John Smith wrote:
Dave:

"Jims' points" are mostly a ploy to inject points which are not even at
issue.

Yeah, that sneaky Jim--always working a ploy.

On BPL? Well there are a lot of test blocks where that is being
technically tested, evaluated and data is being recorded. I don't think
one needs futurist papers, Sylvia Browne, or some hams opinion--technical
data will make it a reality or not... that final data is not available
yet... I don't think a bunch of aging hams are going to block a
multi-billion dollar a year industry, if it is technically feasibly, I
know some of them think so, but rational men viewing them only grin behind
their backs--but, as long as they only pay attention to their "net
buddy's" they will not have to suffer the embarrassment of coping with
reality...

A bunch of aging hams who are federally licensed trumps Part 15 users
each and every time. Some of those supposed rational, grinning men have
had to yank their BPL systems down because of interference.

Or, perhaps there is something of deep meaning and paramount importance
which I am failing to see here?

"Since you purport to have a ee degree, you might explain how some
signals held below 300 KHz could possibly serve a number of users (say
in a neighborhood) at 3 megabaud (or higher) rates?"

There you go.

Dave K8MN

Jim:

300,000 with a 10:1 data compaction is already at 3,000,000... due to the
fact we KNOW NOTHING of the data compaction methods they are using (most
likely trade secrets) we can't even guess what they are capable of... I'd
venture 10megs or more...

You guys seem to think in terms of brass keys...

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:29:32 +0000, Dave Heil wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Dave:

"Jims' points" are mostly a ploy to inject points which are not even at
issue.

Yeah, that sneaky Jim--always working a ploy.

On BPL? Well there are a lot of test blocks where that is being
technically tested, evaluated and data is being recorded. I don't think
one needs futurist papers, Sylvia Browne, or some hams opinion--technical
data will make it a reality or not... that final data is not available
yet... I don't think a bunch of aging hams are going to block a
multi-billion dollar a year industry, if it is technically feasibly, I
know some of them think so, but rational men viewing them only grin behind
their backs--but, as long as they only pay attention to their "net
buddy's" they will not have to suffer the embarrassment of coping with
reality...

A bunch of aging hams who are federally licensed trumps Part 15 users
each and every time. Some of those supposed rational, grinning men have
had to yank their BPL systems down because of interference.

Or, perhaps there is something of deep meaning and paramount importance
which I am failing to see here?

"Since you purport to have a ee degree, you might explain how some
signals held below 300 KHz could possibly serve a number of users (say
in a neighborhood) at 3 megabaud (or higher) rates?"

There you go.

Dave K8MN

"John Smith" wrote

300,000 with a 10:1 data compaction is already at 3,000,000... due to the
fact we KNOW NOTHING of the data compaction methods they are using (most
likely trade secrets) we can't even guess what they are capable of... I'd
venture 10megs or more...

You guys seem to think in terms of brass keys...

You think way too small, John (if you've even thought about this at all).

A single subscriber just might (doubtful, but maybe) be able to be served via an
under-300KHz pipe at xDSL-like speed (which is decidedly slow by comparison to
other "broadband" delivery options available).

But we're talking about scores of subscribers (maybe hundreds in a high density
housing area) sharing that power-line "trunk". Every BPL scheme that I've heard
about extends from around 2MHz up into the low VHF range at 60MHz or higher.

Take the time to examine the technology before you embarass yourself more.

Beep beep
de Hans, K0HB

https://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?EXPAND=Y&NODE=OND27297

K0HB:

I just love you guys, now you have me claiming that I know how it is going
to all work and am a "hardware authority."

Only homebrew here is linears, antennas, swr meters, and various other
"little projects" (and yes, I know, my SWR meter actually measures the
proper loading of the transmitter and NOT real SWR--but hey, I think they
keep my finals running a LOT cooler--kewler too.) Line radiation, take
off angle (because of mismatch), and increased losses don't give me
nightmares anymore.

NOPE not me, I am a software engineer (I like the title "White Hacker"
better, coder has a "ring" to it too.)

Read my past posts, I say the hardware/software guys working on BPL have
some ideas to check out, they are doing that now. If it is feasible it
will come to use, if not, it too will go the way of the dodo bird. I am
saying any number of "authority hobbyists" which don't know a fifo, lilo,
circular queue, linked list, doubly-linked list or binary tree from a
banana tree don't count. And, most likely, don't even have the beginning
of knowledge to make a statement on its' feasibility.

On RFI, they are collecting data, re-thinking, re-engineering and
re-working algorithms--after "real world data" I would imagine testing
will move indoors and be done in software--mostly... I will take a look at
the data--when it has been explored throughly (well, I might not, not that
interested really--if there is noise I will know it.)

But, your argument seems to me that you are more qualified and
knowledgeable and should be telling them not to even bother, go tell them,
see what they say... I am telling you, I know better than to do that!

You feel somehow a group of idiots got in charge of BPL and no one is
noticing, I think you are wrong. If my past experience is any indication,
they are the very best designers, R&D people, engineers, mathematicians,
etc. which have the confidence of the industry, that it should at least be
investigated.

But, what do I know? Maybe they got three mexican laborers--one with a
wire, one with a calculator and one with an old TV they are going to use
for parts. Hey, ya never know!

Too bad they didn't consult with arrl and you--would have prevented them
from looking like the fools you claim and expending uncounted bucks!
Yanno, someone save them that kind of money, they might consider making
you their CEO! Maybe it isn't too late!

I am saying, data compression will be the real key in the end, no
matter what the medium of transmission... and I do know that! It will be
the guy which knows the difference between a binary tree and a banana
tree...

John

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:53:13 +0000, KØHB wrote:


"John Smith" wrote

300,000 with a 10:1 data compaction is already at 3,000,000... due to the
fact we KNOW NOTHING of the data compaction methods they are using (most
likely trade secrets) we can't even guess what they are capable of... I'd
venture 10megs or more...

You guys seem to think in terms of brass keys...

You think way too small, John (if you've even thought about this at all).

A single subscriber just might (doubtful, but maybe) be able to be served via an
under-300KHz pipe at xDSL-like speed (which is decidedly slow by comparison to
other "broadband" delivery options available).

But we're talking about scores of subscribers (maybe hundreds in a high density
housing area) sharing that power-line "trunk". Every BPL scheme that I've heard
about extends from around 2MHz up into the low VHF range at 60MHz or higher.

Take the time to examine the technology before you embarass yourself more.

Beep beep
de Hans, K0HB

https://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?EXPAND=Y&NODE=OND27297

"John Smith" wrote


Read my past posts, I say the hardware/software guys working on BPL have
some ideas to check out, they are doing that now. If it is feasible it
will come to use, if not, it too will go the way of the dodo bird. I am
saying any number of "authority hobbyists" which don't know a fifo, lilo,
circular queue, linked list, doubly-linked list or binary tree from a
banana tree don't count. And, most likely, don't even have the beginning
of knowledge to make a statement on its' feasibility.


Wasn't arguing it's feasibility --- it's proven to work.

I was challenging your expressed notion that the frequency of operation could
likely be held under 300KHz.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Product Development Manager http://www.adc.com

K0HB:

I see BPL as spokes on a wheel, no matter what degree they are measured
in the circle, they all return to the central hub, the internet. How many
users a "spoke" can accommodate, that is what we are finding out and the
evil doers attempting to halt. You are just attempting to play the end
game, there are many moves in between.
We can't even argue that point before the real data is ALL in...

If those who jumped the bandwagon, over-reacted, already attempted to try
BPL as if it where on trial, and ended up looking self-serving are
correct, well, won't they crow as roosters that "WE WERE RIGHT!"

But, if they are wrong, a way is found, let us see if they can behave as
gentlemen and accept the criticism...

Frankly, I think you are all wet on what to get worried and upset about...
I am much more concerned how such a system could be used to spy on the
citizens of this country--and I am voicing that in other forums... a
hobby I can abandon--if ABSOLUTELY necessary.

My freedom I cannot, and my attempting to maintain that/those freedom(s)
and oppose counter forces could easily kill me...

John

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:28:35 +0000, KØHB wrote:


"John Smith" wrote


Read my past posts, I say the hardware/software guys working on BPL have
some ideas to check out, they are doing that now. If it is feasible it
will come to use, if not, it too will go the way of the dodo bird. I am
saying any number of "authority hobbyists" which don't know a fifo, lilo,
circular queue, linked list, doubly-linked list or binary tree from a
banana tree don't count. And, most likely, don't even have the beginning
of knowledge to make a statement on its' feasibility.


Wasn't arguing it's feasibility --- it's proven to work.

I was challenging your expressed notion that the frequency of operation could
likely be held under 300KHz.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Product Development Manager http://www.adc.com

Dave Heil wrote:

John Smith wrote:

Dave:

"Jims' points" are mostly a ploy to inject points which are not even at
issue.


Yeah, that sneaky Jim--always working a ploy.

On BPL? Well there are a lot of test blocks where that is being
technically tested, evaluated and data is being recorded. I don't think
one needs futurist papers, Sylvia Browne, or some hams opinion--technical
data will make it a reality or not... that final data is not available
yet... I don't think a bunch of aging hams are going to block a
multi-billion dollar a year industry, if it is technically feasibly, I
know some of them think so, but rational men viewing them only grin
behind
their backs--but, as long as they only pay attention to their "net
buddy's" they will not have to suffer the embarrassment of coping with
reality...


A bunch of aging hams who are federally licensed trumps Part 15 users
each and every time. Some of those supposed rational, grinning men have
had to yank their BPL systems down because of interference.

Or, perhaps there is something of deep meaning and paramount importance
which I am failing to see here?


"Since you purport to have a ee degree,

Right. And I'm a pie-eyed greepus!


you might explain how some
signals held below 300 KHz could possibly serve a number of users (say
in a neighborhood) at 3 megabaud (or higher) rates?"

There you go.

Easy, Dave! Just plug a really fast modem into it!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael:

No michael, you are just a character assassin without a victim...

You are just a guy telling us you got all the facts, don't collect any
data--just listen to you--yep, love that "scientific method" of yours...
you sitting in a group of girly-men and they are hanging on your every
word... hope nothing knocks you out of your element, you will look as lost
as here...

John

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:02:52 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote:



Dave Heil wrote:

John Smith wrote:

Dave:

"Jims' points" are mostly a ploy to inject points which are not even at
issue.


Yeah, that sneaky Jim--always working a ploy.

On BPL? Well there are a lot of test blocks where that is being
technically tested, evaluated and data is being recorded. I don't think
one needs futurist papers, Sylvia Browne, or some hams opinion--technical
data will make it a reality or not... that final data is not available
yet... I don't think a bunch of aging hams are going to block a
multi-billion dollar a year industry, if it is technically feasibly, I
know some of them think so, but rational men viewing them only grin
behind
their backs--but, as long as they only pay attention to their "net
buddy's" they will not have to suffer the embarrassment of coping with
reality...


A bunch of aging hams who are federally licensed trumps Part 15 users
each and every time. Some of those supposed rational, grinning men have
had to yank their BPL systems down because of interference.

Or, perhaps there is something of deep meaning and paramount importance
which I am failing to see here?


"Since you purport to have a ee degree,

Right. And I'm a pie-eyed greepus!


you might explain how some
signals held below 300 KHz could possibly serve a number of users (say
in a neighborhood) at 3 megabaud (or higher) rates?"

There you go.

Easy, Dave! Just plug a really fast modem into it!

- Mike KB3EIA -