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#1
August 21st 05, 04:24 AM
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From: David Stinson on Aug 20, 5:34 pm
K4YZ wrote: The result has been a near-decade long rant against anything and everything that is "Amateur Radio" related. Nothing done by/with/for Amateur Radio/Amateur Radio Operators is "worthy" or "valid". Anyone with an Extra class licesne is a "thug", "jackboot", "Nazi", "elitist", etc etc etc. Alas, Steve; the world is full of people like that, who don't understand why they should not be *given* that for which they have not worked and which they have not earned. David, you are relatively new to THIS din of inequity and haven't been exposed to the Wrath of Stevie when you have Opposed his personal opinions! :-) Robeson has seldom, very seldom argued a SUBJECT in here, choosing instead to launch a series of Personal Attacks on anyone daring to oppose him on anything. Some Google searching will show that in sufficient quantity (thousands of postings insulting others) to bear that out. [the best referene on his personal frustrations anguish, and hatred displayed for all to see] In the last eight years in here, I've written (and opined) that United States amateur radio activity is interesting and fun for those who take a real part in it, for their personal enjoyment as an avocational pursuit. Having BEGUN HF radio communications in 1953 and NEVER having had to use/operate/know morse code then or at any time in a successful career as an electronics design engineer (I am retired - from regular hours), I feel that morse code testing for a radio AMATEUR license is unwarranted and the mystique around it ridiculous. If you wish to see where I began in communications 52 years ago: http://kauko.hallikainen.org/history...s/My3Years.pdf They become bitter and hateful adults (being forced to give up taunting and pitching fits after about 16... one would hope). David, you are free to think anything you wish of me, but in the reality of the newsgroup, it won't matter a great deal to me. I will remain as outspoken as ever. :-) All that nastygrams do is to take up space and a tiny amount of time in showing just how vacuuous and puerile such commentary is... They have other sociopathic characteristics, as well. Robeson's long history of postings in here reads like a Psych 101 introductory precis on Sociopathy. :-) Probably raised by "Dr. Spock" parents. Not in my case. :-) I was raised by naturalized citizen (born in Sweden) parents in the 1930s and 1940s. Benjamin Spock probably had not yet entered college yet...and certainly hadn't begun any PhD Dissertation. :-) David, you were born in 1957 and are 48 years old. I have MORE years as an adult working for a living than you have in total life experience. Now, I've read your Comment on WT Docket 05-235 and agree with you that morse code testing has no place in federal amateur radio licensing examinations. On the veneration of morse code itself, we differ markedly. We can confine any public discussions on WT Docket 05-235 to that and avoid personal squabbling such as demonstrated by Robeson and Jeswald...or not. Your choice. But, "ya gotta know da territory!" first... :-) RTF NCM |
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#2
August 21st 05, 10:14 AM
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David, you are relatively new to THIS din of inequity and haven't
been exposed to the Wrath of Stevie when you have Opposed his personal opinions! :-) Yes, leave it to a self-proclaimed, loquatious oldster to say in seven paragraphs that which could be said in a single sentence. Brevity and humility are not in Lennie's dictionary. Flatulence, on the other hand...... |
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#4
August 21st 05, 03:14 PM
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#5
August 21st 05, 04:29 PM
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David Stinson wrote: wrote: .... We can confine any public discussions on WT Docket 05-235 to that and avoid personal squabbling such as demonstrated by Robeson and Jeswald...or not. Your choice. But, "ya gotta know da territory!" first... :-) A careful reading of my post (and it was written carefully, just because of this) will show that I did not aim it specifically at you, though it was easy to imply, I suppose. I said "people like" those he mentioned. Though I do admit your first post within the tread read "tart" to me, so I added a little lemon to mine, as well ;-). I don't know you, Mr. Anderson, any more than I know Steve, but it's a good bet you have both halo and horns at the same time, just like everyone else on UseNet. Some have more one than the other, and at different times. But we can discuss this issue despite harps and pitchforks. I believe that Morse Code deserves preservation on two counts: 1. It has proven simple, practical and useful for 160+ years. That *you* have not used it, or that I have, is irrelevant. A very great many have, and successfully, over a long time. Bicycles are also "old technology," but that does not invalidate them as a simple and reliable means of transportation. A large fraction of humanity uses them, because they do not have the luxury of expensive automobiles and gas. Continuing within the context of such a society (or what an more wealthy society can certainly become, as anyone in South Africa can tell you): One must practice and develop skill in using a bicycle, if he wants to get around faster than walking. If one is unwilling to do the work and take the occasional fall needed to become a proficient bicycle rider, then they must accept walking. It is foolish and futile for those who have chosen to walk to curse those riding bicycles and the bicycles themselves. It is also foolish and short-sighted to take for granted that, once one has an SUV, that the need to ride a bicycle will never come again. On such a day, If *all* have forgotten how to ride, than all of us shall walk. If even a few are rewarded for remembering how to ride, they can teach the many. break 2. Historic preservation. There are some who place no value on spending assets to preserve touch-stones of humanity's progress. Most of us do, which is why we spend money and labor preserving "obsolete" ships, aircraft, telephones, steam engines, etc. All of them take money and work to preserve. Morse Code has been at least as important as the development of the telephone, radio and even the internet, having been the first "real-time" means of knitting-together the globe. I submit that is a valid reason to incentivize its preservation, and that my proposal is an inexpensive, efficient and reasonable means of doing so. But most of the money we spend are rasied form private sources with occasional expenses of public money. you want to set aside of the few things we can't buy or make any more of Spend your effort effort if you like but frist show that Morse is in any real danger before expecting to me to chip in for something that is what is the Value of the Spectrum you propose to set aside soley for Morse Code, without of course vacating its use from the rest of the ARS spectrum 73 Dave AB5S |
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#6
August 21st 05, 04:53 PM
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David:
No where in amateur radios mission statement is anything mentioned about a purpose to be "amateur museum-ists." CW will stand or fall upon its own merits. If there are amateurs who wish to collect ancient forms of communications (african messages drum, indian smoke signals, message arrow, morse code, etc) they should do so on their own. John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:14:53 +0000, David Stinson wrote: wrote: .... We can confine any public discussions on WT Docket 05-235 to that and avoid personal squabbling such as demonstrated by Robeson and Jeswald...or not. Your choice. But, "ya gotta know da territory!" first... :-) A careful reading of my post (and it was written carefully, just because of this) will show that I did not aim it specifically at you, though it was easy to imply, I suppose. I said "people like" those he mentioned. Though I do admit your first post within the tread read "tart" to me, so I added a little lemon to mine, as well ;-). I don't know you, Mr. Anderson, any more than I know Steve, but it's a good bet you have both halo and horns at the same time, just like everyone else on UseNet. Some have more one than the other, and at different times. But we can discuss this issue despite harps and pitchforks. I believe that Morse Code deserves preservation on two counts: 1. It has proven simple, practical and useful for 160+ years. That *you* have not used it, or that I have, is irrelevant. A very great many have, and successfully, over a long time. Bicycles are also "old technology," but that does not invalidate them as a simple and reliable means of transportation. A large fraction of humanity uses them, because they do not have the luxury of expensive automobiles and gas. Continuing within the context of such a society (or what an more wealthy society can certainly become, as anyone in South Africa can tell you): One must practice and develop skill in using a bicycle, if he wants to get around faster than walking. If one is unwilling to do the work and take the occasional fall needed to become a proficient bicycle rider, then they must accept walking. It is foolish and futile for those who have chosen to walk to curse those riding bicycles and the bicycles themselves. It is also foolish and short-sighted to take for granted that, once one has an SUV, that the need to ride a bicycle will never come again. On such a day, If *all* have forgotten how to ride, than all of us shall walk. If even a few are rewarded for remembering how to ride, they can teach the many. 2. Historic preservation. There are some who place no value on spending assets to preserve touch-stones of humanity's progress. Most of us do, which is why we spend money and labor preserving "obsolete" ships, aircraft, telephones, steam engines, etc. All of them take money and work to preserve. Morse Code has been at least as important as the development of the telephone, radio and even the internet, having been the first "real-time" means of knitting-together the globe. I submit that is a valid reason to incentivize its preservation, and that my proposal is an inexpensive, efficient and reasonable means of doing so. 73 Dave AB5S |
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#7
August 21st 05, 09:15 PM
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From: David Stinson on Aug 21, 7:14 am
wrote: .... We can confine any public discussions on WT Docket 05-235 to that and avoid personal squabbling such as demonstrated by Robeson and Jeswald...or not. Your choice. But, "ya gotta know da territory!" first... :-) A careful reading of my post (and it was written carefully, just because of this) will show that I did not aim it specifically at you, though it was easy to imply, I suppose. ALL public postings are OPEN for comment, any newsgroup. ANY kind of postings as you will gather with some experience in here. It's been like that even before ARPANET spun off the newly-created University Net (USENET). I said "people like" those he mentioned. "People like" turns into whatever your reaction is to certain posters. To repeat, you WILL notice the "flavor" of Robeson's "style" in this newsgroup...which is little more than a frustrated, angry person's wanting to turn every single thread into some personal vendetta. Though I do admit your first post within the tread read "tart" to me, so I added a little lemon to mine, as well ;-). Not a problem to me. :-) That's the "territory." I don't know you, Mr. Anderson, any more than I know Steve, but it's a good bet you have both halo and horns at the same time, just like everyone else on UseNet. Some have more one than the other, and at different times. Irrelevant, really. The SUBJECTS are not quantified or qualified by personal attacks against others. Yet, they are colored and flavored and chopped into meaningless puerile babble by a few who must vent their aggressions, caring little for anyone but themselves. But we can discuss this issue despite harps and pitchforks. Absolutely! [but...:-)...the harps will be discordant and the pitchforks jabbed by others in their obsessive need to fight] I believe that Morse Code deserves preservation on two counts: 1. It has proven simple, practical and useful for 160+ years. That *you* have not used it, or that I have, is irrelevant. A very great many have, and successfully, over a long time. Also true is that morse code has been SUPPLANTED, displaced, replaced by more efficient means of communication by humans in all radio AND wired venues...except in the avocational activities of radio hobbyists. Insofar as WT Docket 05-235 is concerned, that issue is solely about Test Element 1 of the U.S. amateur radio license examination. Anything other than elimination or retention of Test Element 1 in regards to morsemanship skills can be regarded as personal polemics that reach far beyond the subject. A closer examination of the history of Al Vail's contribution to the "morse code" shows merely that it is a representation of the English language characters used in a PRIMITIVE technology. One can only describe the original Morse-Vail Telegraph System as Primitive (with a capital P). One can only describe the OLD radio of 1896, the one without any active amplification devices as PRIMITIVE. At the time, some 109 years ago, about the ONLY practical means of using this new communications medium called "radio" (later description) was by ON-OFF KEYING. Since this landline morse code was then mature, past the 50-year mark, and had spread throughout most of the earth, is was practical to ADAPT it for radio communication. ADAPTATION is all that it was, not some "magick" conjured up by techno-wizards of the century before last. That "many used it" in the latter half of the 1800s is more due to it being BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED FOR COMMUNICATIONS BEFORE. The ONLY other means of instantaneous communications farther than audible means was optical, by semaphore vanes or flags, those being rendered ineffective by bad weather occluding the optical path. The Morse-Vail Telegraph System, patented largely through the "relay" part of their invention, was practical (for its time) and "efficient" (relative only to all other means of very-fast communications) despite an enormous (then) infrastructure of WIRE...wire that had to be strung on poles above ground due to as-yet undeveloped long-lasting insulation material. Expense was large for this infrastructure then but, the public it served was willing to pay for services rendered. It was BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED FOR COMMUNICATIONS BEFORE. As the Morse-Vail Telegraph System spread throughout the globe, a great many operators became proficient in this "morsemanship" skill. The period of 1844 to 1896 encompasses nearly three generations of "operators." That is certainly sufficient time to develop a set of skills on par with any other craft of that time, but a specialized one. It has no qualifications of being "better than" or "lesser than" any other skill of humans then. What did the Morse-Vail Telegraph System displace? The various optical means used in Europe and Great Britain, all of which required a heavy burden of infrastructure support. The horseback courier, a most common means of surface communications well before the overly-storied Pony Express (a short-lived system). The common paper letter postal system in part, those postings being carried by any means available. The then-cheap Morse-Vail Telegraph could reach about 100 miles maximum for a single circuit of one operator at each end. A much more expensive version (through underwater cable) could increase that distance ten times, but at only a slight reduction in throughput (rate of communications transmission)...still faster than by ship surface transport. The telegraph was BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED BEFORE. Enter "radio" as demonstrated in Italy and Russia in 1896. It was telegraphy WITHOUT wires. No expensive infrastructure of wires on poles and the unattended relay stations, no squabbles over rights-of-way of the telegraph lines. Even better, it could be used on water! The maritime world loved it...it was something THEY NEVER HAD BEFORE...a means of instant communications BEYOND the horizon! Incredible invention embraced whole-heartedly by navies and deep-water shipping then. A miracle of the times. RADIOTELEGRAPHY WAS BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED BEFORE. However, all was not as wonderful with land-based telegraphy at the turn of the last century. Manual telegraphy itself was being displaced, replaced by the PRINTING telegraph, the teleprinter. Teleprinter circuits were as long as the manual telegraph circuits, still required the wire-pole infrastructure, but the specialist telegrapher was NOT NEEDED at each end. The native written language was conveyed directly, could be read by any literate person, no need for translation into dots and dashes to send, then re-translation back to the written language on receipt. Telegraphers were being "downsized," displaced by something BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED BEFORE. Manual telegraphers turned to this new "radio." They could use their skills and craft in a new medium with minimal adaptation. The technology of "electronics" was then sufficiently primitive that the manual telegrapher specialist could generally learn this new "technology" and to operate the primitive controls. Early radio was a godsend to the displaced telegrapher specialist. However, technology did not stop with this magical new means of communication. The invention of the vacuum tube now made radio of far greater sensitivity, thus longer range, clean power amplification in transmitters, and it enabled VOICE transmission! Voice, nearly as clear as the land-line telephone, instantaneous, understandable to anyone speaking the language. New modes of communication opened up. The land-line teleprinter was adapted for use over radio. Those new modes were BETTER THAN WHAT WAS USED BEFORE (radiotelegraphy). "Radio" has been in CONTINUAL EVOLUTION over its quite-short lifespan barely over a century of time. Those who worship the beginnings of anything may embrace the first mode of radio, telegraphy, but that is solely on emotional, subjective terms. Radiotelegraphy came about ONLY because the on-off nature of telegraph transmission was suited to the primitive technology of ealy radio. EVOLUTION is a natural course of events, a sort of "Darwinism" applied to technology, humankind adopting what is BETTER THAN USED BEFORE. Bicycles are also "old technology," but that does not invalidate them as a simple and reliable means of transportation. The general sublect of TRANSPORT is not involved in WT Docket 05-235. In the subject of transport, HORSES were used as a simple and reliable means of transportation for CENTURIES before the evolution of metalworking and machinery made the bicycle possible. See two-wheeled chariots of the Roman Empire time, centuries past, all "powered" by horses. A large fraction of humanity uses them, because they do not have the luxury of expensive automobiles and gas. Horses can graze off the land, avoiding cost of feed. They can also reproduce themselves, thus avoiding costs of manufacturing. Continuing within the context of such a society (or what an more wealthy society can certainly become, as anyone in South Africa can tell you): One must practice and develop skill in using a bicycle, if he wants to get around faster than walking. In trying to get back to "radio," the invention of the manually wound spring generator radio receiver happened in South Africa. For that matter, while few written records exist to verify it, middle Africa had the "jungle telegraph" of drum rhythm representation of spoken native languages for centuries... If one is unwilling to do the work and take the occasional fall needed to become a proficient bicycle rider, then they must accept walking. Not a problem. Walking is as natural to humans as speech. We learn that as infants and progress in such things as we grow up. It is foolish and futile for those who have chosen to walk to curse those riding bicycles and the bicycles themselves. [that's beginning to sound like some Sunday School morality lesson...:-) ] Is anyone "cursing" riding bicycles? Other than on streets, that is? I think not. The parable of the bicycle is overdone. It is also foolish and short-sighted to take for granted that, once one has an SUV, that the need to ride a bicycle will never come again. While I've never driven an SUV nor do I own a bicycle, I was as fully qualified to drive an ancient "SUV" called the "Jeep" plus the "three-quarter-ton" truck and "deuce-and-a-half" (2 1/2 ton) truck in the military...as carrying a 70-pound field pack with a AN/PRC-6 handheld transceiver and personal weapon in the Army. I have never "sat" a horse nor do I intend to, yet horses have been used for human transport for centuries. [there are more horses in all of southern California than there are in the country of Sweden...as my late father used to remark with some humor] I do not venerate horses - which were there and used LONG before the bicycle - but can appreciate the feelings of horse lovers. On such a day, If *all* have forgotten how to ride, than all of us shall walk. Not a problem. Walking is fine, healthy personal transport. If even a few are rewarded for remembering how to ride, they can teach the many. "Always begin with the left foot" is a basic instruction in military close-order drill. Not a problem. :-) I must have learned walking as an infant, not remembering the empirical data derivation method of self-teaching since it has always been very natural. Humans ARE capable of self-learning a great many things. 2. Historic preservation. There are some who place no value on spending assets to preserve touch-stones of humanity's progress. I support the IEEE History section and regularly receive their bulletin/newsletter (containing "Static from the Editor" editorials). Marconi and Popov are given their rightful place in electronics history as are all the greats, the innovators, the inventors, the true pioneers of the electronics world such as James Clerk Maxwell and Heinrich Hertz and Lee de Forest and Edwin Armstrong (the troubled genius) and many, many others. Most of us do, which is why we spend money and labor preserving "obsolete" ships, aircraft, telephones, steam engines, etc. All of them take money and work to preserve. Morse Code has been at least as important as the development of the telephone, radio and even the internet, having been the first "real-time" means of knitting-together the globe. I prefer the Morse-Vail Telegraph System rather than just the manual telegraphic code used ON it. Without the "relay" of that invention, it would bave been limited to relatively short distances on land. I submit that is a valid reason to incentivize its preservation, and that my proposal is an inexpensive, efficient and reasonable means of doing so. The Federal Communications Commission is NOT chartered by law of Congress as a "historical preservation agency." There ALREADY exist a number of museums containing artifacts and recorded history of telegraphy all over the world. There exist at least a half dozen computer programs that permit self-learning of cognition of the "morse code' sound patterns, three of which are in use at the Military Intelligence School at Fort Huachuca, AZ, to train military intercept operators. I see NONE of that "incentivization" as being ANY reason for the retention of a Living Museum of Archaic Radiotelegraphy through federally-required radio operator licensing, commercial or amateur. I see the above as merely a desperate attempt to preserve a purely personal desire for a mode which is evolving out of practical existance...and has done so in every other civil radio service in the United States of America. Much of the "incentivization" by others on WT Docket 05-235 has been nothing more than transparent rationalization of their desire to maintain their PERSONAL rank-status-privileges, to keep the status as much quo as possible out of fear that changes in regulations will reduce their rank and status. May be fine for a clubhouse environment but NOT for federal laws and regulations applicable to ALL citizens. bit bat |
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