Nomen Nescio wrote:


Hydrogen fuel cells, bountiful, renewable resource.

So what non-poluting source are you going to generate all this hydrogen
from?

commander:

Why two-thirds of the oceans are composed of hydrogen, and the oceans
themselves cover two-thirds of the planets surface... course it takes more
energy to get the hydrogen out of the sea water than you get back when you
burn/use the hydrogen--but, if we can develop a new generation energy
source so we have cheap and abundant energy to extract the hydrogen from
sea water!!! However, at that time watch, some A$$HOLES will step forward
and ask the question, "Why not just use the cheap and abundant source of
newly developed energy directly, and not be wasteful in converting sea
water to hydrogen and oxygen--there are always trouble makers yanno...

John

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:29:18 -0700, Cmdr Buzz corey wrote:

Nomen Nescio wrote:


Hydrogen fuel cells, bountiful, renewable resource.

So what non-poluting source are you going to generate all this hydrogen
from?

John Smith wrote:
commander:

Why two-thirds of the oceans are composed of hydrogen, and the oceans
themselves cover two-thirds of the planets surface... course it takes more
energy to get the hydrogen out of the sea water than you get back when you
burn/use hydrogen--but, if we can develop a new generation energy
source so we have cheap and abundant energy to extract the hydrogen from

What are the byproducts?

- Mike -

Mike:

Last time I took a chemistry class, when you burn hydrogen in the presence
of oxygen you get water, and that is all...

John

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:52:28 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:
commander:

Why two-thirds of the oceans are composed of hydrogen, and the oceans
themselves cover two-thirds of the planets surface... course it takes more
energy to get the hydrogen out of the sea water than you get back when you
burn/use hydrogen--but, if we can develop a new generation energy
source so we have cheap and abundant energy to extract the hydrogen from

What are the byproducts?

- Mike -

John Smith wrote:
Mike:

Last time I took a chemistry class, when you burn hydrogen in the presence
of oxygen you get water, and that is all...

And if we should ever get hydrogen powered cars, watch the tree huggers
complain about all the water on the streets.

Cmdr Buzz corey wrote:

John Smith wrote:

Mike:

Last time I took a chemistry class, when you burn hydrogen in the
presence
of oxygen you get water, and that is all...


And if we should ever get hydrogen powered cars, watch the tree huggers
complain about all the water on the streets.

And I wan't talking about the byproducts of burning Hydrogen. I was
talking about the byproducts of producing hydrogen. Specifically making
H2 from seawater.....


You don't need to be a treehugger to have a problem with that one.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:
Mike:

Last time I took a chemistry class, when you burn hydrogen in the presence
of oxygen you get water, and that is all...

John


What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?

Hydrogen is seen as some sort of saving angel in the energy issue.
Producing the hydrogen is a bit of a problem though. It takes a lot of
energy to produce it. It has a pretty low volumetric energy density.

Interestingly enough, a gallon of gasoline contains more hydrogen than
a gallon of liquid H2 - it's a great way to store hydrogen.

But to the problem at hand, a somewhat practical method of producing H2
would be to electrolyze it, using Nuc power. The electrolysis plant
would probably be set up near the ocean (let's not even talk of fresh
water production - just ask the folks on the left coast about fresh water)

So now we have an extraction plant that is powered by an unpopular
power source, and has one big nasty polluting byproduct.

Or we can use the other methods of generating H2. Of course, they cause
as much pollution producing the fuel as if we just used the fuel in the
first place.


On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:52:28 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


John Smith wrote:

commander:

Why two-thirds of the oceans are composed of hydrogen, and the oceans
themselves cover two-thirds of the planets surface... course it takes more
energy to get the hydrogen out of the sea water than you get back when you
burn/use hydrogen--but, if we can develop a new generation energy
source so we have cheap and abundant energy to extract the hydrogen from

What are the byproducts?


- mike KB3EIA -

Michael:

I figured out the problem, you don't have a news reader which threads
posts, or you are NOT using it correctly.

Don't pose my EXACT same arguments back to me, YOU LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT WHEN
YOU DO!

Else, you haste for character assassination has drive you over the edge.
Get a clue man--you are on the verge of looking like some insane,
blathering nut case!

Give us a break!

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:25:30 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Mike:

Last time I took a chemistry class, when you burn hydrogen in the presence
of oxygen you get water, and that is all...

John


What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?

Hydrogen is seen as some sort of saving angel in the energy issue.
Producing the hydrogen is a bit of a problem though. It takes a lot of
energy to produce it. It has a pretty low volumetric energy density.

Interestingly enough, a gallon of gasoline contains more hydrogen than
a gallon of liquid H2 - it's a great way to store hydrogen.

But to the problem at hand, a somewhat practical method of producing H2
would be to electrolyze it, using Nuc power. The electrolysis plant
would probably be set up near the ocean (let's not even talk of fresh
water production - just ask the folks on the left coast about fresh water)

So now we have an extraction plant that is powered by an unpopular
power source, and has one big nasty polluting byproduct.

Or we can use the other methods of generating H2. Of course, they cause
as much pollution producing the fuel as if we just used the fuel in the
first place.


On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:52:28 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


John Smith wrote:

commander:

Why two-thirds of the oceans are composed of hydrogen, and the oceans
themselves cover two-thirds of the planets surface... course it takes more
energy to get the hydrogen out of the sea water than you get back when you
burn/use hydrogen--but, if we can develop a new generation energy
source so we have cheap and abundant energy to extract the hydrogen from

What are the byproducts?


- mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:

What are the byproducts of converting seawater to hydrogen and oxygen?

Mostly salt.

Hydrogen is seen as some sort of saving angel in the energy issue.
Producing the hydrogen is a bit of a problem though. It takes a lot of
energy to produce it. It has a pretty low volumetric energy density.

Which means it is compressed and your fuel tank becomes a highpressure
canister. Not only is the stuff flammable, like gasoline, but it's
under high
pressure.

Two ways to go boom.

But to the problem at hand, a somewhat practical method of producing H2
would be to electrolyze it, using Nuc power. The electrolysis plant
would probably be set up near the ocean (let's not even talk of fresh
water production - just ask the folks on the left coast about fresh water)

So now we have an extraction plant that is powered by an unpopular
power source, and has one big nasty polluting byproduct.

Or we can use the other methods of generating H2. Of course, they cause
as much pollution producing the fuel as if we just used the fuel in the
first place.

Maybe. There are all sorts of possible technologies to extract,
transport and store hydrogen. For example, there's work being done to
store the gas in metal hydrides. It could be extracted by using
electricity made photovoltaically. Etc.

The big question is whether such processes can be made economically
competitive. How much will a hydrogen car cost? How much will they cost
to drive per mile? What are the maintenance costs?

The big problem is that there's probably no single magic long-term
solution. Rather there are a bunch of small solutions that add up.

Here's two favorites of mine:

Imagine a tall (couple of hundred feet) hollow tower, in the desert. A
vertical pipe, as it were, with holes around the bottom.

Around its base is a large circular greenhouse whose roof slants toward
the tower.

When the sun is out, the air under the greenhouse roof is heated, and
rises. This creates an artificial wind towards the tower. The warmed
air goes up the tower, which contains a wind-driven generator. Works
whether or not there is a breeze. The generator and its impeller are
near ground level. Etc.

also

There's a process called TDP (Thermal Depolymerization Process) that
can supposedly break down various types of waste into fuel oil, gas and
other usable products. For example, there's a pilot plant here in
Philadelphia that takes sewage sludge (ugh) and breaks it down into a
type of fuel oil, methane gas, water, and some other things that are
usable as fertilizer. The result is also
sterilized.

Another plant in Carthage, MO, takes the waste from a turkey-processing
plant and extracts oil, gas and some other products from it.

The company claims that many other feedstocks can be used. Old tires, a
chronic disposal problem, can allegedly be broken down into oil, gas,
steel, fiberglass and carbon black.

The process supposedly uses 15% of the product to run itself.

Of course the above pilot plants produce fuel at the rate of a few
hundred barrels a day.

It's doubtful that either of the above will solve all our energy
problems. It's also unclear as to whether they are economically
feasible on a large scale.

But if they are doable, they can sure help. In the case of TDP, a big
part of
the waste-disposal problem can be dealt with.

73 de Jim, N2EY