A Study of Amateur Radio Demographics
 

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Less than .01% of all quilters are male...Is quilting about to
burn out?

Is there some great conspiracy to prevent women from testing? Are
there armed guards at the doors to bar their entrance? If so, I've
never seen them.

73

Steve, K4YZ

QUOTE:
A Study of Amateur Radio Gender Demographics

By Ken Harker, WM5R
March 15, 2005

One of the under-represented demographics in the Amateur Radio world is
women. Everyone knows that there are many fewer female hams than there
are male hams, both among those licensed and those active on the air.
As a competitor at some of the major Amateur Radio Direction Finding
(ARDF) meets, I've noticed that the womens' entry categories have
had only about a fifth as many entrants as the mens' categories. As
an HF phone contester, I've observed that a very small percentage of
my QSOs are made with women operators (as low as 2%!). So how many
women Amateur Radio operators are there?

UNQUOTE

K4YZ wrote:
The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Less than .01% of all quilters are male...Is quilting about to
burn out?

Is there some great conspiracy to prevent women from testing? Are
there armed guards at the doors to bar their entrance? If so, I've
never seen them.


It seems to be the same with many technical careers or hobbies. There
is a lot of effort to recruit women to the engineering ranks. But not
that many appear to be attracted to it.

Perhaps we need to have tight control over this sort of thing. A
carreer / hobby lottery, so to speak. When you are in 6th grade, you
draw at random two things, a career slip and a hobby slip. And that is
what ya train for and do from then on. Strict control will have to be
exercised in order to enforce gender equity!

I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty goofy to me.

That there are less women in the ARS is true enough. But that is
interesting from a "why is that?" standpoint. It probably isn't so
interesting from a "how do we change Ham radio to attract more women?"
aspect.

Dee or Kim might be able to shed some light on that, in form of "Why I
am interested in Amateur radio" or perhaps some insight on why a lot of
women aren't.

- Mike KB3EIA -


QUOTE:
A Study of Amateur Radio Gender Demographics

By Ken Harker, WM5R
March 15, 2005

One of the under-represented demographics in the Amateur Radio world is
women. Everyone knows that there are many fewer female hams than there
are male hams, both among those licensed and those active on the air.
As a competitor at some of the major Amateur Radio Direction Finding
(ARDF) meets, I've noticed that the womens' entry categories have
had only about a fifth as many entrants as the mens' categories. As
an HF phone contester, I've observed that a very small percentage of
my QSOs are made with women operators (as low as 2%!). So how many
women Amateur Radio operators are there?

UNQUOTE

K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.


But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

http://tinyurl.com/5lm92

Despite the prevalence of the quote, I'm not sure what the disparities are.



Or they can force 'em to go to "tech camp"

http://tinyurl.com/5m82m



Interestingly enough, there are High schools that place emphasis on
science and math. The enrollment in these schools is roughly equal,
gender wise. But the female students tend to gravitate to liberal arts,
medicine and law.

see
http://tinyurl.com/3umlf


Finally, I'm not sure what to think. I've discussed the issue with a
woman engineer I work with. Interestingly enough, she says she KNEW she
wanted to be an engineer from the time she was a kid. No forcing to go
to camps. She thinks the recruitment efforts are not going to work,
because one does not pick engineering like one may pick a major from a
school catalog.

Oh, and she says she hates being called a "Woman Engineer". "Engineer"
by itself will do just fine thank you!

A sample of one, of course, but perhaps a little telling.

Maybe people who are interested in engineering get tin to it for that
reason, and people who are not into engineering do other things.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.

But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

There's any easy way out of all this stuff, Mike: Fire the president of
Harvard. Lawrence Summers made some gender-specific comments on women
in math and the sciences which, while true, may cost him his job. The
PC police were all over him like African flies on a dung pile in the
wake of his statements.

I met Summers during his visit as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury to
the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki. He showed less ego than any high level
visitor I ever encountered. He was quickly known as "Call Me Larry"
Summers since anyone addressing him as Mr. Summers or Secretary Summers
was quickly told to "call me Larry".

There are differences in the way that men and women think. There are
things which mostly interest women and there are things which mostly
interest men. There are things which a lot of men and not very many
women are good at. There are things which a lot of women and not very
men are good at. If you don't like my statement, fire Larry Summers.

There aren't many women in amateur radio. There have never been many
women in amateur radio. While the numbers have been and are likely to
remain small, some of the females have been very, very good operators.
Mae Burke W3CUL a CW whiz and traffic handling demon and DXers Martha
Henson and Iris Colvin W6QL, come to mind.

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how amateur
radio is predominately "white".

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in
:

Michael Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the
first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in
the
engineering fields.

But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all
U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and
preparing for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is
solid evidence that mentoring can help address this disparity" said
Muller"

There's any easy way out of all this stuff, Mike: Fire the president
of Harvard. Lawrence Summers made some gender-specific comments on
women in math and the sciences which, while true, may cost him his job.
The PC police were all over him like African flies on a dung pile in
the wake of his statements.

I met Summers during his visit as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury to
the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki. He showed less ego than any high level
visitor I ever encountered. He was quickly known as "Call Me Larry"
Summers since anyone addressing him as Mr. Summers or Secretary Summers
was quickly told to "call me Larry".

There are differences in the way that men and women think. There are
things which mostly interest women and there are things which mostly
interest men. There are things which a lot of men and not very many
women are good at. There are things which a lot of women and not very
men are good at. If you don't like my statement, fire Larry Summers.

There aren't many women in amateur radio. There have never been many
women in amateur radio. While the numbers have been and are likely to
remain small, some of the females have been very, very good operators.
Mae Burke W3CUL a CW whiz and traffic handling demon and DXers Martha
Henson and Iris Colvin W6QL, come to mind.

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how amateur
radio is predominately "white".

Dave K8MN


I'm not Len, but it is. There are very few black hams in the US, although
they have their own organisation, called OMIK. Apparently OMIK's original
purpose was for black mobile operators to pass info about where they could
stay, eat, buy gas, etc under the 'Jim Crow' laws.

Whilst it's hard to tell someone's race on air, it also seems that in the
Washington DC area the African Americans mostly seem to be self-segregated
on the 145.110 repeater. Of course, that machine does belong to a club in
the middle of the city, and not many white people live there.

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Alun, N3KIP

Michael Coslo wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.

Yep. Scientific fields too. Whole bunch of reasons for it.

But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S.
engineers

Ya gotta question a raw stat with no background. What, exactly, do the
consider
a "U. S. engineer"?

Somebody with an engineering degree?
Somebody with an engineering license?
Somebody with "engineer" or "engineering" in the title?
Somebody who describes their job that way?

Or some other criteria?

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and
preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid
evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

http://tinyurl.com/5lm92

Despite the prevalence of the quote, I'm not sure what the
disparities are.

Goes back to long before engineering school. When there's a choice,
more boys
than girls take math and physics. The disparity isn't as bad as it used
to be,
but it's still there. That's just one reason - there are lots more.

Or they can force 'em to go to "tech camp"

http://tinyurl.com/5m82m

Do they not want to go?

Interestingly enough, there are High schools that place emphasis on
science and math. The enrollment in these schools is roughly equal,
gender wise. But the female students tend to gravitate to liberal
arts,
medicine and law.

see
http://tinyurl.com/3umlf

Is that a problem?

It seems to me that the goal is equality of opportunity, not equality
of
outcome.

Finally, I'm not sure what to think. I've discussed the issue with a

woman engineer I work with. Interestingly enough, she says she KNEW
she
wanted to be an engineer from the time she was a kid. No forcing to
go
to camps. She thinks the recruitment efforts are not going to work,
because one does not pick engineering like one may pick a major from
a
school catalog.

I know several female engineers. Their reasons for choosing it vary all
over the place. Some, like your friend, wouldn't dream of doing
anything
else. Others had it suggested to them, liked the idea, and went with
it.
Some had to overcome discrimination, others never noticed any
difference.

Oh, and she says she hates being called a "Woman Engineer".
"Engineer"
by itself will do just fine thank you!

Exactly.

A sample of one, of course, but perhaps a little telling.

Maybe people who are interested in engineering get tin to it for
that
reason, and people who are not into engineering do other things.

Some other reasons:

- Someone who goes into engineering will have an educational and
professional life surrounded by guys and all their characteristics,
good and bad. Some women have no problem with that, others would prefer
a more gender-balanced situation.

- Because technology changes so fast, temporarily dropping out of
active employment in many fields in order to raise a family will make
you unemployable in that field. How many jobs are there for computer
folks whose skills and knowledge are 5 years behind? The usual solution
for fields like health care is to work part time. But their aren't many
part-time engineering jobs.

- Like it or not, there *are* some gender-related differences. They may
be all due to cultural forces (quite likely), or all due to genetics
(extremely unlikely), or some mix, but the differences are there. And
they're not going to go away overnight.

As I said before - It seems to me that the goal is equality of
opportunity, not equality of outcome.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how
amateur
radio is predominately "white".

Dave K8MN


I'm not Len, but it is.

True enough, Alun, just check out the ham photos in
the last half-century's ham publications.

No "profiling" qualifications needed...


Whilst it's hard to tell someone's race on air, it also seems that

On "CW" noboby can tell their gender.

That maybe explains why WOMEN's tees are so "cool!" :-)


Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun. :-)

K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Less than .01% of all quilters are male...Is quilting about to
burn out?

Is there some great conspiracy to prevent women from testing? Are
there armed guards at the doors to bar their entrance? If so, I've
never seen them.


There's been women hams over the years. Find an old issue
of QST from the early 60's and there's usually a column
"YL news" or such. Usually with a small headline drawing
of a woman ham and her shack, one of the pieces of equipment
with a potted plant atop of it. Some were probably wives of
male hams, and there were probably some women who were in
ham radio without such a connection. I don't think the
percentage has varied much over the years.

There's any easy way out of all this stuff, Mike: Fire the president of
Harvard. Lawrence Summers made some gender-specific comments on women
in math and the sciences which, while true, may cost him his job. The
PC police were all over him like African flies on a dung pile in the
wake of his statements.


There may be some gender differences, but such are less
than something like 5% difference. Hardly significant.
And possibly all due to the culture and not biology, who
knows.

Other male dominated hobbies like model railroading also
have a few women, about the same percentage as ham radio.

"K4YZ" wrote in message
ups.com...
The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Less than .01% of all quilters are male...Is quilting about to
burn out?

Is there some great conspiracy to prevent women from testing? Are
there armed guards at the doors to bar their entrance? If so, I've
never seen them.

73

Steve, K4YZ

I also read the article. I think it was an interesting study but did not
see any attempt to indicate that this was an issue or that anyone was trying
to keep women out. Personally I classify it as a fun but useless bit of
trivia.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
(Just in case there's anyone new in here, I am a YL)

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

[snip]


That there are less women in the ARS is true enough. But that is
interesting from a "why is that?" standpoint. It probably isn't so
interesting from a "how do we change Ham radio to attract more women?"
aspect.

Dee or Kim might be able to shed some light on that, in form of "Why I am
interested in Amateur radio" or perhaps some insight on why a lot of women
aren't.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Well Mike, I got interested in Amateur Radio because my former husband
dragged me to a class saying "Let's do this TOGETHER." After I was
involved, I found that I enjoyed it for its own sake. So that's when I
decided to continue to study and upgrade and go all the way to Extra.
Although he and I parted a few years ago, I still am active in ham radio.

As you may or may not know, I am an engineer. However, I really can't say
why this and other technical fields don't attract more women. One of my
daughter's also went into engineering and the other one couldn't care less
for technical fields.

I'll give this some more thought though but right now must run my daughter
around.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...
K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.


But people consider it more important than it really is. There's a gender
gap in the other direction in many fields.


But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

http://tinyurl.com/5lm92

Despite the prevalence of the quote, I'm not sure what the disparities
are.


I got into engineering in 1969 and didn't find any obstacles. So I don't
know what the disparities are either.



Or they can force 'em to go to "tech camp"

http://tinyurl.com/5m82m



Interestingly enough, there are High schools that place emphasis on
science and math. The enrollment in these schools is roughly equal, gender
wise. But the female students tend to gravitate to liberal arts, medicine
and law.

see
http://tinyurl.com/3umlf


Finally, I'm not sure what to think. I've discussed the issue with a woman
engineer I work with. Interestingly enough, she says she KNEW she wanted
to be an engineer from the time she was a kid. No forcing to go to camps.
She thinks the recruitment efforts are not going to work, because one does
not pick engineering like one may pick a major from a school catalog.


I knew I wanted to do something in the math/science/technical field but
didn't home in on engineering specifically until I was a junior in high
school. I tend to agree that the recruitment efforts will have little
impact as if you don't have the inclination you won't pick the field even if
recruited. Or if you do pick it, you won't stay with it.


Oh, and she says she hates being called a "Woman Engineer". "Engineer" by
itself will do just fine thank you!

A sample of one, of course, but perhaps a little telling.


Make that a sample of two as I agree wholeheartedly with that.

Maybe people who are interested in engineering get tin to it for that
reason, and people who are not into engineering do other things.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Ditto.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Michael Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.

But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S.
engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

There's any easy way out of all this stuff, Mike: Fire the president of
Harvard. Lawrence Summers made some gender-specific comments on women
in math and the sciences which, while true, may cost him his job. The
PC police were all over him like African flies on a dung pile in the
wake of his statements.


I heard about that and personally I'm on his side but then I never was
"politically correct."

I met Summers during his visit as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury to
the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki. He showed less ego than any high level
visitor I ever encountered. He was quickly known as "Call Me Larry"
Summers since anyone addressing him as Mr. Summers or Secretary Summers
was quickly told to "call me Larry".

There are differences in the way that men and women think. There are
things which mostly interest women and there are things which mostly
interest men. There are things which a lot of men and not very many
women are good at. There are things which a lot of women and not very
men are good at. If you don't like my statement, fire Larry Summers.


I'd say it's more of an interest than ability. One can be good at something
even without ability if they care to put in the extra effort (i.e. have
enough interest to do so). Why the interests differ would be an interesting
issue.

There aren't many women in amateur radio. There have never been many
women in amateur radio. While the numbers have been and are likely to
remain small, some of the females have been very, very good operators.
Mae Burke W3CUL a CW whiz and traffic handling demon and DXers Martha
Henson and Iris Colvin W6QL, come to mind.

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how amateur
radio is predominately "white".


Please don't give him any ideas.


Dave K8MN


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote in message
ups.com...

[snip]


- Like it or not, there *are* some gender-related differences. They may
be all due to cultural forces (quite likely), or all due to genetics
(extremely unlikely), or some mix, but the differences are there. And
they're not going to go away overnight.


Actually I happen to think there are some genetic gender differences but
that they are not great. We can all do math for example but some like it
and some don't. Those who don't like it have to have other reasons for
pursuing it other than love of math itself.

As I said before - It seems to me that the goal is equality of
opportunity, not equality of outcome.


That is what is truly important. There needs to be enough freedom that
those who fall outside the typical band can pursue those interests. Don't
force women to be engineers but create an environment such that those who
are so inclined can pursue it without having to battle society. Similarly
those men who wish to be nurses or secretaries or whatever should be free to
pursue those goals without society looking askance at them. At the same
time, those who wish to follow traditional paths should also be free to do
so without extremists (such as some of the NAG and NOW members) looking down
on them.

73 de Jim, N2EY


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

K4YZ wrote:

My question: Is this even an issue?

There's beeen a lot of great ansswers here, save for Lennie's
usual attempt to be racist and chauvanistic.

What I am trying to get at, though, is "so what"...?!?!

Dee, Kim, don't get fussed at me...My only point here is that
there are NO barriers to ANYone, male, female, black, white, straight,
gay, etc etc etc getting a license.

Just like there's nothing preventing me from picking up a quilting
needle if I wanted to, or starting a floral shop, etc.

I received an off-line response that cited a lawsuit agaist the
ARRL in "the 92-94 time frame" that cited a suit brought against the
League. Sounds more like a labor dispute to me!

Does ANY organization have an "obligation" to HAVE to "recruit" on
behalf of an avocation that many consider "just a hobby"...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

Michael Coslo wrote:

It seems to be the same with many technical careers or hobbies.
There
is a lot of effort to recruit women to the engineering ranks. But not

that many appear to be attracted to it.

Ditto meteorology. The American Meteorological Society had lots of
verbiage in the BAMS and a questionaire "what should we do to
attract..."

Time frame was 80's as I recall. I had hoped we had gotten past all
that by now. We've got women doctors, truck drivers, and weight
lifters. And even a movie about women boxers. It's time to drop the
"first woman to... whatever" stuff.

Perhaps we need to have tight control over this sort of thing. A
carreer / hobby lottery, so to speak. When you are in 6th grade, you
draw at random two things, a career slip and a hobby slip. And that
is
what ya train for and do from then on. Strict control will have to be

exercised in order to enforce gender equity!

The Gulag for the dissenters.

I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty goofy to me.

That there are less women in the ARS is true enough.

And?

But that is
interesting from a "why is that?" standpoint.

It's hard to tune them in on SSB.

It probably isn't so
interesting from a "how do we change Ham radio to attract more
women?"
aspect.

Reminds me of Larry Roll/K3LT and his "Welfare mothers of color"
remarks.

Dee or Kim might be able to shed some light on that, in form of "Why
I
am interested in Amateur radio" or perhaps some insight on why a lot
of
women aren't.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Whoa! I thought we weren't allowed to take anything Kim says
seriously? And Dee will merely spout the ARRL party line.

wrote:

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun.

"I am only here to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".

From the Archived Internet Lies of:



Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

K4YZ wrote:

My question: Is this even an issue?

There's beeen a lot of great ansswers here, save for Lennie's
usual attempt to be racist and chauvanistic.

What I am trying to get at, though, is "so what"...?!?!

Dee, Kim, don't get fussed at me...My only point here is that
there are NO barriers to ANYone, male, female, black, white, straight,
gay, etc etc etc getting a license.


Well speaking for myself, I'm certainly not fussed. I agree that there's no
real barriers to any one getting a license.

Just like there's nothing preventing me from picking up a quilting
needle if I wanted to, or starting a floral shop, etc.


If you can stand other people considering you weird, more power to you as
far as I'm concerned. I'm sure no one dared tell Rosie Grier (an NFL player
for those too young to remember) that he was odd for doing needlepoint. I
believe he even appeared in ads in women's magazines for needlepoint
supplies.

I received an off-line response that cited a lawsuit agaist the
ARRL in "the 92-94 time frame" that cited a suit brought against the
League. Sounds more like a labor dispute to me!

Does ANY organization have an "obligation" to HAVE to "recruit" on
behalf of an avocation that many consider "just a hobby"...?!?!


Not as far as I'm concerned.

73

Steve, K4YZ


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...

Michael Coslo wrote:

It seems to be the same with many technical careers or hobbies.
There
is a lot of effort to recruit women to the engineering ranks. But not

that many appear to be attracted to it.

Ditto meteorology. The American Meteorological Society had lots of
verbiage in the BAMS and a questionaire "what should we do to
attract..."

Time frame was 80's as I recall. I had hoped we had gotten past all
that by now. We've got women doctors, truck drivers, and weight
lifters. And even a movie about women boxers. It's time to drop the
"first woman to... whatever" stuff.

Perhaps we need to have tight control over this sort of thing. A
carreer / hobby lottery, so to speak. When you are in 6th grade, you
draw at random two things, a career slip and a hobby slip. And that
is
what ya train for and do from then on. Strict control will have to be

exercised in order to enforce gender equity!

The Gulag for the dissenters.

I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty goofy to me.

That there are less women in the ARS is true enough.

And?

But that is
interesting from a "why is that?" standpoint.

It's hard to tune them in on SSB.

It probably isn't so
interesting from a "how do we change Ham radio to attract more
women?"
aspect.

Reminds me of Larry Roll/K3LT and his "Welfare mothers of color"
remarks.

Dee or Kim might be able to shed some light on that, in form of "Why
I
am interested in Amateur radio" or perhaps some insight on why a lot
of
women aren't.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Whoa! I thought we weren't allowed to take anything Kim says
seriously? And Dee will merely spout the ARRL party line.


I do hope you meant to add a smiley to that.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

I received an off-line response that cited a lawsuit agaist the
ARRL in "the 92-94 time frame" that cited a suit brought against the
League. Sounds more like a labor dispute to me!

Something about the ARRL not wanting to run a classified ad for
a gay ham club IIRC.

Dee Flint wrote:

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

K4YZ wrote:

Just like there's nothing preventing me from picking up a quilting
needle if I wanted to, or starting a floral shop, etc.

If you can stand other people considering you weird, more power to you as
far as I'm concerned. I'm sure no one dared tell Rosie Grier (an NFL player
for those too young to remember) that he was odd for doing needlepoint. I
believe he even appeared in ads in women's magazines for needlepoint
supplies.

Rosie even had a short singing career. I saw him live as part of a
"Shindig" tour in Beckley, WV in 1964 or 65. He performed on the same
bill as Jerry and the Pacemakers, The Dixie Cups, Shirley Ellis (The
Name Game) and a young, clean-shaven Willie Nelson (doing pop songs!).

Dave K8MN

bb wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:


It seems to be the same with many technical careers or hobbies.

There

is a lot of effort to recruit women to the engineering ranks. But not


that many appear to be attracted to it.


Ditto meteorology. The American Meteorological Society had lots of
verbiage in the BAMS and a questionaire "what should we do to
attract..."

Time frame was 80's as I recall. I had hoped we had gotten past all
that by now. We've got women doctors, truck drivers, and weight
lifters. And even a movie about women boxers. It's time to drop the
"first woman to... whatever" stuff.


Perhaps we need to have tight control over this sort of thing. A
carreer / hobby lottery, so to speak. When you are in 6th grade, you
draw at random two things, a career slip and a hobby slip. And that

is

what ya train for and do from then on. Strict control will have to be


exercised in order to enforce gender equity!


The Gulag for the dissenters.


I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty goofy to me.

That there are less women in the ARS is true enough.


And?

Right!



But that is

interesting from a "why is that?" standpoint.


It's hard to tune them in on SSB.

You are correct! perhaps *there* is the discrimination! hehe



It probably isn't so

interesting from a "how do we change Ham radio to attract more
women?" aspect.


Reminds me of Larry Roll/K3LT and his "Welfare mothers of color"
remarks.

That one was sorely troublesome.


Dee or Kim might be able to shed some light on that, in form of "Why
I am interested in Amateur radio" or perhaps some insight on why a lot
of women aren't.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Whoa! I thought we weren't allowed to take anything Kim says
seriously? And Dee will merely spout the ARRL party line.

I have no problems with either.

And I wonder what the ARRL party lin is on "wimmin in radio"?


- Mike KB3EIA -

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

K4YZ wrote:

My question: Is this even an issue?

There's beeen a lot of great ansswers here, save for Lennie's
usual attempt to be racist and chauvanistic.

What I am trying to get at, though, is "so what"...?!?!

Dee, Kim, don't get fussed at me...My only point here is that
there are NO barriers to ANYone, male, female, black, white, straight,
gay, etc etc etc getting a license.

Just like there's nothing preventing me from picking up a quilting
needle if I wanted to, or starting a floral shop, etc.

I received an off-line response that cited a lawsuit agaist the
ARRL in "the 92-94 time frame" that cited a suit brought against the
League. Sounds more like a labor dispute to me!

Does ANY organization have an "obligation" to HAVE to "recruit" on
behalf of an avocation that many consider "just a hobby"...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ



When is k4yz going to post proof k1man was sanctioned by the
commission? Me thinks k4yz is full 'o ****.

73,

Lloyd

From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am

wrote:

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how
amateur radio is predominately "white".


I'm not Len, but it is.

True enough, Alun, just check out the ham photos in
the last half-century's ham publications.

No "profiling" qualifications needed...

That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Mr. "equal opportunity" Heil with all
the sarcastic arrogance he can muster DOES NOT EXPLAIN
WHY U.S. amateur radio is essentially a white man's
"club." Oh, my, how hypocritical can you get?

Whilst it's hard to tell someone's race on air, it also seems that

On "CW" noboby can tell their gender.

That maybe explains why WOMEN's tees are so "cool!" :-)

Because when using CW, nobody can tell your gender? Makes as much
sense
as anything else you've written, I suppose.

Are you THAT brain-dead or living-in-fantasy while
listening to "CW" that you CAN tell gender of the
sender?!?

What do you do on hearing that the other party is
female, raise the beep pitch with your BFO knob?!?

Jay-suss...big badass dave is hard-put to get
anything to attempt humiliation and denigration
of his "opponents." Tsk, tsk.

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun. :-)

Yes, I do, but I'm not awfully fond of you.

AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?

Poor guy is looking for love in all the wrong
places. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

GET WITH THE PROGRAM. A discussion of anything
controversial WILL have all sorts of people "you
don't like."

Sunnuvagun! [as Hans likes to say...:-) ]

Here's a newsflash, sweetums, it is NOT necessary
to "like someone" about anything. The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy. Dave Heil has NO more control
over ham radio than I do...believe it or not!

Dave Heil is NOT an FCC commissioner or staffer,
does NOT "rule" anything but lines on paper pads.
All of Dave Heil's "tenure" in amateur radio
involves keeping his amateur license renewed.
All the rest is arrogant posturing of the type of
personality that needs to "control" everyone else.
Dave Heil tries to "control" others by attempts at
humiliation and denigration, then gets soooooooooo
upset when he gets the same (and more) tossed right
back in his face. Poor baby...and he thought he
was "in control." Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Does Dave Heil want a nice ARRL-south website where
all can congratulate him on his long "career" as an
amateur, rigidly following the league rulebook? No
problem...easy thing to do ELSEWHERE. Posture and
preen about yourself all you want (and you do so
seem to want that) ELSEWHERE. U.S. amateur radio
is NOT under YOUR control and won't be. If you want
to pretend YOU control it, go ELSEWHERE.

Meanwhile, the demographics on U.S. amateur radio
show de facto that it is a WHITE MEN'S CLUB. If Davie
wanna be "equal opportunity for all" (like he puts on
to me), then Davie Heil ought to for damn sure go out
and DO something about that. [the rest of the world
does not exist to serve Davie Heil...or any PCTA]
Posturing a lot of bull**** about "...it's open to all"
may be the SPIN that all flag-waving, arrogant WHITE
extras wanna rave about, but it's clearly NOT the
case. It hasn't been the case for half a century.

Davie Heil will NOT address the de facto WHITE MEN'S
CLUB other than to misdirect into personal denigration
against another. To me is going to come back with that
idiotic "promise" that I allegedly made...about five
years ago. Tsk, tsk. I NEVER took any "oath" or
"vows" that I would do such a thing. Got that, Davie?
NO "oaths," "vows," or promises.

Doesn't matter on the SUBJECT whether or not I "get"
a ham license. Big badass davie IS going to find some
sort of personal denigration "charge" to misdirect the
thread SUBJECT onto my person's alleged "faults." :-)
He can't help it. He just doesn't like those having
differing opinions than his.

Davie Heil has been trying to toss me off this news-
group for over seven years on all sorts of specious
"charges." Tsk. He's FAILED! I'm still here. Poor
guy must be twins (he's beside himself).

Failure is NOT an option, Davie.

TRY to get back ON the SUBJECT...WITHOUT resorting to
all the alleged "faults" of another person. I don't
think you can do it.

wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun.

Yes, I do, but I'm not awfully fond of you.

AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?

No. That's YOUR schtick, Lennie.

You got "dissed" somewhere along the way in life and now you're
doing your best to make life as miserable for any/everyone else you
can.

Poor guy is looking for love in all the wrong
places. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

As opposed to a bitter old Kalifornia Ex-Technician we know who
can't get ANY loving ANY where...And does his best to make sure no one
will WANT to love him...

GET WITH THE PROGRAM. A discussion of anything
controversial WILL have all sorts of people "you
don't like."

Sunnuvagun!

As opposed to the bitter old man who isna't a part of ANY program?

Here's a newsflash, sweetums, it is NOT necessary
to "like someone" about anything. The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

Typos, Lennie...Watch your typos...We can see you getting MAD!

(Your "rulez", Putzster...Live with it...)

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy. Dave Heil has NO more control
over ham radio than I do...believe it or not!

Yes, he does.

Meanwhile, the demographics on U.S. amateur radio
show de facto that it is a WHITE MEN'S CLUB. If Davie
wanna be "equal opportunity for all" (like he puts on
to me), then Davie Heil ought to for damn sure go out
and DO something about that. [the rest of the world
does not exist to serve Davie Heil...or any PCTA]
Posturing a lot of bull**** about "...it's open to all"
may be the SPIN that all flag-waving, arrogant WHITE
extras wanna rave about, but it's clearly NOT the
case. It hasn't been the case for half a century.

There's no raving here, Leonard.

I demand that you cite those raves.

There is no "white man's club" here. No one, except for felons and
representitives are prevented from obtaining an Amateur Radio
license...Even lying ex radio technicians in Sun Valley.

Davie Heil will NOT address the de facto WHITE MEN'S
CLUB other than to misdirect into personal denigration
against another. To me is going to come back with that
idiotic "promise" that I allegedly made...about five
years ago. Tsk, tsk. I NEVER took any "oath" or
"vows" that I would do such a thing. Got that, Davie?
NO "oaths," "vows," or promises.

All references to any statements he has made are rebutted with
"tsk", "I never said THAT", "that was in the past" or similar disavowal
of his own "word".

Then when his lies are pointed out, he tries to redirect "to the
subject" or other such misdirection, claiming that he is the victim of
"character assassination".

Doesn't matter on the SUBJECT whether or not I "get"
a ham license. Big badass davie IS going to find some
sort of personal denigration "charge" to misdirect the
thread SUBJECT onto my person's alleged "faults."

There is nothing "alleged" about it.

Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley California is a pathological
liar. He is untrustworthy. His word is only taken with one huge grain
of salt by the extremely gullible.

Davie Heil has been trying to toss me off this news-
group for over seven years on all sorts of specious
"charges." Tsk. He's FAILED! I'm still here. Poor
guy must be twins (he's beside himself).

Actually, I saw a tee shirt that kinda fits the situation, Lennie,
so you may be getting a package via UPS very soon. It says:

"I AM PROOF THAT THE THREAT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOES DETER
CAPITAL CRIME" It has a "stickman" in a hangman's noose and the
international red circle with the strike across it.

Failure is NOT an option, Davie.

TRY to get back ON the SUBJECT...WITHOUT resorting to
all the alleged "faults" of another person. I don't
think you can do it.

You ARE a liar.

You HAVE made countless inappropriate and innaccurate statements
about Amateur Radio and Amateur Radio Operators. When those errors
have been brought to your attention (or proof asked for) you've refused
to acknowledge your error.

YOU contantly denigrate almost everyone here with allegations of
Nazi sympathies, profanities and other such childish name-calling, then
cry foul when redirected back to you.

You've bottomed out, Lennie...Whatever potential you had at being
of any value to community or avocation is long gone.

Back under the rock, scumbag.

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun.

Yes, I do, but I'm not awfully fond of you.

AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?

No. That's YOUR schtick, Lennie.

You got "dissed" somewhere along the way in life and now you're
doing your best to make life as miserable for any/everyone else you
can.

Poor guy is looking for love in all the wrong
places. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

As opposed to a bitter old Kalifornia Ex-Technician we know who
can't get ANY loving ANY where...And does his best to make sure no one
will WANT to love him...

GET WITH THE PROGRAM. A discussion of anything
controversial WILL have all sorts of people "you
don't like."

Sunnuvagun!

As opposed to the bitter old man who isna't a part of ANY program?

Here's a newsflash, sweetums, it is NOT necessary
to "like someone" about anything. The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

Typos, Lennie...Watch your typos...We can see you getting MAD!

(Your "rulez", Putzster...Live with it...)

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy. Dave Heil has NO more control
over ham radio than I do...believe it or not!

Yes, he does.

Meanwhile, the demographics on U.S. amateur radio
show de facto that it is a WHITE MEN'S CLUB. If Davie
wanna be "equal opportunity for all" (like he puts on
to me), then Davie Heil ought to for damn sure go out
and DO something about that. [the rest of the world
does not exist to serve Davie Heil...or any PCTA]
Posturing a lot of bull**** about "...it's open to all"
may be the SPIN that all flag-waving, arrogant WHITE
extras wanna rave about, but it's clearly NOT the
case. It hasn't been the case for half a century.

There's no raving here, Leonard.

I demand that you cite those raves.

There is no "white man's club" here. No one, except for felons and
representitives are prevented from obtaining an Amateur Radio
license...Even lying ex radio technicians in Sun Valley.

Davie Heil will NOT address the de facto WHITE MEN'S
CLUB other than to misdirect into personal denigration
against another. To me is going to come back with that
idiotic "promise" that I allegedly made...about five
years ago. Tsk, tsk. I NEVER took any "oath" or
"vows" that I would do such a thing. Got that, Davie?
NO "oaths," "vows," or promises.

All references to any statements he has made are rebutted with
"tsk", "I never said THAT", "that was in the past" or similar disavowal
of his own "word".

Then when his lies are pointed out, he tries to redirect "to the
subject" or other such misdirection, claiming that he is the victim of
"character assassination".

Doesn't matter on the SUBJECT whether or not I "get"
a ham license. Big badass davie IS going to find some
sort of personal denigration "charge" to misdirect the
thread SUBJECT onto my person's alleged "faults."

There is nothing "alleged" about it.

Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley California is a pathological
liar. He is untrustworthy. His word is only taken with one huge grain
of salt by the extremely gullible.

Davie Heil has been trying to toss me off this news-
group for over seven years on all sorts of specious
"charges." Tsk. He's FAILED! I'm still here. Poor
guy must be twins (he's beside himself).

Actually, I saw a tee shirt that kinda fits the situation, Lennie,
so you may be getting a package via UPS very soon. It says:

"I AM PROOF THAT THE THREAT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DOES DETER
CAPITAL CRIME" It has a "stickman" in a hangman's noose and the
international red circle with the strike across it.

Failure is NOT an option, Davie.

TRY to get back ON the SUBJECT...WITHOUT resorting to
all the alleged "faults" of another person. I don't
think you can do it.

You ARE a liar.

You HAVE made countless inappropriate and innaccurate statements
about Amateur Radio and Amateur Radio Operators. When those errors
have been brought to your attention (or proof asked for) you've refused
to acknowledge your error.

YOU contantly denigrate almost everyone here with allegations of
Nazi sympathies, profanities and other such childish name-calling, then
cry foul when redirected back to you.

You've bottomed out, Lennie...Whatever potential you had at being
of any value to community or avocation is long gone.

Back under the rock, scumbag.

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ




When is scumbag k4yz going to post proof tht k1man was cited and
sanctioned by the fcc?

Lloyd wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

YOU contantly denigrate almost everyone here with allegations
of
Nazi sympathies, profanities and other such childish name-calling,
then
cry foul when redirected back to you.

You've bottomed out, Lennie...Whatever potential you had at
being
of any value to community or avocation is long gone.

Back under the rock, scumbag.

When is scumbag k4yz going to post proof tht k1man was cited and
sanctioned by the fcc?

Oooooh! Lloydie has moved up to two syllable profanities! I am
so (not) impressed!

Same lame challenge...Still wordsmiting for some "advantage"...An
advantage un-done by Google.

Done deal. A simple Google search.

I wonder if LLoydie will apologize or snivvel out.

I vote on the snivvelling.

Steve, K4YZ

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

Dave Heil tries to "control" others by attempts at
humiliation and denigration, then gets soooooooooo
upset when he gets the same (and more) tossed right
back in his face. Poor baby...and he thought he
was "in control." Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?"

--Leonard H. Anderson

"Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun. :-) "

--Leonard H. Anderson

Sorry, Len, you were saying?

There I was...laying on the beach in Bora Bora with Brittney Spears
when BAM BAM BAM...This loud sounds wakes me from my male chauvanist
near-wet dream...

And what do I find...?!?!

Dave Heil awaking me with that NAIL being hit SQUARELY on Lennie's
head...AGAIN!

It was worth the early wake-up call, Dave!

73

Steve, K4YZ

Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

K4YZ wrote:


The following is from the ARRL website...I brought over the first
paragraphs as a starting point. The remainder may be read in it's
entirety at www.arrl.org.

My question: Is this even an issue?

Kind of. There is a wide gender gap between men and women in the
engineering fields.



But people consider it more important than it really is. There's a gender
gap in the other direction in many fields.

Very true. I'm a firm believer in that a person should be able to do
what they want career, regardless of (you know the list).

But there are a number of people in this world that seem to think that
the only differences between male and female is culture driven. How much
is culture driven, and how much is fundamental difference is up for
debate. But to deny any fundamental differences would almost certainly
be wrong.


But working in the field, they account for 9 percent of all U.S. engineers

There is a quote that shows up at several sites:

"Women still face gender-specific obstacles when studying and preparing
for careers in engineering and other sciences. There is solid evidence
that mentoring can help address this disparity" said Muller"

http://tinyurl.com/5lm92

Despite the prevalence of the quote, I'm not sure what the disparities
are.



I got into engineering in 1969 and didn't find any obstacles. So I don't
know what the disparities are either.

The only obstacle is having to work with Engineers! ;^) But that
affects everyone considering the field..




Or they can force 'em to go to "tech camp"

http://tinyurl.com/5m82m



Interestingly enough, there are High schools that place emphasis on
science and math. The enrollment in these schools is roughly equal, gender
wise. But the female students tend to gravitate to liberal arts, medicine
and law.

see
http://tinyurl.com/3umlf


Finally, I'm not sure what to think. I've discussed the issue with a woman
engineer I work with. Interestingly enough, she says she KNEW she wanted
to be an engineer from the time she was a kid. No forcing to go to camps.
She thinks the recruitment efforts are not going to work, because one does
not pick engineering like one may pick a major from a school catalog.



I knew I wanted to do something in the math/science/technical field but
didn't home in on engineering specifically until I was a junior in high
school. I tend to agree that the recruitment efforts will have little
impact as if you don't have the inclination you won't pick the field even if
recruited. Or if you do pick it, you won't stay with it.


I think there was some mention in one of the places that I researched
about women who did get an engineering degree, but then got another in
another field such as medicine or legal counseling.

- Mike KB3EIA -

From: Dave Heil I_RULE_ham_radio.Org.Asm on Fri, Mar 18 2005 11:01 am


wrote:

From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am
wrote:


That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in
amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

Why no, Len, I've never asked myself what amateur radio in the U.S. is
open to anyone. Seems reasonable to me.

Tsk. The question was WHY ARE THERE SO FEW BLACKS
(african-americans) IN U.S. AMATEUR RADIO?

Stay with the program.


I've not been tasked with being the official explainer of things, Len.

Tsk. You've "tasked yourself" busy big control person.

You seek "control" of who can post in here and who
cannot. shrug

Amateur radio in the United States is pretty much a white man's hobby.

OK, agreement.

The corollary question is, "WHY IS U.S. AMATEUR RADIO SO
PREDOMINENTLY WHITE."

Let's ask a second question on demographics: WHY IS IS
PREDOMINENTLY MALE?

The majority of the membership is white.

Don't belabor the obvious. Explain WHY.


When I lived in Sierra Leone, the majority of the Sierra Leone League
of
Amateur Radio was black. The minority was white. Go figure.

DOS Tip: "Sierra Leone" is NOT a state of the United
States.

I can write the following:
When I lived in Japan, the majority of the population
was Asian.
That doesn't pertain to the question. [do you understand
the analogue or haven't you taken your Alzheimer's
medications yet?]

It was different in Botswana.

Tsk. "Botswana" isn't a state in the United States.

The question concerns the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and
the hobby activity called amateur radio.


You're starting to remind me of Brian Burke.

You have a serious problem in getting along with anyone
thinking differently than you do.

You have a serious problem in discussing anything that
is opposite to your own opinions.

Discussion of ALL SIDES of any question should be OPEN
and NOT restricted to some little clique of elitists
who self-righteously proclaim their "ownership" of some
activity.

Both Brian and I have opinions OPPOSITE to yours...yet
you feel compelled (perhaps obsessed) with a need to
attempt denigration and/or defamation of us because
we (and many others who appear from time to time) have
opinions differing from yours.

See above, little wizended Lennie.

Tsk. Attempts at name-calling. Improperly spelled.

Try to concentrate on the SUBJECT instead of
name-calling those with opposite opinions.

The USA does NOT include Sierra Leone nor does it
include Botswana. It includes Wheeling, West
Virginia, but Wheeling is just one city out of
thousands in the USA.


I didn't write that I'm upset.

Tsk. You always SEEM so upset when encountering any
opposite opinions.


I got with the program starting in 1963.

WHAT "program?"

That can't be amateur radio. U.S. amateur radio does
not allow broadcasting. [see another thread largely
of name-calling by anonymous geeks getting their jollies
off]

Tsk. "Get with the program" is a colloquial EXPRESSION,
common in American English. :-)

Tsk, tsk. In 1963 I was working (in the USA) designing
electronics for the Grumman Intruder radar pre-flight
check-out set (Ku-band, portable battery-powered). Not
a hobby and very much involved with microwave radio.

Well, this discussion has you.

"Has you" what? Try completing a sentence properly.


Nobody may force me to like you.

Not a requirement, self-righteous self-professed
ruler of ham.

Tsk. You are going to have to LIVE with the fact
that many viewing your arrogant postings in here
do NOT "like you."

You MUST live with the fact that controversial subject
discussion does NOT require capitulation to the
opinions of yours...not even when you are an extremist
in self-righteousness.

[supposedly the State Department does that all the
time...called "diplomacy," something that you've NOT
displayed in any posting in here]

The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

Please try to remember that.

I try to remember that, even when some ex-government
employees use phrases like "little wizended lennie"
as a response to me.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy.

I figured that was the case when I became interested.

Why did you lose that realization?


Unlike you, I have a stake in amateur radio.

A wooden one?

You feel you MUST control what all newcomers are
required to do to obtain an amateur radio license.
Why is that? What compells you to attempt acting
like you are "authority" on licensing?

There is only ONE authority on licensing radio
amateurs in the USA and that is the FCC. You are
NOT a member of the FCC.


Neither are you an FCC Commissioner or staffer.

Tsk. You manufacture a strawman again. I've never
claimed to control radio licensing in the USA.

Since Dave Heil is NOT a member of the FCC, he does
not have ANY authority on radio amateur licensing
matters in the USA. [Sierra Leone and Botswana are
not in the USA]

This week you've told us that you are not
interested in becoming a radio amateur.

Irrelevant. Next week I may change my mind. [next
week I may be in a foreign country...such as
Sierra Leone or Botswana... :-) ]

Becoming a LICENSED radio amateur carries with it NO
requirements of adopting a strict "life style" of
amateurism or any obeyance of some old "code" of
conduct published by a membership organization. One
does NOT need to "take vows" or "swear an oath" to
uphold some artificial traditions, jargon, patois,
standards and practices of older times. Amateur
radio is a de facto HOBBY. [it is NOT de jure a
"hobby" in regulations but that is just legislative
language cum political speak to satisfy a minority
of over-inflated traditionalist amateur lifestylers]

I am a professional in radio-electronics and have
been one since 1952. I am also a hobbyist in many
different phases of radio-electronics and have been
so involved since 1947. I have been most fortunate
to do work in many different areas of electronics and
radio and have a personal fascination with nearly all
aspects of that broad technological field.

You insist on defining "radio" as ONLY that of radio
amateurism...as YOU know it. Sorry, that isn't
acceptible to the entirety of the radio-electronics
world. Neither does anyone HAVE to "demonstrate any
interest" by becoming a LICENSED radio amateur FIRST.



How arrogant is the posturing of the type of personality which is
uninvolved in an avocation in which he plays no part as a participant
or
regulator? Talk about the need to control...

Tsk. The control-freak is angry at being called out
on how he appears to all others? That is you, Dave
Heil.

The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution states that
all U.S. citizens have the RIGHT to petition their
government for the redress of grievances. That is NOT
"posturing." It extends to EVERY law, regulation made
by the U.S. government.

The FCC regulates U.S. amateur radio. The FCC is the
final authority on what is required to obtain an amateur
radio license. The ARRL has NO such authority. Dave
Heil has NO such authority...but Dave Heil postures and
preens AS IF he did. Tsk, tsk.


You aren't a participant in amateur radio. You have no stake in it.
You currently claim that you do not desire to become a participant.
Yet
you attempt controlling of amateur radio.

Tsk, tsk. Advocacy in eliminating the morse code test
for any amateur radio license is "CONTROL?!?" :-)

Sorry, control-freak Dave Heil, that's simply a REQUEST
of a citizen, similar to tens of thousands of other
citizens who REQUEST the same thing. Not only is the
code test requirement old and out-dated, the FCC has
stated as far back as 1990 that the code test does not
matter to their purpose in determining whether any
prospective amateur should be granted a license.

NOWHERE in the various Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. is there
any "requirement" to "post bans" or submit any oath of
interest or lifetime vow in becoming "a participant"
through authorized (by the FCC) licensing. Neither is
there some strange perversion of the First Amendment
that allows ONLY "participating amateurs" to rule on
regulations!


You wish to shape it through
having regulations relating to morse code testing and the instituting
of
a minimum age requirement for licening.

INCORRECT. I've not pursued any "minimum age requirement"
in U.S. amateur radio since making that SUGGESTION to the
FCC in January, 1999, on the LAST page of a 14-page
Comment on docket 98-143 (see date of 13 January 1999 in
the FCC ECFS on that docket).

Tsk. A number of middle-aged PCTA extras keep bringing
that up and trying to imply it is something like Treason
Against The State! I've dropped that request, haven't
followed it through with REAL authorities, yet some
self-appointed "guardians of their turf" insist that I
am "constantly advocating age requirements!" :-)

Yes, I advocate an elimination of the morse code test.

Such will NOT affect ANY who are ALREADY LICENSED in
U.S. amateur radio! It does NOT affect their ability
to use what they ALREADY HAVE.


No, it isn't a CLUB at all, Leonard H. It is open to all races and
any
of the several genders.

Tsk. You FAIL to recognize the difference between
de facto from de jure.

There is NO discrimination on age or gender in the
regulations of U.S. amateur radio in Title 47 C.F.R.
[that's de jure]

There is an OBVIOUS discrimination in race throughout
the United States in regards to amateur radio
licensing...against blacks (african-americans).
[that's de facto] Observation, casual to studied,
of all amateur radio hobbyist photographs in
amateur publications of the last half century will
demonstrate that de facto condition.

There is a milder "discrimination" (of a sort) against
females in LICENSED amateur radio. That's also been
OBVIOUS but hasn't been much publicized since Harker's
informal study presented on the ARRL website.

Is it your view that it is my personal responsibility to recruit
blacks
into amateur radio whether they care to participate or not, Lennie
Anderson?

Tsk. I just asked a question. Can you EXPLAIN the
de facto condition of U.S. amateur radio being a
WHITE MAN'S CLUB?


What does your comment have to do with my being appointed by you to
recruit minorities, Lennie Anderson?

Well, DAVIE Heil, I've NEVER taken on some self-
appointed "authority" to "tell you what to do!"

[I cannot perform miracles...]

Considering your manner of "recruiting" ANYONE, you
are rather deficient in such a "recruiting" task.

Amateur radio is administered by the Federal Government.

Tsk. It is REGULATED by the federal government.


Minorities may participate. Participation isn't
mandatory.

Tsk, Tsk, TSK! DAVIE Heil has insisted and insisted
that ONLY those who "participate" in rule-making of
amateur radio MUST ALREADY have an amateur radio
license!

DAVIE Heil is acting the hypocrite.


Your de facto WHITE MEN'S CLUB isn't de fact at all.

[baaaad imitation of Amos or Andy... :-) ]

Tsk. You keep mixing up "de facto" with "de jure."

Those differences have been explained to you. Try
to keep up with your self-education.

Even you, could be a participant, little wizened Lennie.

Tsk. More of the "diplomatic charm" picked up while
"living in Sierra Leone or Botswana?" :-)


I'm sure that in retrospect, it seems idiotic to you now. I'll bet
you
wish you'd never made it.

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or,
I may not. :-)

I'll be more specific. I do NOT intend to do so
this week. :-)


Around here, a man is only as good as his word.

"Around there" is NOT the center of the universe nor
of any "center of ethical/moral virtue." :-)

Maybe it is different out there on the left coast.

Where is this "left coast?" :-)

I live in the southwestern part of the contiguous
United States of America.

In fact, the state of California is, by far, the
most populous state in the union.

If you try for more of such disparaging geographic
comments, I'd say you were so unable to reply
that you've resorted to self-appointed BIGOTRY on
a personal insult level. Tsk, tsk, tsk.


Little wizened Lennie loves to uses words like "denigration". Is it
denigration to point out that you made your well known "Extra right
out
of the box" claim? Is it denigration to point to one of your factual
errors?

Tsk. More "diplomatic charm" with the phrase "little
wizened Lennie?" :-)

"Well known claim?" :-)

No problem to me. I may say the same thing again. Or
not.

I've taken and passed MANY "tests" in my career of a
half century in radio-electronics. MOST of them were
much more difficult than ANY amateur radio "exam"
given since 1952. I've tested, operated, DESIGNED
radio equipment of equal and FAR-more-complex nature
than amateur radio equipment. No problem to me to
take a little hobby-radio test. I just don't choose
to do so this week. :-)

I'm in a computer network newsgroup. That is NOT
amateur radio activity. No license is required. Yet
DAVIE Heil (who likes to beat up on "little wizened"
people - of his imagination) thinks I MUST have an
amateur radio license to be IN this newsgroup! :-)

You're adding two and two and coming up with the wrong answer. Bill
Sohl's opinions often differ from mine. I don't dislike Bill Sohl.

Did Bill Sohl participate in this thread? :-)

I do dislike you, little old piranha.

TS. :-)

If you mean
that I've made you the object of ridicule and sarcasm, that'd be
correct.

Tsk. Incorrect. You've ATTEMPTED to do so. :-)

Sorry, it hasn't worked yet. Better luck in the future.

Your grating, pompous manner makes you an inviting target.

Awwwwww...get the great "DAVIE" all upset again? :-)


Tsk. You're still an inviting target for ridicule and sarcasm.

No problem. I expected that when I first began posting
in here. :-)

Tsk. The "good ol' boys" of the WHITE MAN'S CLUB really
DO get all upset and ornery when their precious tree
house is invaded. :-)


What was the subject again, Len?

"Demographics in U.S. amateur radio."

Can't you CONCETRATE on SUBJECTS anymore?

Was it something about my liking worms?

Ah! Now it is clear on what YOU thought was the subject!

"Davie, Davie Hi-el...king of the wild ham bands!"

It seems to be all about Dave and his "battle" with
opponents (who do not love and respect his greatness).
As self-appointed "guardian" of all that is "holy"
in ham radio (i.e., whatever Dave likes), he must do
his "combat veteran" thing and FIGHT anything that
threatens CHANGE to his radio lifestyle! :-)

Understood. :-)

wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Thurs, Mar 17 2005 4:49 am

wrote:

Now we need Len Anderson to chime in with something about how
amateur radio is predominately "white".


I'm not Len, but it is.

True enough, Alun, just check out the ham photos in
the last half-century's ham publications.

No "profiling" qualifications needed...

That's right, Len. There are far fewer blacks than whites in
amateur
radio in the United States. Amateur radio in the U.S. is open to
anyone.

You've "never" asked yourself (or anyone else) WHY that
is?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Why does he need to? Was it his obligation to do so? Is it ANY
persons obligation to do so?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Mr. "equal opportunity" Heil with all
the sarcastic arrogance he can muster DOES NOT EXPLAIN
WHY U.S. amateur radio is essentially a white man's
"club." Oh, my, how hypocritical can you get?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

What's to explain?

Why don't YOU explain, Lennie...?!?! Tell us of all those hooded
guards standing at VE sessions to keep the unwashed masses at bay.

Oh...I forgot...You've never BEEN to a VE session...My bust.

Whilst it's hard to tell someone's race on air, it also seems
that

On "CW" noboby can tell their gender.

That maybe explains why WOMEN's tees are so "cool!" :-)

Because when using CW, nobody can tell your gender? Makes as much
sense
as anything else you've written, I suppose.

Are you THAT brain-dead or living-in-fantasy while
listening to "CW" that you CAN tell gender of the
sender?!?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Lennie...YOU are the one alleging some sort of conspiracy to keep
women and minorities out of Amateur Radio.

Dave clearly and correctly cited that CW is a field leveller.

It is.

What do you do on hearing that the other party is
female, raise the beep pitch with your BFO knob?!?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

That was just lame.

Jay-suss...big badass dave is hard-put to get
anything to attempt humiliation and denigration
of his "opponents." Tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Not as "hard-put" as you were to try and make a point out of that,
Lennie.

Now you've really opened up a can of worms, Dave.

Big badass dave LIKES worms, Alun. :-)

Yes, I do, but I'm not awfully fond of you.

AWWWWWW...poor lil davie is ALL UPSET because he
isn't "loved and respected?!?" He wanna "take it
out" on others?

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Seems the one taking things out on others is you, Lennie.

Seven years worth.

Poor guy is looking for love in all the wrong
places. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

I bet he's finding it, though.

How's the "Little Lady" these days, Lennie? Keeping the Geritol
hidden from her?

GET WITH THE PROGRAM. A discussion of anything
controversial WILL have all sorts of people "you
don't like."

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Funny...with a very small exception...(You, Brain, your anonymous
alter egos), there are no really unlikeable folks here, even those with
"differing opinions".

And that "small exception" are those who have been repeatedly
caught up in lies, deceit and mistruth.

Sunnuvagun! [as Hans likes to say...:-) ]

Indeed.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Here's a newsflash, sweetums, it is NOT necessary
to "like someone" about anything. The SUBJECT is
(or should be) the discussion point...NOT the
person or personality of whover YOU disagree with.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

And people CAN be "agreeable" even when they disagree on a
subject. Happens ever day...EXCEPT with people who insist on
analogizing thier "opponents" to the Nazis, etc. etc. etc.

U.S. amateur radio was NOT created especially for
Dave Heil to enjoy. Dave Heil has NO more control
over ham radio than I do...believe it or not!

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Actually, he has a far greater control over it.

That's because Dave has a few things you DON'T...Like reputable
character, practical experience, and peer respect.

Did I mention practical experience...?!?!

Dave Heil is NOT an FCC commissioner or staffer,
does NOT "rule" anything but lines on paper pads.
All of Dave Heil's "tenure" in amateur radio
involves keeping his amateur license renewed.
All the rest is arrogant posturing of the type of
personality that needs to "control" everyone else.
Dave Heil tries to "control" others by attempts at
humiliation and denigration, then gets soooooooooo
upset when he gets the same (and more) tossed right
back in his face. Poor baby...and he thought he
was "in control." Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Someone here loses control, alright...It's not Dave.

Does Dave Heil want a nice ARRL-south website where
all can congratulate him on his long "career" as an
amateur, rigidly following the league rulebook? No
problem...easy thing to do ELSEWHERE. Posture and
preen about yourself all you want (and you do so
seem to want that) ELSEWHERE. U.S. amateur radio
is NOT under YOUR control and won't be. If you want
to pretend YOU control it, go ELSEWHERE.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Ahhhhhhh yes...More "not-so-thinly veiled" attempts by Lennie to
once again assume role of moderator/NGTC.....News Group Traffic Cop.

Meanwhile, the demographics on U.S. amateur radio
show de facto that it is a WHITE MEN'S CLUB. If Davie
wanna be "equal opportunity for all" (like he puts on
to me), then Davie Heil ought to for damn sure go out
and DO something about that. [the rest of the world
does not exist to serve Davie Heil...or any PCTA]
Posturing a lot of bull**** about "...it's open to all"
may be the SPIN that all flag-waving, arrogant WHITE
extras wanna rave about, but it's clearly NOT the
case. It hasn't been the case for half a century.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

And for the last 32 1/2 years that I have been a licensed Amateur,
(that's to say from my scope-of-experience) that there is not a single
barrier to ANY person obtaining a license should he/she choose.

Davie Heil will NOT address the de facto WHITE MEN'S
CLUB other than to misdirect into personal denigration
against another. To me is going to come back with that
idiotic "promise" that I allegedly made...about five
years ago. Tsk, tsk. I NEVER took any "oath" or
"vows" that I would do such a thing. Got that, Davie?
NO "oaths," "vows," or promises.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

No "allegedly" to it.

You said you'd do it.

You never did...Lot's of lame excuses and wordsmithing to get
around it, though...

Doesn't matter on the SUBJECT whether or not I "get"
a ham license. Big badass davie IS going to find some
sort of personal denigration "charge" to misdirect the
thread SUBJECT onto my person's alleged "faults."
He can't help it. He just doesn't like those having
differing opinions than his.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Your faults are not "alleged". They are real. You've posted them
over and over.

Davie Heil has been trying to toss me off this news-
group for over seven years on all sorts of specious
"charges." Tsk. He's FAILED! I'm still here. Poor
guy must be twins (he's beside himself).

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

Failure is NOT an option, Davie.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.

A prediction: I predict that Lennie Anderson's last year on RRAP
has arrived.

A good chance I'll be wrong...However when it comes to Lennie I've
been right far, FAR more times than I've been wrong.

Stay tuned.

TRY to get back ON the SUBJECT...WITHOUT resorting to
all the alleged "faults" of another person. I don't
think you can do it.

"My only purpose here is to debate the Morse Code TEST issue".
From the chronicled online lies of Leonard H. Anderson of Sun Valley,
CA.



I am sure the IEEE is sooooooooooooooooooooo proud of you.

Due, in no small part, to all those wonderful, inciteful papers
you wrote while you were a "regular hours engineer". (no, I did not
mispell
'inciteful')

Lennie...you have one H U G E advantage over your puppetboy
sidekick...No offspring to look you up on a search engine someday only
to find out what a deceitful, mean-spirited liar you'd been all those
years that he had been "looking up to" him...

Steve, K4YZ