John,

My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing".
Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in
ham radio.

I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking
order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of
"class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones
license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid
idea. And I state it today.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
Dan:

At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there
is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as
as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to
flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends...

... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just
to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in
their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to
them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for
themselves.

It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what
visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies
about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones
mind...

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news

... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access.

You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old
Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just
the "stepping stone" to the General.

The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do
the test to keep a license. The Novice expired after 1 year and was
non-renewable.

Dan/W4NTI
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree

this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class
license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad
eup for in in removing that discontent

"John Smith" wrote in message
news

... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful,
as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting
to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras
so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the
unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great
CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
John,

My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing".
Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in
ham radio.

I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking
order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of
"class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones
license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid
idea. And I state it today.

Dan/W4NTI

and State something many of us can agree with you on

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

.... attitude adjustment, or plans to attempt to make newbies conform
to failed ways?

If you try something and it fails, and you try it again and it fails, and
you try it again it fails--there is something wrong with what you are
doing!

Simple logic really... at some point you must realize you need not ever
be afraid of that "solution" working!

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:37:09 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:


"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Dan/W4NTI

AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the
newbies! grin

.... what say you?

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

Dan:

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I agree I have run into way too many extras
with an attitude they are superior in some way, they are superior at CW,
but for some reason that looks like a damn simple thing to excited about,
it won't get you a job, it isn't an indication of IQ, it won't help you
feed your family, it is not suitable training for any real world skill,
etc, etc.

And, you know, the problem really isn't the extras enjoying their "opium
dreams" and looking ridiculous to really educated men while they are doing
so, it is the damn idiots they are able to snooker that makes you lose
faith in the human race! Has a good portion of this world become "extra
worshiping fools?", what kind of mental disorder is that? How come I get
the feeling like I went to bed and the world was sane, I woke up and
everyone has gone crazy?

I mean, it is really too lunatic for intelligent men to argue--fools are
grabbing hobby licenses and pretending to be intellectuals--I can't even
begin to describe the bizarre nature of this, or how they are so
successful at fooling others... I mean it is as simple as drugs--just say
NO!

I was afraid this is what you meant by "attitude adjustment" for the
newbies, indoctrination into the "church of extra worshiping hams!" Sorry
if I was mistaken...

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:32:02 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

John,

My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing".
Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in
ham radio.

I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking
order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of
"class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones
license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid
idea. And I state it today.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
Dan:

At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there
is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as
as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to
flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends...

... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just
to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in
their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to
them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for
themselves.

It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what
visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies
about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones
mind...

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

John Smith wrote:
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing
was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access.

You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges.
As did the old
Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.
And the Novice was just
the "stepping stone" to the General.

Actually it's a bit more complicated....

From the early 1930s until 1951, there was the three-class "ABC"
system. B and C were the same except C was by mail and B was by FCC
examiner. 13 wpm and a pretty serious written test.

Class A required a Class B or C for a year, plus another written test.
Only available from an FCC examiner, and if you had a Class C you had
to do the exam for Class B all over again.

The *only* operating difference was that Class A had 'phone on HF/MF
ham bands except 160, 10 and 11 meters, and Class B and C did not.

Back then there were no 30, 17, 15 or 12 meter ham bands. And 40 meters
was all Morse Code. The Class A 'phone bands were 75 and 20.

Then in 1951, FCC changed everything. Class A became Advanced, Class B
became General and Class C became Conditional. The new Extra,
Technician and Novice licenses were created. And they announced that
after the end of 1952 there would be no more new Advanceds - you'd need
an Extra to do 'phone on the above-mentioned HF bands.

But in December 1952, just as time was running out, FCC reversed itself
completely, and gave all privileges to all US hams except Novices and
Techs.

FCC continued on that path in the following years. 40 meters got a
'phone segment, and when 15 became a ham band, it soon got a 'phone
segment too.

Some folks were very unhappy about it all. The Class A 'phone bands
became full of newbies with General and Conditional tickets. Only a few
thousand hams got Extras. The Novice was
enormously popular even though it gave extremely limited privileges.

This happy state of affairs lasted only a decade - then FCC began
making noises of disappointment about how few hams had Extras and how
much appliance operating was going on. ARRL responded with a simple
proposal: reopen the Advanced to new issues, and go back to the old
system where HF 'phone required an Advanced or Extra.

For about 5 years there were discussions that made the code-test issue
look tame. All sorts of proposals came and went - the idea of a
rabbit-warren of subbands-by-license-class came from CQ magazine, for
example.

A *lot* of folks were very unhappy because when the new rules went into
effect, they lost operating privs.

The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do
the test to keep a license.

The Tech was originally meant for those not interested in HF.
It originally did not have 6 and 2 meters.

The Novice expired after 1 year and was
non-renewable.

Not only that, it was "non-retakeable". Only those who had never held
any class of ham license before could get a Novice. One year,
one shot - upgrade or go off the air.

At the end of WW2, there were about 60,000 US hams

By 1951, there were about 100,000 US hams. About 30% were Class A and
the rest B and C.

By 1965, there were over 250,000 US hams. About 18,000 were Novices,
about 40,000 were Advanced, and only about 4,000 were Extras. The rest
were mostly Generals and Conditionals, with a few thousand Techs.

The result was that the vast majority (at least 85%) of US hams had all
operating priviliges.

Despite all the changes in the intervening years, FCC says in the NPRM
that it thinks there need to be 3 license classes - Tech, General and
Extra, with frequency space as the incentive to upgrade. FCC is content
to let the Novice, Advanced and Tech Plus licenses disappear by
attrition and upgrading Technicians as Techs.

Was the old system better?

73 de Jim, N2EY