Dan:

I can think of at least one way to make incentive licensing more
effective, perhaps up to 100% effective:

Trick those in question into consuming a very slow acting poison. Then
tell them, "Those who pass a CW exam at 13+ wpm will get the antidote, the
poison will kill you in a month if you are unsuccessful. Then, shove a
CPO in their hand and a study book, come back just short of a month and
administer the test--I expect very few would die."

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:35:21 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access.

You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old
Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just
the "stepping stone" to the General.

The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do
the test to keep a license. The Novice expired after 1 year and was
non-renewable.

Dan/W4NTI
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree

this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class
license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad
eup for in in removing that discontent

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful,
as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting
to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras
so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the
unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great
CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to)
about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
ink.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student
is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.

But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience
who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need
your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint
during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF.

Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any
success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that
the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way
too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or
two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he
"knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up.

There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them.

While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a
number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything.

And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set
themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world:

While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world,
there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student.
The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for
the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -

.... attitude adjustment, or plans to attempt to make newbies conform
to failed ways?

If you try something and it fails, and you try it again and it fails, and
you try it again it fails--there is something wrong with what you are
doing!

Simple logic really... at some point you must realize you need not ever
be afraid of that "solution" working!

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:37:09 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:


"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Dan/W4NTI

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI


Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

class warfare? Oy!

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking
order *regardless* of the situation. Were there only *one* class of ham,
some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by
virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that
way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda
like human nature.

In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use,
nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different.



- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

class warfare? Oy!

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking
order *regardless* of the situation.

It was that way back in those days too. I was there.

Some of the SSB folks thought they were better than the AM gang. Some
folks with Collins looked down on others with less-expensive rigs. Some
of those with Drake looked down on others, yet considered the Collins
folks to be snobs. Some with 1x3 calls looked down on those with 2x3
calls.

Etc. You get the drift. Key word is "some".

Were there only *one* class of ham,
some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by
virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that
way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda
like human nature.

Heck, we've got someone here in rrap who isn't even a ham, yet looks
down on practically all of us! ;-)

In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use,
nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different.

Of course. The lines would be drawn another way. Equipment, modes, etc.


Shall I post the Smith Chart piece again?


73 de Jim, N2EY

"John Smith" wrote in message
news

... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

Wait a cotton-pickin' minute here ... there are MANY of us who hold extra
class licenses who don't treat other hams that way.

In my travels around the Atlantic Division to club meetings and hamfests, I
have not had a SINGLE person insist that the code test MUST remain.

(Some, but VERY few, have expressed a *mild* personal preference for keeping
the 5 wpm for the extra only, but have indicated that they aren't going to
"get their skivies in a bunch" if the FCC eliminates ALL code testing. The
VAST majority have said, something along the lines of either "I don't use CW
myself and I think it's high time the test was eliminated." or "I like to
use CW, but it's time for the test to go so we can get more people
(particularly kids) involved in ham radio so there are hams remaining when
we're gone.")

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c

Carl:

Really man, just poking a bit of fun, it is all good...

It will all work out, I just attempt to appeal to those with a sense of
humor who do not take themselves too seriously...

I would not want to see anyone denied the use of CW if that is what they
wish--I am an american believing in the pursuit of happiness... I don't
think CW'ers dumb or stupid or anything of the sort, but hey, it gets an
argument out of 'em... I do believe element 1 should go the way of the
dinosaur and dodo though... it is good for the old timers...

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:01:35 +0000, Carl R. Stevenson wrote:


"John Smith" wrote in message
news

... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

Wait a cotton-pickin' minute here ... there are MANY of us who hold extra
class licenses who don't treat other hams that way.

In my travels around the Atlantic Division to club meetings and hamfests, I
have not had a SINGLE person insist that the code test MUST remain.

(Some, but VERY few, have expressed a *mild* personal preference for keeping
the 5 wpm for the extra only, but have indicated that they aren't going to
"get their skivies in a bunch" if the FCC eliminates ALL code testing. The
VAST majority have said, something along the lines of either "I don't use CW
myself and I think it's high time the test was eliminated." or "I like to
use CW, but it's time for the test to go so we can get more people
(particularly kids) involved in ham radio so there are hams remaining when
we're gone.")

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c