machine RFI, it was live with it or go play
on some other ham band.

But eventually the FCC lowered the boom on the heat-sealing machines.
Then they tossed us out of the band and turned it over to the CBers.
Which at the time was (temporarily) another licensed service. Ah, the
webs "they" weave . . !

. . . .


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article . com,
writes:

N2EY wrote:

. . . .

For example, if you had a business that used an RF-based heatsealing
machine,
and the machine radiated RF that interfered with someone's radio
operations,
you'd be required to shield it so no harmful interference resulted,
or shut down.

'Scuse the silly nit-picking here but those unlicensed old open-cabinet
induction heat-sealing machines operated around 27 Mhz back when
licensed hams also operated on those freqs. If I recall it right
problem was that 11M was a shared band and us licensed types had no
legal bitch on heat-sealing machine RFI, it was live with it or go play
on some other ham band.

Yep - that was the old ISM band (industrial-scientific-medical). Remember
diathermy machines?

The problem was that those machines were often spectrally unclean. Harmonics
all over the place - including high band VHF mobile. And there was often nobody
in the plant who really understood how they worked or checked up on whether
they were still in the band.

knew an operation in the '60s that had a rather interesting visit from
Philadelphia's Finest because their machine had a harmonic on the dispatch
channel. Commissioner and later Mayor Rizzo was *not* pleased...

But eventually the FCC lowered the boom on the heat-sealing machines.
Then they tossed us out of the band and turned it over to the CBers.
Which at the time was (temporarily) another licensed service. Ah, the
webs "they" weave . . !

Yup.

btw, Chambersburg dumped their BPL proposal. See the ARRL website - local
opposition caused the town fathers to look elsewhere for broadband.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 29 Jan 2005 01:51:32 -0800, wrote:

'Scuse the silly nit-picking here

Ah!! Something that I can join in with....

but those unlicensed old open-cabinet
induction heat-sealing machines operated around 27 Mhz back when
licensed hams also operated on those freqs. If I recall it right
problem was that 11M was a shared band and us licensed types had no
legal bitch on heat-sealing machine RFI, it was live with it or go play
on some other ham band.

But eventually the FCC lowered the boom on the heat-sealing machines.

The major problem with the old-style heat sealers was the harmonics
which were generated - the fundamental frequency swept upwards as
the plasitic melted and the fifth harmonics fell in the aviation band.

Upon complaint from the FAA backed up by FCC field measurments, the
local FCC Engineer in Charge (now called District Director) has the
legal authority to issue a Cease and Desist Order closing down not
only the machine in question but the entire site until the site was
certified harmonic-free and so verified by an overflight of the
FAA's (notorious) instrumentation plane, usually piloted by a
someone we called - with sufficient reason - "Vertical John". We
always declined to accompany him....

We didn't like to use that authority too often because it would result
in the unemployment of a lot of minimum-wage immigrant employees.

Then they tossed us out of the band and turned it over to the CBers.
Which at the time was (temporarily) another licensed service. Ah, the
webs "they" weave . . !

In reality, it came about when the ITU designated the band 27.12 +/-
160 kHz for "Industrial, Scientific, and Medical" and in came the
heat sealers, diathermy machines, and similar noise generators. That
resulted in 11 meters being turned into an electronic garbage can.
The CBers got it on the basis of "if you can use it for any local
communications through all the garbage, go ahead and do it".

The only reason that any communications can be conducted on that
band now is that all the shielding, bypassing, and grounding
necessary to comply with the harmonic elimination requirement also
keeps the fundamental from being radiated.

A ham for whom I was the "elmer" some 30+ years ago became the test
engineer at the Varian Tube division that manufactures the
wastebasket-sized tubes for ultra high power uses, and Ray swore
that someday he was going to design a test jig that would have all
the harmonic suppression but permit the unlimited field radiation
allowed for ISM devices on 27.12 MHz, thereby solving the "CB
problem" for about one-third of the US.

He never did.....

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane