First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

Wow. A LECTURE!

No lecture the Mr. Len just that I can't see injecting this in to the mix
......



Tom, try to calm down and look at the big picture. Growing
dementia ("Alzheimer's") in older people and is a terrible
thing to observe up-close and personal. I'm quite familiar with
that, having watched my own mother go through that, little bit
by little bit every day, the last four years of her life in a
nursing home. I visited her every day and could see others in
the same hospital succumb slowly...and share the inner turmoil
of their family and friends watching their loved ones.

Then I am sure you would agree that we do not need to name call and use
those problems as a source of a cheap shot....


The
same with those other patients having various physical damage
from injury or illness. Three hundred beds in that one
single-floor facility, seen every day.

Am I lecturing you Leonard ????..don't think so ... I just don't like to
see peoples misfortunes utilized for cheap shots for whatever reasons ....
I really think that we on this group are ALL above that.


Go ahead, make my day, try to lecture ME on "taking all that so
very, very seriously" about handicaps and illnesses...

Again where did you pull that from Len .... did I say you took those shots
as mentioned above ???? Don't put words in my mouth there Len ..... the
post was not addressed to LA


I am still awaiting John for specifics on what you have done to foster
an
appreciation in younger people for the service.

Not a requirement of amateur radio licensing, Tom.

Quite right Len but as a "hobby" don't we have a bit....just a bit of
responsiblity to help others .....I have seen your postings on other groups
where you have done the same .....and not to be patronizing but to your
credit.


General bitching about the way things are won't cut it ...that my friend
is
too easy and is the tact of a pontificating twit.

...and you are as guilty as anything of doing the SAME
"pontificating" about Alzheimer's suffering.

Just as you brought your poor mom into the mix ???????

Nope general bitching is just that .....give me some positives .....


It's no more, no less of a pontification than all the high and
mighty amateur extras in here praising the glory and majesty
and "necessity" of morse code testing or rank-status-privilege
"due them" in a HOBBY activity involving radio.



Now Len you don't know me that well do you ..... I do not consider myself
the morse elite ......I have suggested things in the past regarding the
place the mode, excuse me protocol, could be better served not only for the
amature service but for CW itself ....


Yesterday was a day I
will always remember at our club meeting. Matt, a teen with a LD passed
his
no code. He studied his backside off for the test ....took it 3 times
before. I have more respect for that young fellow than incessant
moaners I
see on this list and in other places.


Now that's just a wonderful thing...out of the blue comes a nice
MORAL LECTURE about a younger person "overcoming all obstacles"
"despite physical handicaps" "working hard, hard, hard to pass
a test." Reads like second-rate Reader's Digest material.

No Len it reads like a person despite some real problems showing some
inititive and passing a test honestly. Your second rate Reader's Digest
comment is a cheap shot. And may I add CW had nothing to do with this test
as Matt got his No-code tech .....



I've never met that young person, Tom, just like YOU have never
met hundreds of other sufferers of various things...which I don't
mention in here because they don't apply to THE SUBJECTS AT HAND
either.


Oh no look out here comes the off topic lecture ..... The above comments
were taken from and about the discussions on this group. Please point out
to me where my comment have not been ...THE SUBJECT AT HAND .....



At stake is some federal regulations regarding amateur radio, a
HOBBY activity, a recreational pursuit done for personal
enjoyment. "Overcoming obstacles" is NOT a part of the overall
picture.

Oh yes it is Leonard ...look at the Handiham program and what is done there
...... those people aren't overcoming obstacles ???? I have worked many
people on the air who have multiple problems where this "hobby" has been a
source of enjoyment over the years.



Morality lectures to others don't help a bit...except
to cure the lecturer's mild rage at others not taking things
so damn "seriously" as the lecturer does.

No rage here Leonard ....just discussion .....and as far as taking things
seriously on this group .....the overwhelming number of Leonard posts over
the years sure bears whose rage is in this arena.




Oh, wow, "overcoming the obstacle of learning morse code!"

Where in the heck have I mentioned anythng about overcoming the obstacles of
CW in this latest round of comments????? Again trying to put words in
my mouth Len ....please don't do that ...it really is good engineering
practice ......



Terrific emotionally-loaded over-limit baggage. The real question
ought to be the TEST itself and why it "must" be passed just to
enjoy a radio hobby below 30 MHz.

Have any of my posts with in the last several years reflected the CW or die
mentality ?????




But, that isn't a thing for you
or anyone else who has already passed that TEST, is it? The real
purpose is to keep on with the myth where "hard, hard WORK" is
such a "moral necessity" and perhaps - in a screwball perverse
way - somehow closer to Godliness?

Here we go again with the church of CW ......frankly I am tired of this tact
....it belongs with CW always gets through and the old buddywhip-standard
transmission saw ....



I've known, seen, been around all sorts of folks with handicaps,
just as I've already legally and successfully operated on HF in
five other radio services other than amateur radio. Any TEST
for a LICENSE is just a regulatory tool of the federal government.

Maybe not for you and your position in the radio kingdom but for many it is
an achievement and I for one will not belittle those who worked for and
achieved a ticket honestly ...no matter what class it is ....





That license is NOT an academic achievement, is NOT soem magic
talisman that one "Must" posssess in order to operate any radio
transmitter below 30 MHz. Morsemanship isn't a "qualification"
to operate below 30 MHz...I was long-ago perfectly qualified to
operate a radio transmitter below 30 MHz without morse code smarts
and did. That morse TEST is an artificiality of old-time emotion
that has long-since passed its usefulness. The TEST itself, and
the license, is just a regulatory tool...for a radio HOBBY.

Well Len I will go along with most of that except that the govinmint says it
is a service ....na I don't want to get in to that argument .....better
things to do ....





Those who want to preach a ham radio LIFESTYLE will be outraged
at the above. TS. I got a new punch and am set for lots of
cards. I'm a bit sick and tired of these emotionally-loaded
MORALITY plays by the self-righteous unfolding in this stage.
A lot of readers are feeling the same way. Put on a bad
performance and you get bad reviews. TS. That's show biz...



I am not outraged Len ... bad reviews ....could care less ......my lifestyle
does not revolve around hamradio ..... nor does it revolve around incessant
posting about worn out arguments over the last number of years as apparently
yours has .....

Take care Leonard ....beep beep ......

From: "garigue" on Wed 22 Jun 2005 22:38


First of all John I see little humor in this discussion bringing into the
mix those poor souls with Alzheimer's syndrome ..... It is like the idiot
who posts here with references to colostomy bags ...... I sincerely hope
that either of you never have to go through that in your lives.

Wow. A LECTURE!

No lecture the Mr. Len just that I can't see injecting this in to the mix

snip

Tom, you had a LECTURE going whether you meant it or not.

That happens every once in a while when someone feels like they
have to proctor morality or preach "good works."

In truth, I posted a STRONG response...but that's because
I've seen a half century's worth of such LECTURES all about
HAVING to "help the young ones" or all about some deaf, blind,
dumb quadriplegic person "finally passing their ham test." As
if the ham test is some Holy Grail to seek, the ultimate test of
one's life?

Amateur radio is a HOBBY. De facto if not de jure. [that means
"in fact" even though it is not explicitly defined in some law
or regulation as such] NO ONE "owes anyone" for something they
do when no money has changed hands. If someone feels obligated
to another, fine, that's a personal thing to that someone. But,
that is NOT in any rules or regulations, and its "requirement"
is just inside some folks' heads...besides the Sumner editorial
pages in QST.

If you or anyone else has TRUE enthusiasm for some hobby, you
can PROJECT that to others and share the enthusiasm. If you
know more than they do, you can - if you are still enthusiastic
and want to share - help them out by increasing their knowledge.
Your enthusiasm for something will help you impart such new
knowledge to them. Even after over a half century of being
involved in radio-electronics, I'm still fascinated by it and
am still enthusiastic about learning more...but that does NOT
mean that I "MUST" "teach others" or any of that false "good
works" stuff for THEM. That's not any sort of "moral obligation"
that I "MUST" do in any hobby. Nor for anyone else with their
hobby. Hobbies are personal activities done for personal
enjoyment and recreation purposes.

As to the "service" word in Title 47, C.F.R., if you ask the FCC
they will tell you it is "a regulatory term denoting the type and
kind of radio activity being regulated." It does NOT imply some
grandiose "national service" at all. Ah, but "the FCC says so"
say many, not understanding what the FCC is saying...and then
they get all confused when I point out other services such as
the Citizens Band Radio SERVICE, the Radio Control Radio SERVICE,
the Family Radio SERVICE and so forth. It's in Title 47 in
nearly every Part.

Now, some folks seem to be tuckered out by all the lifting of
THEIR emotional baggage, at the use of "certain words" and
"certain phrases." In here lots seem to be carrying very OLD
baggage, complete with those stickers from olden times as if
they were there (even though they couldn't have) plastered all
over that "baggage." Sorry, the boat don't go there no more.
Time travel to "happier times" hasn't been invented yet. FCC
rules and regulations apply to time NOW and there's lots more
citizens of the U. S. of A. who MIGHT be interested in a radio
license and have much more modern "baggage" without all those
old-time travel stickers on it. Old-timers do NOT "own" the
hobby despite what they think and shout and demand.

Some folks get a big kick out of being "re-enactors" of every-
thing from midieval life to the American Civil War. Fine. If
that's what makes them happy, I say "have fun" and go for it.
But, trying to ENFORCE such "re-enactment" by keeping hard and
fast rules in LAW to freeze an activity in old, outmoded
standards and practices goes beyond the reasonable. LAW applies
to ALL, not just a bunch of old-timers trying to re-enact a
time when most of them did not exist. The future cannot be
eliminated by mere legislation holding it static.

Tom, you had a LECTURE going whether you meant it or not.

That happens every once in a while when someone feels like they
have to proctor morality or preach "good works."

No not preaching good works Len ...just in some small way trying to make
some people think about what they say and using cheap shots with unfortunate
situations. A number of years ago I called a radio station and complained
about the jocks using a lady and her breast cancer as a "joke". The fellow
I talked to brushed me off as if it was an OK thing to do ...... sort of
reflective of our society... unfortunately.


In truth, I posted a STRONG response..

No problem Len ...

..but that's because
I've seen a half century's worth of such LECTURES all about
HAVING to "help the young ones" or all about some deaf, blind,
dumb quadriplegic person "finally passing their ham test."

No Len just an example of courage ..... and my comment was in response to
moaning vs something positive ...

As
if the ham test is some Holy Grail to seek, the ultimate test of
one's life?

If only my salvation were dependent on that Len ..... lets see the big radio
club in the sky .... I'd have to think about that before I would step
through the gaits ....sort of like the 72 virgins or so that are promised
....could anyone go through eternity with 72 women on their case .... sounds
like the other place ...



Amateur radio is a HOBBY. De facto if not de jure. [that means
"in fact" even though it is not explicitly defined in some law
or regulation as such]

Some say yes and some no ...to be honest Len I let that quit bothering me
years ago ...it is what it is ... and besides thanks for the translation as
I haven't been in a Latin text since 70 or so ....


NO ONE "owes anyone" for something they
do when no money has changed hands. If someone feels obligated
to another, fine, that's a personal thing to that someone. But,
that is NOT in any rules or regulations, and its "requirement"
is just inside some folks' heads...besides the Sumner editorial
pages in QST.

I see the personal things to someone all the time ...that makes this veil of
tears a little more bearable for all ...





If you or anyone else has TRUE enthusiasm for some hobby, you
can PROJECT that to others and share the enthusiasm. If you
know more than they do, you can - if you are still enthusiastic
and want to share - help them out by increasing their knowledge.
Your enthusiasm for something will help you impart such new
knowledge to them. Even after over a half century of being
involved in radio-electronics, I'm still fascinated by it and
am still enthusiastic about learning more...

Good point Len ....

but that does NOT
mean that I "MUST" "teach others" or any of that false "good
works" stuff for THEM.

I'll let that up to someone else to determine if it is false or not ....


That's not any sort of "moral obligation"
that I "MUST" do in any hobby. Nor for anyone else with their
hobby. Hobbies are personal activities done for personal
enjoyment and recreation purposes.

I think Len, in all fairness, that this is a point that you are missing by
not being directly involved with this "hobby". The very essence when all is
stripped away is that you need someone to communicate with lest we would all
be shortwave listeners .... ergo help the other fellow or at best don't
interfere with his enjoyment.





As to the "service" word in Title 47, C.F.R., if you ask the FCC
they will tell you it is "a regulatory term denoting the type and
kind of radio activity being regulated." It does NOT imply some
grandiose "national service" at all. Ah, but "the FCC says so"
say many, not understanding what the FCC is saying...and then
they get all confused when I point out other services such as
the Citizens Band Radio SERVICE, the Radio Control Radio SERVICE,
the Family Radio SERVICE and so forth. It's in Title 47 in
nearly every Part.

Again no problem with description as mentioned before ...


Now, some folks seem to be tuckered out by all the lifting of
THEIR emotional baggage, at the use of "certain words" and
"certain phrases." In here lots seem to be carrying very OLD
baggage, complete with those stickers from olden times as if
they were there (even though they couldn't have) plastered all
over that "baggage." Sorry, the boat don't go there no more.
Time travel to "happier times" hasn't been invented yet.

Twern't no such place ever ....

FCC
rules and regulations apply to time NOW and there's lots more
citizens of the U. S. of A. who MIGHT be interested in a radio
license and have much more modern "baggage" without all those
old-time travel stickers on it.

I would have to agree especially with the MIGHT part ....

Old-timers do NOT "own" the
hobby despite what they think and shout and demand.

Na Len ....not an owner just a renter on the spectrum of life ....

Some folks get a big kick out of being "re-enactors" of every-
thing from midieval life to the American Civil War. Fine. If
that's what makes them happy, I say "have fun" and go for it.
But, trying to ENFORCE such "re-enactment" by keeping hard and
fast rules in LAW to freeze an activity in old, outmoded
standards and practices goes beyond the reasonable.

Resonable ...I guess that is dependent on whose ox is being tested for what
..... for now it is regs that exist ....as I have said before I will not rent
my clothes and pour ash on my head when 5 WPM goes .... there are a lot
better things to do ...


LAW applies
to ALL, not just a bunch of old-timers trying to re-enact a
time when most of them did not exist. The future cannot be
eliminated by mere legislation holding it static.



Take care Len .... Tom KI3R

In the world of toil and sin .....
your head grows bare but not your chin ...

Burma Shave

garigue wrote:

In the world of toil and sin .....
your head grows bare but not your chin ...

Burma Shave

Ben met Anna
Made a hit
Neglected beard
Ben-Anna split


He used a match
To check gas tank
That's why they call him,
Skinless Frank


Said Juliet
To Romeo
If you won't shave
Go homeo..


Speed was high
Curve was sharp
White robe, halo
Wings and harp


Trains don't wander
All over the map
'Cause no one sits
On the engineer's lap


He had the ring
He had the flat
She felt his chin
And that was that


Stop at crossings
If you'd be spared
Trains don't whistle
Because they're scared


73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
oups.com...


garigue wrote:

In the world of toil and sin .....
your head grows bare but not your chin ...

Burma Shave

Ben met Anna
Made a hit
Neglected beard
Ben-Anna split


He used a match
To check gas tank
That's why they call him,
Skinless Frank


Said Juliet
To Romeo
If you won't shave
Go homeo..


Speed was high
Curve was sharp
White robe, halo
Wings and harp


Trains don't wander
All over the map
'Cause no one sits
On the engineer's lap


He had the ring
He had the flat
She felt his chin
And that was that


Stop at crossings
If you'd be spared
Trains don't whistle
Because they're scared


73 de Jim, N2EY


I knew it ...I knew it ....that would bring some out of the wood work
...... Good ones Jim ...now Len can add this to his off topic list .....
They bring back a lot of good memories from the back seat of my dad's 50
Merc .... as a kid that is .....

73 Jim Tom Popovic KI3R Belle Vernon Pa