wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

And chlorine.


Hydrogen is seen as some sort of saving angel in the energy issue.
Producing the hydrogen is a bit of a problem though. It takes a lot of
energy to produce it. It has a pretty low volumetric energy density.


Which means it is compressed and your fuel tank becomes a highpressure
canister. Not only is the stuff flammable, like gasoline, but it's
under high
pressure.

Two ways to go boom.


But to the problem at hand, a somewhat practical method of producing H2
would be to electrolyze it, using Nuc power. The electrolysis plant
would probably be set up near the ocean (let's not even talk of fresh
water production - just ask the folks on the left coast about fresh water)

So now we have an extraction plant that is powered by an unpopular
power source, and has one big nasty polluting byproduct.

Or we can use the other methods of generating H2. Of course, they cause
as much pollution producing the fuel as if we just used the fuel in the
first place.


Maybe. There are all sorts of possible technologies to extract,
transport and store hydrogen. For example, there's work being done to
store the gas in metal hydrides. It could be extracted by using
electricity made photovoltaically. Etc.

The infrastructure would be interesting. The best looking way for
hydride storage that I've heard of so far, is the replacement tank
method. Interesting, and I suspect that teh real quick stop for fuel
would become a thing of the past.


The big question is whether such processes can be made economically
competitive. How much will a hydrogen car cost? How much will they cost
to drive per mile? What are the maintenance costs?

Maintenance would *probably* be improved. I suspect that engines would
last longer, and be a lot cleaner to be around.

The big problem is that there's probably no single magic long-term
solution. Rather there are a bunch of small solutions that add up.

Here's two favorites of mine:

Imagine a tall (couple of hundred feet) hollow tower, in the desert. A
vertical pipe, as it were, with holes around the bottom.

Around its base is a large circular greenhouse whose roof slants toward
the tower.

When the sun is out, the air under the greenhouse roof is heated, and
rises. This creates an artificial wind towards the tower. The warmed
air goes up the tower, which contains a wind-driven generator. Works
whether or not there is a breeze. The generator and its impeller are
near ground level. Etc.

Good process, and an old one. A lot of places in the middle east use
those type of towers (usually lower) to bring cooling air into the house.


also

There's a process called TDP (Thermal Depolymerization Process) that
can supposedly break down various types of waste into fuel oil, gas and
other usable products. For example, there's a pilot plant here in
Philadelphia that takes sewage sludge (ugh) and breaks it down into a
type of fuel oil, methane gas, water, and some other things that are
usable as fertilizer. The result is also
sterilized.


If nothing else, it gets rid of the stuff!

Another plant in Carthage, MO, takes the waste from a turkey-processing
plant and extracts oil, gas and some other products from it.

The company claims that many other feedstocks can be used. Old tires, a
chronic disposal problem, can allegedly be broken down into oil, gas,
steel, fiberglass and carbon black.

The process supposedly uses 15% of the product to run itself.

hmm, not too bad...

Of course the above pilot plants produce fuel at the rate of a few
hundred barrels a day.

It's doubtful that either of the above will solve all our energy
problems. It's also unclear as to whether they are economically
feasible on a large scale.

But if they are doable, they can sure help. In the case of TDP, a big
part of the waste-disposal problem can be dealt with.


- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:


But, even hybrid vehicles are mostly a scam at this point, you are wearing
out two different systems, maintaining them, with all the related use of
energy to do so. And, this ignores the the manufacturing expenditure of
energy which occurs in making the extra electrical components for the
vehicle.

And now in the case of a crash of a hybrid, the rescue workers not only
have to worry about gasoline fire, but the possibably of being electrocuted.

.... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:
... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal
from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are
a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about
the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if
memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as
an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the
trend line is up

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

AOF:

Really? Well the "evolution line" they got going in the schools (to
generate a basis for removing our "inalienable rights granted by our
creator") states this as proof we evolved from the sea--now you are here
to take on that argument huh? Well, BULLY! for you! Time someone did...

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:
... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal
from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are
a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about
the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if
memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as
an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the
trend line is up

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

AOF:

Never mind, someone got a head start on you:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...9/i2/blood.asp

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:
... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal
from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are
a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about
the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if
memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as
an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the
trend line is up

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

AOF:

Hmmm, challenges to "false knowledge" from yesterday and new knowledge
sometimes come from unexpected sources, I stand corrected... you will
have me paying a bit more attention to your words and much less to your
spelling and imperfect grammar from this point forth!

Thank you, I had honestly picked that "knowledge" up and had helped
perpetrate that myth for years! I am guilty of the crime! I will now
spend the rest of my life fighting that falsehood in an attempt to repent...

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:
... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal
from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are
a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about
the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if
memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as
an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the
trend line is up

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:
AOF:

Really? Well the "evolution line" they got going in the schools (to
generate a basis for removing our "inalienable rights granted by our
creator") states this as proof we evolved from the sea--now you are here
to take on that argument huh? Well, BULLY! for you! Time someone did...

Yea always been more evolved than some hanging arround here.

but then I never realy saw the conflict between eveolution and even the
Bible, In the bible they just step WAAAYYYY back and gives a big
picture,

Faith is faith, sicence is science

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:30:04 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:
... on a side note, our blood (human blood, if everyone here is human!)
contains roughly the same proportion of salt per given volume as sea water ...

John I think you are blowing this one, not a biologist but as I recal
from dim memeroies of a class I was bored to nearly to tears by we are
a salty (baring over eating on salt) as the oceans were somewhere about
the Cambrian (gelolgical people think in such timelines about 650M if
memeroy serves) and the ocean is slwoly getting slatier over time (as
an average gets saltier in age ages and less salt in between but the
trend line is up

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:50:03 -0700, John Smith wrote:

Michael:

Chlorine and sodium a BIG problem? The temperatures involved in
separating the base elements, sodium and chlorine, from sea water are not
found during the extraction of hydrogen and oxygen. Indeed, you would
have to take the salt byproduct (sodium chloride) and melt it using
carbon-graphite electrodes and ending up with chlorine gas and the sodium
metal.

What, now we must suffer your pseudo-science in chemistry? Having you
generate further false "facts?" And, forcing me into the part of a
"troll" as I attempt to correct falsehoods being perpetrated on those
challenged in the knowledge of chemistry?

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:07:38 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?


Mostly salt.

Hey Jim, I forgot to mention Sodium hydroxide as well as Chlorine. While
we often purposefully generate Cl via hydrolysis, the amounts that would
be generated by hydrogen fuel production on a national scale would be
an immense problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -