KØHB wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote


Who do ya want - a impatient knob twiddler with a FTDX 9000 and an antenna
farm of (insert your favorite antenna here), or a good capable contester with
say a dipole and an IC-746.



Your example is specious, Mike. Generally the contester who builds a
competition grade station has also invested in building the skills and
techniques to take advantage of the capabilities they have sought in their
station design.

Do you think so Hans? I have examples of just that, and it has been my
personal experience. Your statement is true as far as it goes, but I've
seen what happens when the newbies have access to the competition grade
setups, as sometimes happens during events such as Field day

So many of the newbies I have worked with come in with the expectations
of sitting down, throwing the tuning knob around, and calling, then
waiting for the pileup. They get frustrated with the work that you have
to put into the more modest setups.

Many times we are told that the station "isn't working". And of course
it is. An experienced and patient operator can start making QSO's
immediately. One of the newbies decided that he wanted to use the QRO
station and referred to the GOTA as a "toy station".

Those QRO stations are powerful competition for lower powered ones. It
is not terribly difficult to twiddle the knob, start calling CQ, and
getting return calls. Problem is, it doesn't tend to make you a good
contester.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote

Who do ya want - a impatient knob twiddler with a FTDX 9000
and an antenna
farm of (insert your favorite antenna here), or a good
capable contester with
say a dipole and an IC-746.

Your example is specious, Mike. Generally the contester who builds=
a
competition grade station has also invested in building the
skills and
techniques to take advantage of the capabilities they have
sought in their station design.

Do you think so Hans? I have examples of just that, and it
has been my
personal experience. Your statement is true as far as it
goes, but I've
seen what happens when the newbies have access to the
competition grade
setups, as sometimes happens during events such as Field day

The difference is that they didn't build that station themselves.

So many of the newbies I have worked with come in with the
expectations
of sitting down, throwing the tuning knob around, and calling,
then
waiting for the pileup. They get frustrated with the work that
you have to put into the more modest setups.

I think one of the main purposes of FD is that sort of
education. Let folks try out new (to them) rigs, new antennas,
operating techniques, etc., and see what *really* works. And
let the newbies see how it's done.

Many times we are told that the station "isn't working".
And of course it is.

Cockpit trouble. Short-circuit between the headphones.

An experienced and patient operator can start making QSO's
immediately. One of the newbies decided that he wanted to use
the QRO
station and referred to the GOTA as a "toy station".

"younger and more capable minds"....

I've had similar experiences on FD. Some folks think they're
doing well to make QSOs on SSB at a certain rate with a beam and 100 W
transceiver, with an op and a logger. Exhausted after an hour or two,
they wander over to the CW tent and find me working
them at 2, 3 or more times their rate, with a dipole, "old"
transceiver, and no logger.

The reactions when presented with a manual transmatch were
priceless, too.

Those QRO stations are powerful competition for lower powered
ones. It
is not terribly difficult to twiddle the knob, start calling
CQ, and
getting return calls. Problem is, it doesn't tend to make you a good co=
ntester.

That's why it might be a good idea - next year - to run all ~100 W
setups.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote


Who do ya want - a impatient knob twiddler with a FTDX 9000
and an antenna
farm of (insert your favorite antenna here), or a good
capable contester with
say a dipole and an IC-746.

Your example is specious, Mike. Generally the contester who builds a
competition grade station has also invested in building the
skills and
techniques to take advantage of the capabilities they have
sought in their station design.

Do you think so Hans? I have examples of just that, and it
has been my
personal experience. Your statement is true as far as it
goes, but I've
seen what happens when the newbies have access to the
competition grade
setups, as sometimes happens during events such as Field day


The difference is that they didn't build that station themselves.

And that experience is *exactly* why I am convinced that the operator
is so much more important than the setup.

I'm willing to admit I am incorrect, but not unless someone can come up
with an alternate explanation that hold water.

The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent
setup, and the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that
the new or less experienced have a lot of trouble with.

Specious, or wrong, I'd love to hear the alternatives.


So many of the newbies I have worked with come in with the
expectations
of sitting down, throwing the tuning knob around, and calling,
then
waiting for the pileup. They get frustrated with the work that
you have to put into the more modest setups.


I think one of the main purposes of FD is that sort of
education. Let folks try out new (to them) rigs, new antennas,
operating techniques, etc., and see what *really* works. And
let the newbies see how it's done.

Yup. It worked for me, and I've seen it work for others. We've gottem a
couple new hams (or gotten inactive ones back) every FD I've been at.


Many times we are told that the station "isn't working".
And of course it is.


Cockpit trouble. Short-circuit between the headphones.


An experienced and patient operator can start making QSO's
immediately. One of the newbies decided that he wanted to use
the QRO
station and referred to the GOTA as a "toy station".


"younger and more capable minds"....

I've had similar experiences on FD. Some folks think they're
doing well to make QSOs on SSB at a certain rate with a beam and 100 W
transceiver, with an op and a logger. Exhausted after an hour or two,
they wander over to the CW tent and find me working
them at 2, 3 or more times their rate, with a dipole, "old"
transceiver, and no logger.

The reactions when presented with a manual transmatch were
priceless, too.


Those QRO stations are powerful competition for lower powered
ones. It
is not terribly difficult to twiddle the knob, start calling
CQ, and
getting return calls. Problem is, it doesn't tend to make you a good contester.


That's why it might be a good idea - next year - to run all ~100 W
setups.

We did last year, and I liked it. Made almost as many points too.

- mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup, and
the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new or less
experienced have a lot of trouble with.


This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers" found
at better equipped stations. My assertion is that competition-grade STATIONS
("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built and operated by
competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL, W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX,
K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

dit dit
de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup,
and the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new
or less experienced have a lot of trouble with.


This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers"
found at better equipped stations. My assertion is that competition-grade
STATIONS ("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built
and operated by competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL,
W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX, K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

dit dit
de Hans, K0HB

wow, first in the list! now you are going to make my head swell.

"Dave" wrote


wow, first in the list! now you are going to make my head swell.


If you want to stay in that position, just don't snuggle up too close to my run
QRG. BSEG

73, de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dave" wrote


wow, first in the list! now you are going to make my head swell.


If you want to stay in that position, just don't snuggle up too close to
my run QRG. BSEG

73, de Hans, K0HB



Yeah....ole Hans likes the "slip and slide" technique. If he hears anyone
getting too close for some reason his VFO tracks that way. Must be running
a Kenwood.

Just kidding Hans.

Dan/W4NTI

KØHB wrote:

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup, and
the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new or less
experienced have a lot of trouble with.



This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers" found
at better equipped stations.

It was a question, Hans. Not an implication. It isn't an either or
proposition either. I'd be purdy dum to think that those who have more
mundane setups have better ops than those at the better stations.

And I would still want to have that good op with a 100 watt station
than the not so good op at the "contest station".

Obviously the best setup is the good op at the good station.




My assertion is that competition-grade STATIONS
("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built and operated by
competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL, W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX,
K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

Of course. But this whole tangent of the thread was based on my
assertion that between the good operator and the good equipment, your
best to side with the good operator.

Kinda like buying that huge Craftsman (or Snap-On or whatever) tool set
and cabinet doesn't make you a master mechanic. However, many master
mechanics have that same tool set.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote

But this whole tangent of the thread was based on my assertion that between
the good operator and the good equipment, your best to side with the good
operator.


Presuming all else is nominally equal, that's true. But "all else" is seldom
"equal". Which is why a world-class op like K0SR with his black-hole city-lot
QTH is never invited to WRTC, passed over in favor of regional-class ops from
more propagationally favored locales.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Michael Coslo wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote

The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup=
, and
the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new or=
less
experienced have a lot of trouble with.

This assertion is different from your original question which implied t=
hat
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddler=
s" found
at better equipped stations.

It was a question, Hans. Not an implication. It isn't an either or
proposition either. I'd be purdy dum to think that those who have more
mundane setups have better ops than those at the better stations.

And I would still want to have that good op with a 100 watt station
than the not so good op at the "contest station".

Obviously the best setup is the good op at the good station.


My assertion is that competition-grade STATIONS
("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built and oper=
ated by
competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL, W0AIH, N0AT, =
K0KX,
K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

Of course. But this whole tangent of the thread was based on my
assertion that between the good operator and the good equipment, your
best to side with the good operator.

Kinda like buying that huge Craftsman (or Snap-On or whatever) tool set
and cabinet doesn't make you a master mechanic. However, many master
mechanics have that same tool set.

I look at it another way...

The basic evaluation factor in contesting is "what are the limitations"
- IOW, what limited/limits your score?

Put up the classic "100W midrange HF transceiver and G5RV at 40 feet"
station. Paper logs.

If you sit an unskilled op in front of it during a major contest, the
score will be mostly limited by the operator's skill, not the setup.
Put a skilled op in the same seat, and the score will be mostly limited
by the setup.

The key to improvements is to identify what the limiting factors
are, and how to deal with them. That's where SO2R came from in
the first place. The top ops found that their scores were being
limited by the choice between running contacts and grabbing
multipliers. SO2R permits doing both at almost the same time. For
an op capable of using such a setup well, it removes a limitation. To
an op who is not so skilled, it won't make much difference.

73 de Jim, N2EY