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EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA...
.... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... .... but then, what is news about that ... John |
.... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... .... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
Dan:
At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends... .... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for themselves. It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones mind... John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad eup for in in removing that discontent "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
"John Smith" wrote in message ... ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John Wait a cotton-pickin' minute here ... there are MANY of us who hold extra class licenses who don't treat other hams that way. In my travels around the Atlantic Division to club meetings and hamfests, I have not had a SINGLE person insist that the code test MUST remain. (Some, but VERY few, have expressed a *mild* personal preference for keeping the 5 wpm for the extra only, but have indicated that they aren't going to "get their skivies in a bunch" if the FCC eliminates ALL code testing. The VAST majority have said, something along the lines of either "I don't use CW myself and I think it's high time the test was eliminated." or "I like to use CW, but it's time for the test to go so we can get more people (particularly kids) involved in ham radio so there are hams remaining when we're gone.") 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c |
"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c |
Carl:
Really man, just poking a bit of fun, it is all good... It will all work out, I just attempt to appeal to those with a sense of humor who do not take themselves too seriously... I would not want to see anyone denied the use of CW if that is what they wish--I am an american believing in the pursuit of happiness... I don't think CW'ers dumb or stupid or anything of the sort, but hey, it gets an argument out of 'em... I do believe element 1 should go the way of the dinosaur and dodo though... it is good for the old timers... John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:01:35 +0000, Carl R. Stevenson wrote: "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John Wait a cotton-pickin' minute here ... there are MANY of us who hold extra class licenses who don't treat other hams that way. In my travels around the Atlantic Division to club meetings and hamfests, I have not had a SINGLE person insist that the code test MUST remain. (Some, but VERY few, have expressed a *mild* personal preference for keeping the 5 wpm for the extra only, but have indicated that they aren't going to "get their skivies in a bunch" if the FCC eliminates ALL code testing. The VAST majority have said, something along the lines of either "I don't use CW myself and I think it's high time the test was eliminated." or "I like to use CW, but it's time for the test to go so we can get more people (particularly kids) involved in ham radio so there are hams remaining when we're gone.") 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c |
John Smith wrote:
Carl: Really man, just poking a bit of fun, it is all good... It will all work out, I just attempt to appeal to those with a sense of humor who do not take themselves too seriously... I would not want to see anyone denied the use of CW if that is what they wish--I am an american believing in the pursuit of happiness... I don't think CW'ers dumb or stupid or anything of the sort, but hey, it gets an argument out of 'em... In other words, "John Smith" is just an anonymous troll, making baseless insulting statements just to stir up an argument. And he thinks it's "all good" and "funny" to do so. |
N2EY:
It is probably easy for you to make that mistake in your analysis. As you totally ignore the fact the real problem is the amateurs who take themselves FAR too seriously, attempt to manipulate others with their control freak attitudes, have held amateur radio back in the stone age because of their unwillingness to accept and adopt progress. Ignore the almost total lack of newbies entering the hobby, etc, etc... Yes, I can accept it looks that way to you, and you want to block discussion on the matter because any discussion and thought causes the facts to come foreword, and the truth becomes obvious. However, I think you too late, the cat is out of the bag and all can see who can face reality... Cheap shots at diverting attention away from the real facts and onto attacks and battles over personalities only work on those who do not see reality in the stark light which depicts the decayed state amateur radio has drifted into under those stewardship who have used these tactics... I'd cut out the personal attacks and show some embarrassment if I was you, if there was a shred of credibility left to be had, I'd attempt to win it back--if I were you... John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:29:02 -0700, N2EY wrote: John Smith wrote: Carl: Really man, just poking a bit of fun, it is all good... It will all work out, I just attempt to appeal to those with a sense of humor who do not take themselves too seriously... I would not want to see anyone denied the use of CW if that is what they wish--I am an american believing in the pursuit of happiness... I don't think CW'ers dumb or stupid or anything of the sort, but hey, it gets an argument out of 'em... In other words, "John Smith" is just an anonymous troll, making baseless insulting statements just to stir up an argument. And he thinks it's "all good" and "funny" to do so. |
John,
My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing". Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in ham radio. I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of "class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid idea. And I state it today. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... Dan: At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends... ... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for themselves. It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones mind... John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access. You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just the "stepping stone" to the General. The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do the test to keep a license. The Novice expired after 1 year and was non-renewable. Dan/W4NTI "an_old_friend" wrote in message ups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad eup for in in removing that discontent "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: John, My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing". Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in ham radio. I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of "class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid idea. And I state it today. Dan/W4NTI and State something many of us can agree with you on |
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Dan/W4NTI |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
.... attitude adjustment, or plans to attempt to make newbies conform to failed ways? If you try something and it fails, and you try it again and it fails, and you try it again it fails--there is something wrong with what you are doing! Simple logic really... at some point you must realize you need not ever be afraid of that "solution" working! John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:37:09 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Dan/W4NTI |
AOF:
I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin .... what say you? John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
Dan:
Perhaps I misunderstood you. I agree I have run into way too many extras with an attitude they are superior in some way, they are superior at CW, but for some reason that looks like a damn simple thing to excited about, it won't get you a job, it isn't an indication of IQ, it won't help you feed your family, it is not suitable training for any real world skill, etc, etc. And, you know, the problem really isn't the extras enjoying their "opium dreams" and looking ridiculous to really educated men while they are doing so, it is the damn idiots they are able to snooker that makes you lose faith in the human race! Has a good portion of this world become "extra worshiping fools?", what kind of mental disorder is that? How come I get the feeling like I went to bed and the world was sane, I woke up and everyone has gone crazy? I mean, it is really too lunatic for intelligent men to argue--fools are grabbing hobby licenses and pretending to be intellectuals--I can't even begin to describe the bizarre nature of this, or how they are so successful at fooling others... I mean it is as simple as drugs--just say NO! I was afraid this is what you meant by "attitude adjustment" for the newbies, indoctrination into the "church of extra worshiping hams!" Sorry if I was mistaken... John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:32:02 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: John, My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing". Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in ham radio. I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of "class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid idea. And I state it today. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... Dan: At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends... ... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for themselves. It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones mind... John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
John Smith wrote: AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us there was a defacto one license system for HF access. You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just the "stepping stone" to the General. Actually it's a bit more complicated.... From the early 1930s until 1951, there was the three-class "ABC" system. B and C were the same except C was by mail and B was by FCC examiner. 13 wpm and a pretty serious written test. Class A required a Class B or C for a year, plus another written test. Only available from an FCC examiner, and if you had a Class C you had to do the exam for Class B all over again. The *only* operating difference was that Class A had 'phone on HF/MF ham bands except 160, 10 and 11 meters, and Class B and C did not. Back then there were no 30, 17, 15 or 12 meter ham bands. And 40 meters was all Morse Code. The Class A 'phone bands were 75 and 20. Then in 1951, FCC changed everything. Class A became Advanced, Class B became General and Class C became Conditional. The new Extra, Technician and Novice licenses were created. And they announced that after the end of 1952 there would be no more new Advanceds - you'd need an Extra to do 'phone on the above-mentioned HF bands. But in December 1952, just as time was running out, FCC reversed itself completely, and gave all privileges to all US hams except Novices and Techs. FCC continued on that path in the following years. 40 meters got a 'phone segment, and when 15 became a ham band, it soon got a 'phone segment too. Some folks were very unhappy about it all. The Class A 'phone bands became full of newbies with General and Conditional tickets. Only a few thousand hams got Extras. The Novice was enormously popular even though it gave extremely limited privileges. This happy state of affairs lasted only a decade - then FCC began making noises of disappointment about how few hams had Extras and how much appliance operating was going on. ARRL responded with a simple proposal: reopen the Advanced to new issues, and go back to the old system where HF 'phone required an Advanced or Extra. For about 5 years there were discussions that made the code-test issue look tame. All sorts of proposals came and went - the idea of a rabbit-warren of subbands-by-license-class came from CQ magazine, for example. A *lot* of folks were very unhappy because when the new rules went into effect, they lost operating privs. The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do the test to keep a license. The Tech was originally meant for those not interested in HF. It originally did not have 6 and 2 meters. The Novice expired after 1 year and was non-renewable. Not only that, it was "non-retakeable". Only those who had never held any class of ham license before could get a Novice. One year, one shot - upgrade or go off the air. At the end of WW2, there were about 60,000 US hams By 1951, there were about 100,000 US hams. About 30% were Class A and the rest B and C. By 1965, there were over 250,000 US hams. About 18,000 were Novices, about 40,000 were Advanced, and only about 4,000 were Extras. The rest were mostly Generals and Conditionals, with a few thousand Techs. The result was that the vast majority (at least 85%) of US hams had all operating priviliges. Despite all the changes in the intervening years, FCC says in the NPRM that it thinks there need to be 3 license classes - Tech, General and Extra, with frequency space as the incentive to upgrade. FCC is content to let the Novice, Advanced and Tech Plus licenses disappear by attrition and upgrading Technicians as Techs. Was the old system better? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. class warfare? Oy! We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking order *regardless* of the situation. Were there only *one* class of ham, some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda like human nature. In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use, nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message ink.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF. Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he "knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up. There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them. While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything. And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world: While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift. It goes both ways. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike:
Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc... .... newbies be warned! John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message link.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF. Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he "knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up. There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them. While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything. And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world: While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift. It goes both ways. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Dan:
I can think of at least one way to make incentive licensing more effective, perhaps up to 100% effective: Trick those in question into consuming a very slow acting poison. Then tell them, "Those who pass a CW exam at 13+ wpm will get the antidote, the poison will kill you in a month if you are unsuccessful. Then, shove a CPO in their hand and a study book, come back just short of a month and administer the test--I expect very few would die." John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:35:21 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us there was a defacto one license system for HF access. You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just the "stepping stone" to the General. The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do the test to keep a license. The Novice expired after 1 year and was non-renewable. Dan/W4NTI "an_old_friend" wrote in message ups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad eup for in in removing that discontent "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
John Smith wrote:
Mike: Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc... ... newbies be warned! The drawn line? The inexperienced Extra who refused advice on how to work in a QSO party probably didn't have much fun in the contest. Staying overnight, and making 6 QSO's probably wasn't much fun. The other guy with the happy fingers on the keyboard did eventually calm down enough to make a few QSO's, but still blamed his problems on the antenna. I doubt that either of these guys will go on to have much fun in Amateur radio. Who knows why some people are so reluctant to take a little advice. Perhaps they are sensitive, and don't want to be thought of as not knowing everything (like who does) OTOH, I did indeed treat my Elmers with respect, and learned a lot. Some of them were old, and some were cantankerous. Big deal. Treat a person right, and they are usually happy to share their knowledge with ya. I'm happy to learn from anyone, even those who think I am a horses patoot. - mike KB3EIA - On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message hlink.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF. Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he "knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up. There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them. While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything. And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world: While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift. It goes both ways. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike:
It is all what you are after, usually my amateur interaction is not a group effort, I take the extra time to search out real conversation, not just signal reports, phone quality, equip. lists, etc... perhaps I fancy myself a cowboy, I just think of it as making good use of my time... some net work is alright, mostly there I listen a lot, heck, if they are willing to do all the talking might as well fall asleep listening to them... John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:21:42 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: John Smith wrote: Mike: Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc... ... newbies be warned! The drawn line? The inexperienced Extra who refused advice on how to work in a QSO party probably didn't have much fun in the contest. Staying overnight, and making 6 QSO's probably wasn't much fun. The other guy with the happy fingers on the keyboard did eventually calm down enough to make a few QSO's, but still blamed his problems on the antenna. I doubt that either of these guys will go on to have much fun in Amateur radio. Who knows why some people are so reluctant to take a little advice. Perhaps they are sensitive, and don't want to be thought of as not knowing everything (like who does) OTOH, I did indeed treat my Elmers with respect, and learned a lot. Some of them were old, and some were cantankerous. Big deal. Treat a person right, and they are usually happy to share their knowledge with ya. I'm happy to learn from anyone, even those who think I am a horses patoot. - mike KB3EIA - On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message thlink.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF. Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he "knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up. There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them. While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything. And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world: While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift. It goes both ways. - Mike KB3EIA - |
John Smith wrote:
If you try something and it fails, and you try it again and it fails, and you try it again it fails--there is something wrong with what you are doing! If at first you don't succeed, you're running about average. |
Mike Coslo wrote:
Carl R. Stevenson wrote: "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. class warfare? Oy! We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking order *regardless* of the situation. It was that way back in those days too. I was there. Some of the SSB folks thought they were better than the AM gang. Some folks with Collins looked down on others with less-expensive rigs. Some of those with Drake looked down on others, yet considered the Collins folks to be snobs. Some with 1x3 calls looked down on those with 2x3 calls. Etc. You get the drift. Key word is "some". Were there only *one* class of ham, some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda like human nature. Heck, we've got someone here in rrap who isn't even a ham, yet looks down on practically all of us! ;-) In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use, nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different. Of course. The lines would be drawn another way. Equipment, modes, etc. Shall I post the Smith Chart piece again? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message link.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because these students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end, I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often realize that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on their self esteem than anything I can think of. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
No John,
I do not believe having an Extra Amateur Radio License should, or does make the holder somehow superior. All it tells me is that they followed to rules to get what privileges are available, in a legal manner. It shows dedication and perseverance. Not superiority. As I stated before, I believe incentive licensing is the scourge of Amateur Radio, and is directly related to all this "in fighting" we have these days. For what it's worth. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... Dan: Perhaps I misunderstood you. I agree I have run into way too many extras with an attitude they are superior in some way, they are superior at CW, but for some reason that looks like a damn simple thing to excited about, it won't get you a job, it isn't an indication of IQ, it won't help you feed your family, it is not suitable training for any real world skill, etc, etc. And, you know, the problem really isn't the extras enjoying their "opium dreams" and looking ridiculous to really educated men while they are doing so, it is the damn idiots they are able to snooker that makes you lose faith in the human race! Has a good portion of this world become "extra worshiping fools?", what kind of mental disorder is that? How come I get the feeling like I went to bed and the world was sane, I woke up and everyone has gone crazy? I mean, it is really too lunatic for intelligent men to argue--fools are grabbing hobby licenses and pretending to be intellectuals--I can't even begin to describe the bizarre nature of this, or how they are so successful at fooling others... I mean it is as simple as drugs--just say NO! I was afraid this is what you meant by "attitude adjustment" for the newbies, indoctrination into the "church of extra worshiping hams!" Sorry if I was mistaken... John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:32:02 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: John, My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing". Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes in ham radio. I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of "class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of ones license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this stupid idea. And I state it today. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... Dan: At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity there is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use as as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends... ... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and just to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it to them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed for themselves. It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom what visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones mind... John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... ... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful, as of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual, as of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting to glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras so worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the unwitting... ... rumors only, mind you! John On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote: ... read all about it! Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of licenses" into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great CW God"... ... but then, what is news about that ... John |
wrote in message ups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us there was a defacto one license system for HF access. You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just the "stepping stone" to the General. Actually it's a bit more complicated.... From the early 1930s until 1951, there was the three-class "ABC" system. B and C were the same except C was by mail and B was by FCC examiner. 13 wpm and a pretty serious written test. Class A required a Class B or C for a year, plus another written test. Only available from an FCC examiner, and if you had a Class C you had to do the exam for Class B all over again. The *only* operating difference was that Class A had 'phone on HF/MF ham bands except 160, 10 and 11 meters, and Class B and C did not. Back then there were no 30, 17, 15 or 12 meter ham bands. And 40 meters was all Morse Code. The Class A 'phone bands were 75 and 20. Then in 1951, FCC changed everything. Class A became Advanced, Class B became General and Class C became Conditional. The new Extra, Technician and Novice licenses were created. And they announced that after the end of 1952 there would be no more new Advanceds - you'd need an Extra to do 'phone on the above-mentioned HF bands. But in December 1952, just as time was running out, FCC reversed itself completely, and gave all privileges to all US hams except Novices and Techs. FCC continued on that path in the following years. 40 meters got a 'phone segment, and when 15 became a ham band, it soon got a 'phone segment too. Some folks were very unhappy about it all. The Class A 'phone bands became full of newbies with General and Conditional tickets. Only a few thousand hams got Extras. The Novice was enormously popular even though it gave extremely limited privileges. This happy state of affairs lasted only a decade - then FCC began making noises of disappointment about how few hams had Extras and how much appliance operating was going on. ARRL responded with a simple proposal: reopen the Advanced to new issues, and go back to the old system where HF 'phone required an Advanced or Extra. For about 5 years there were discussions that made the code-test issue look tame. All sorts of proposals came and went - the idea of a rabbit-warren of subbands-by-license-class came from CQ magazine, for example. A *lot* of folks were very unhappy because when the new rules went into effect, they lost operating privs. The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do the test to keep a license. The Tech was originally meant for those not interested in HF. It originally did not have 6 and 2 meters. The Novice expired after 1 year and was non-renewable. Not only that, it was "non-retakeable". Only those who had never held any class of ham license before could get a Novice. One year, one shot - upgrade or go off the air. At the end of WW2, there were about 60,000 US hams By 1951, there were about 100,000 US hams. About 30% were Class A and the rest B and C. By 1965, there were over 250,000 US hams. About 18,000 were Novices, about 40,000 were Advanced, and only about 4,000 were Extras. The rest were mostly Generals and Conditionals, with a few thousand Techs. The result was that the vast majority (at least 85%) of US hams had all operating priviliges. Despite all the changes in the intervening years, FCC says in the NPRM that it thinks there need to be 3 license classes - Tech, General and Extra, with frequency space as the incentive to upgrade. FCC is content to let the Novice, Advanced and Tech Plus licenses disappear by attrition and upgrading Technicians as Techs. Was the old system better? 73 de Jim, N2EY It must have been. The FCC is going back to it. Modern version of 3 license structure. I should have been a bit more clear. I was referening to the period from 1961 on. However I do have some gaps. Especially from 64 to 68, I was busy elsewhere. Dan/W4NTI Dan/W4NTI |
I say you full of yourself John.
Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
To help you out 'old friend'....."attitude adjustment" = Leaving all the CB
bullcrap where it belongs and pay attention to what is going on with HAM RADIO. They are NOT THE SAME. And instead of trying to change the world of Ham Radio, learn something from those that have been there and done it. SEE? Dan/W4NTI "an old friend" wrote in message oups.com... John Smith wrote: AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
Dan/W4NTI wrote: I say you full of yourself John. of course he is as you are full of yourself Without having Met John or you I am 100% certain that the contents of each of your boddies is 100 percent you, unless you have jiont replacement or something like that Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift. It goes both ways. - Mike KB3EIA - Everyone out there copy and paste this to your foreheads. It is great advice. Dan/W4NTI |
You want to give these Liberal taught kids a lesson in self respect?
Draft them into the military. That will fix the situation in LESS than a generation. Dan/W4NTI "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message hlink.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because these students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end, I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often realize that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on their self esteem than anything I can think of. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
From: Dee Flint on Aug 23, 3:37 pm
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! :-) We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. [tsk, if that could only extend beyond...to newsgroups...:-) ] This stuff has GOT to stop! Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. [whoops...Dan blew it with the "attitude adjustement" remark...] You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. [Carl, some folks in here will disagree with you...not in a kindly manner...:-) ] I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly mishandled. Hello? Is Dee talking about the Public School System now? Where is amateur radio taught in public schools? While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. It MUST be the public school system. Sure as "heck" that doesn't apply in HERE. :-) Because these students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end, I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. Sounds like what happened to all them olde-tyme hammes trying to perpetuate the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society) & morsemanship. They do often realize that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so lowly that they aren't worth helping. Yup, that's what all them olde-tyme hamme morsemen are doing with all the NCTA (lowly beyond belief, not having the "proper attitude" and worshiping these mighty masters of radio). This is a bigger hit on their self esteem than anything I can think of. Except in some females' cases where their remarks are, well, it can't be said in here... :-) OKAY, all you ESTEEMED ELMERS...GET OUT THERE and Win One for Hiram! ADJUST THOSE ATTITUDES! STAND AT ATTENTION WHEN AN ELMER TALKS TO YOU! Farf...snort... :-) elm oak |
Dee:
There are naturally gifted teachers, but they are not all that common place, the rest need some formal training, and some will never be teachers. From personal experience, I have grown to think the very worst--think themselves the very best--with some, no amount of real world proof will get the point across that they need to adjust their teaching method, for this reason, some should NOT have tenure. What is true knowledge and what is just personal dislikes, opinions and beliefs is a real problem to, unless you have a strong ability to keep the two separated, science and religion, you are going to have great difficulty with any but avg and below avg students--they know the difference. There are bandwidth allocations, math formulas dealing with electronic circuits, regulations in the FCC rules, etc.--and then there is "style." If you attempt to teach your "style", be prepared to be frustrated--some will accept it to be nice--then go about their business, others will need religion and are searching for purpose and acceptance and will adopt it--and, yet again, others may think you a control freak... but you have seen this in the real world about you and I waste both our time reiterating such... John On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:37:16 -0400, Dee Flint wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message hlink.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice in a kindly manner. I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because these students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end, I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often realize that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on their self esteem than anything I can think of. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dan:
Strange, that is what I was thinking about you--and put to text... you did manage to sum it up with few words... John On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:59:39 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: I say you full of yourself John. Dan/W4NTI "John Smith" wrote in message ... AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
Dan:
The only difference between cb and amateur is megacycles and "church doctrines." Of course, if you can BS those without a ticket and who do not "CB", then anything you are capable of convincing them of will most likely float--but don't BS a BS'er, it don't work... John On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:02:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote: To help you out 'old friend'....."attitude adjustment" = Leaving all the CB bullcrap where it belongs and pay attention to what is going on with HAM RADIO. They are NOT THE SAME. And instead of trying to change the world of Ham Radio, learn something from those that have been there and done it. SEE? Dan/W4NTI "an old friend" wrote in message oups.com... John Smith wrote: AOF: I most strongly suspect: newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the newbies! grin ... what say you? In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one John On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ... "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message k.net... There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is. Dan/W4NTI Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!! We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare. We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt. This stuff has GOT to stop! 73, Carl - wk3c http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems. Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here Dan/W4NTI |
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