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N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: wrote: Michael Coslo wrote: I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len, When were you mean to Len, Mike? Unless you count disagreeing with him and proving him wrong as "being mean", you've been nothing but nice to him. Well, he probably thinks so! Mike Deignan had him pegged. Len's really ticked that somewhere, out there, somebody is having fun with ham radio. *Every Day*! If I'm not operating, I'm reading or surfing the web to learn about it. And I venture in here for a little mud wrestling from time to time too! 8^) so I'll try to meet him halfway with a Morse code topic. His definition of meeting halfway is that you agree with him 100%. That is certainly possible... It's self-evident... So maybe we can ressurect this old one... I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode. It is most certainly not. Depends how you define "binary". One state equals "0" or "off". The other state equals "1" or "on". You have to define "state". If "key up" and "key down" are the states, it's binary. Time isn't the factor you make it - look at how Baudot works. Certainly. But Morse code, which was invented as a human translated code, does not qualify to me as a 1 or 0 state. Here is my rationale: If the key is up, the radio is certainly not sending 0's. This brings up an interesting paradox... If the lack of a signal is a 0 state, then when no signal is being transmitted, you are receiving zeros until someone sends something. I grant that a dit might be a 1. If a dah is 3 1's, why do we not send 3 dits. I either hold the key down longer or press the dah switch on my keyer. It sends out a longer pulse, not 3 1's. Describing the signal as how many 1's a signal is, or how many 0's indicate intercharacter or interword spacing is a method of translating the varying length Morse code signals into digital format. Let us look at the situation. Is the Dit a "0"? No. Is the Dah a "1"? No. Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait, what is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words? Key up is "0". Key down is "1". Also known as "space" and "mark", respectively. Unfortunately, there are two separate "1" states, and the zero state is not a constant thing. Doesn't have to be. It's a time code. There is the matter of time. A zero might me the space between letters, or one half of a dit. It might also mean the space between words. All different things. No. The characters are built from the basic elements, which are key up and key down, just like, say, Baudot RTTY. That Morse code can be turned into binary is not at argument here. It obviously can, just as images, emails and everything else we do on the computer. Are they binary because someone has written a program to turn them into strings of 1's and 0's? Their basic transmission form is binary, same as Morse. A non-binary code is one that has more than two *transmission* states, like QPSK. Which is typically implemented as 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees shift. Four transmission states rather than two. It isn't binary, Depends on how you define "binary". and the way our noodles process it isn't binary. Different subject. Not really. If you look at the string of 1's and 0's that Doug posted as the binary result of my hypothetical CQ, is that something that you would recognize as that CQ? That string IS binary. I would recognize it easily. Why does the - and . method of typing out the code convey the information? the dashes and the spaces convey time information to the person looking at them. I'm counting more than two states here. It's not the simplest way, though. It shows the time differently. It's not binary. Most Morse operators with any skill (that excludes Len) process a complete character as one "sound". "didahdidit" is recognized as "L", in the same way that when you hear the word "cat", you think of the animal. The Morse operator does not think in terms of dits and dahs any more than a person thinks in terms of the consonant and vowel sounds (phonemes) making up "cat". Of course *really* skilled Morse ops hear entire words as units of sound. And at some level, they begin to think in Morse, just as fluent speakers of a language think in that language. Of course Len wouldn't know about that... The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not? Of course not! I thought it might be something better to talk about than whether Len thinks we're "jackboot thugs" tho'! 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote: | Odd, the old definition of Morse Code didn't use the terms "0" and "1", | nor "mark" and "space." All the timing was in terms of the length of a | single "dit." | | As far as I know, Morse code did not "become digital" until some people | wanted to make it look as if it was more advanced than it is. Until then | it was as you describe. You're confusing your terms now. Digital and binary are related, but not the same. This defintion of `digital data' http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...87736&method=6 definately fits Morse code, both at the `on' and `off' level and at the `dit' `dah' `short space' `medium space' `long space' level. Digital also means `having to do with fingers', and Morse code is usually sent using one's fingers ... Of course, the terms digital and binary didn't really become commonly used until computers did. Considering that Morse code was born in 1832 or so, it's not surprising that people weren't thinking of it in computer terms for a while. Ultimately, terms are getting confused all over the place. The terms CW and Morse code are used interchangably, when it's really more accurate to say that CW is to Morse code as RTTY is to Baudot. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because however you define it, people use it to talk to each other and it works. -- Doug McLaren, , AD5RH This is a test of the emergency .signature program. This is only a test. |
Nothing in the Rules says that someone can't be called into an FCC office and administered an individual test if the FCC deems it necessary. An FCC field guy (that you know of) decided that a wife of a friend of mine needed to be retested on 5WPM code. At the time (early 70's) the FCC test office rarely if ever did 5WPM, and the examner had to dig up a 5WPM paper tape (with punched holes). Seems the tape was bad and the machine sent trash instead of code, but the examiner himself didn't know code and decided that she couldn't copy code and failed her. "Broken tape machine, yeah sureeee....." If the tape were played backwards (a code machine my father used used two spools, a supply reel and take up reel) it would produce some copyable characters (A for N) and others would be trash. Someone forgets to rewind a tape, and later someone else plays it for a test. Sounds like code to someone who doesn't know code. |
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:52:42 GMT, robert casey wrote:
An FCC field guy (that you know of) decided that a wife of a friend of mine needed to be retested on 5WPM code. At the time (early 70's) the FCC test office rarely if ever did 5WPM, and the examner had to dig up a 5WPM paper tape (with punched holes). Seems the tape was bad and the machine sent trash instead of code, but the examiner himself didn't know code and decided that she couldn't copy code and failed her. "Broken tape machine, yeah sureeee....." If it's who I think it is - someone who had a history of deciding what other hams "needed" - he was a traffic handler and contester who knew code very well. In that era the only FCC field folks who were not required to be Morse-qualified were the clerical staff. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane |
In article ws.com, "Phil
Kane" writes: On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:13:16 GMT, Doug McLaren wrote: But to retort -- 1) The FCC doesn't administer ham radio tests any more Nothing in the Rules says that someone can't be called into an FCC office and administered an individual test if the FCC deems it necessary. Bring 'em on! ;-) 2) The tests are generally receiving, not sending, and Generally but not always. It's up to the examiner. Yep. It is possible to pass Element 1 by *sending only*. 3) You don't need 100% accuracy to pass You've never taken a test that I administered... ggg The ultimate is to record what the applicant sent and then have the applicant copy it back.... -- Too easy.... 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Len Anderson wrote:
In article .com, writes: The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not? . . . finally . . of course not. But you already knew that . . Quite true. The coslonaut (reaching for the threashold of space through surplus helium balloons) originally posted a troll message to liven up this "members-only" chat room cum group blog. You betchya! Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary (1989) has the definition of BINARY as following: "1. Made up of two parts: double 2. designating or of a number system in which the base used is two, each number being expressed by using only two digits, specifically 1 and 0." How many states are there in Morse code? On, and Off? Is that all? - Mike KB3EIA - |
robert casey wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote: I felt kinda bad about being mean to Len, so I'll try to meet him halfway with a Morse code topic. So maybe we can ressurect this old one... I hear lots of Hams declare that Morse code is a binary mode. It is most certainly not. Let us look at the situation. Is the Dit a "0"? Is the Dah a "1"? Is the space between characters a "0"? and the Dih a "1"? Oh wait, what is the Dah then? Oh, and what about the space between words? It's a form of pulse width modulation. Now you're getting there! - Mike KB3EIA - |
N2EY wrote:
In article ws.com, "Phil Kane" writes: On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 04:13:16 GMT, Doug McLaren wrote: But to retort -- 1) The FCC doesn't administer ham radio tests any more Nothing in the Rules says that someone can't be called into an FCC office and administered an individual test if the FCC deems it necessary. Bring 'em on! ;-) 2) The tests are generally receiving, not sending, and Generally but not always. It's up to the examiner. Yep. It is possible to pass Element 1 by *sending only*. Can a person request to be tested by sending? My sending has always outpaced my receiving! - Mike KB3EIA - |
Len Anderson wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo writes: Len Anderson wrote: In article .com, writes: The big question is: what does it matter if Morse is binary or not? . . . finally . . of course not. But you already knew that . . Quite true. The coslonaut (reaching for the threashold of space through surplus helium balloons) originally posted a troll message to liven up this "members-only" chat room cum group blog. You betchya! Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary (1989) has the definition of BINARY as following: "1. Made up of two parts: double 2. designating or of a number system in which the base used is two, each number being expressed by using only two digits, specifically 1 and 0." How many states are there in Morse code? On, and Off? Is that all? Coslo, do you have a reading defect? Here's what I wrote: I can read. ========== Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary (1989) has the definition of BINARY as following: "1. Made up of two parts: double 2. designating or of a number system in which the base used is two, each number being expressed by using only two digits, specifically 1 and 0." Specifically 1 and 0, indeed. That is why when we try to make Morse code computer compatible, we interpret the dah or dash as 3 '1's" in length, (followed by a 0) the dit or dot as 1 "1" (followed by a 0, and various numbers of 0's for spaces in between letters or numbers, or words. As used in all electronics, the first definition is used with an emphasis on STATE of something, such as on or off, there or not there. Two-state. In on-off keying (OOK) CW the carrier is either present or not there. Two states. No. At least to only two states. Obviously it is either there or not there. It has a time component that is what carries the information. The "there" or "not thereness" of the signal is one thing. The relationship of one carrier pulse length to other carrier pulse length, and to the intercarrier lack of pulse time is what is important. Put the subject to rest. RIP. - Mike KB3EIA - |
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