Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:

K0HB:


Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most
of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially
in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly
lotus-blossom-eaters.


For some it is easier to attack the thinker than
to disprove the idea....


It certainly is a lot easier to say "God makes it so, so it is"


The hard part is defining what is meant by "God"...

Not for those who want the easy answer. There are
plenty enough people
who are just slap happy to tell us that!

First, just for starters, to get all the necessary elements
formed into
the complex amino acids to create the RNA is preposterous--
let alone the
actual creation of the RNA (and this would only be a virus--
unable to
replicate on its own.)

Why no, it really isn't preposterous.

What are the titles of your books?


Next, to get a complex DNA structure would be
another extraordinary event, for the proper structure
(organism) to be
present and form around the DNA AND be able to use the DNA
would be
another extraordinary event, for this organism to be
able to replicate
would be one more extraordinary event, for just one of these single celled
organisms to go "multi-cellular" would be one more
extraordinary event,
then for each cell to develop specialized functions--another extraordinary
event, for them to form complete organs handling a specific
function--another extraordinary event.... AND THIS IS
SUPPOSED TO GO
RIGHT ON UP TO WHERE THE ORGANISM IS CAPABLE OF SELF-
REALIZATION, COMPLEX
THOUGHT AND CONSIDERS ITSELF TO HAVE A SPIRIT!


At times like this, it's important to recall the
Unnamed Law:

"If it happens, it must be possible"


You are off the scientific track to begin with, otherwise
you wouldn't
use the string of "Preposterous, Extraordinary, impossible,
endlessly
number, impossible links, Impossible- end of story" stuff.


What's really missing in those statements is imagination.

Look at your PC or Mac. Then look at pictures of ENIAC (or actually go
see it, as I have done...)

Could anyone imagine that today's PCs are the direct descendants
of that machine? Yet they are, after just 60 years


Want to see a few things that are interesting?

Look up lipid structures, and see their likely early life implications.
No miracles here, just simple chemistry.

You speak of RNA and DNA. When speaking of origins of
life, it is
probably better to speak of metabolic pathways, as the DNA and RNA
probably evolved to accommodate them.

And are they complicated!

see http://tinyurl.com/dm8hu


This is a pdf file of the various metabolic pathways. While the major
ones are ATP and glycolysis, there are many.

Now whereas you may look at this chart, and say look how complicated!
this is proof that we are created by God!, I look at it and
say "What
kind of God would create such a sloppy convoluted MESS!"


"You see, to be quite frank, Kevin, the fabric of the universe
is far from perfect. It was a bit of botched job, you see. We
only had seven days to make it. And that's where this comes in.
This is the only map of all the holes. Well, why repair them?
Why not use them to get stinking rich?"

Hitchhikers guide?

No.

"Time Bandits" (Terry Gilliam film from 1981, still dead-on)

I can only speak for myself, but if I were to create
life, I would
leave no doubt that it was created. There would be no
processes, no
interconnected pathways, nothing of the sort.


"God is not interested in technology... He knows nothing of
the potential of the micro-chip or the silicon revolution.
He's obsessed with making the grass grow and getting
rainbows right... Look at what he spends his time on.
43 species of parrot! Nipples for men! Slugs! HE created
slugs! They
can't hear. They can't speak. They can't operate machinery.
Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?

If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with
butterflies and
daffodils. I would have started with lasers,
eight o'clock, Day One!"

Also from Time Bandits.

My creatures would see because I made them see, would think
because
they just do, and there would be no obvious source of life -
cut one of
them open, and inside would be nothing.

A genuine miracle. Simple, and allowing of no argument.


Is not life-as-we-know-it a genuine miracle, regardless of
how it came about?

Sure! But not the same kind of miracle.

Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to work miracles.

Ours is a miracle of
different
processes. We live because of various chemical reactions,
taking energy
and transforming it into ourselves.

Well, some of it. A large diesel engine is more efficient...

No, I'm talking about life that takes in no energy, and no
apparent
support structure. It just IS. The life forms should be just
sacks of
goo that have no obvious reason to be alive. They just are.
There would
be no question that someone had to "make" that life.

Why?

... as you can quickly see, this chain of impossible,
seemingly endlessly
numbered and impossible links of extraordinary events to have all
occurred, all at just the right time, all in just the proper order is just
too mathematically impossible to have any believe but those
willing to
believe the most preposterous impossibility which could ever be devised...
in plain english--IT IS IMPOSSIBLE--END OF STORY!

You try to make it much more complicated sounding than it is.


What you're seeing in those statements is a lack of imagination.
Plus a failure to comprehend how long a billion years is...

There are moments where I believe that I can. At least for a few
minutes. Then I invariably get a headache! 8^)


Those books on the subject, start quickly to, toss around
these CHAINS of
extraordinary events without the slightest considerations to the
mathematical possibilities, which end up being NON-EXISTENT!

What were those books again?


"If it happens, it must be possible"

absolutely, and it is possible, it must happen.

Not necessarily. All that happens must be possible, but
all that is possible doesn't necessarily happen.

I had the fortune to have a mathematics professor who I
worked with at the
university, who obtained a grant and was into computing these
possibilities, he WAS an atheist... and that is a true
story!


Must have read Oolon Coolophid's "Well That About Wraps It Up For God"...

*That's* HHTTG.

The whole subject of creationism is nicely dealt with in
the first HHTG book, as part of the explanation of the
Babelfish. That was long before the current antiscience
inquisition..

In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look
either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels
(intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like
planet)...

I just flat do not know what to think, it is all too
impossible...
perhaps the answers are out there...
X-Files-theme-plays-in-the-background

... or, perhaps there is a very simple explanation we just
have not
thought of--yet... any guess is as valid as another...

Well, the simplest answer is "All this comes from God".
Simple, to the
point, and the great thing is that once you accept this, you
need look
no further. You are her to worship him, and that is all the
knowledge needed.


I've got a two-liner that works for me:

Science is the how
God is the why

Why? Insecurity that causes God to create you so that you
worship him
because he needs worship, and if you don't he will torture you for eternity?

That's one explanation. It's not mine. I find most definitions
of "God" to be far too limited.


If you want more, if the one liner answer is not enough, I would
suggest that you add time to your equations of impossibility.


Also the size of the earth.

For some reason that reminds me of the natural "reactor that they found
in Africa. Seems that there was a concentration of Uranium ore that was
reacting a couple billion of years ago. Groundwater was acting as the
moderator. (at least the theory that sounds best to me)

The odds of that happening are pretty darn slight.

How do we know? We've only examined the planets of this solar system.
We've barely scratched the surface of this one. For all we know, there
are dozens - hundreds - thousands of such
uranium deposits deep in the earth.

So I guess God must have done it for some reason.

http://tinyurl.com/5wth8

No, it was the planet manufacturers on Magrathea.

As for your math professor, I wonder if he had the concept of
time on
the billion year scale? Almost no one does.


Worse, too many don't realize they don't know.

Well, when you want to be certain of things, you have to know what you don't know! ;^)

How is it that the human has eyes? An exquisite organ of sense to be
sure. But before we throw up our hands and say that it was too
complicated a structure to have simply come about by chance, we might
want to take a look at the facts.

Phototropism exists at the lowest levels of life. There are bacteria in
the ocean that adjust the level at which they "swim" by the amount of
ambient light falling on them. It is a pretty simple thing. Various
creatures make use of this in varying degrees of complexity, from simple
organs that react to light coming from different directions, to simple
lensed eyes, to multi lensed wonders that detect movement, to reflective
layers behind the sensing structure that allow sight at the
individual
photon level. As well as our eyes, which although wonderful,
are not at
the top of the list for acuity.


And in the oceans are creatures who have lost the ability
to see, because in their environment it's pretty useless.

Some forms of life have senses we don't - like migratory birds that can
sense the earth's magnetism.

But at it's root level, it *is* a simple thing. That's
phototropism. A
chemical reaction that would exist if there were no life to put it in.

That is just one case. The other senses are also similarly
simply
based. All based on detection of energy sources, and using
those sources
to extract information from the environment.

Just like looking at a modern automobile. While they look very
complicated, at heart, they are just a compilation of simple
machines.


They're also the end product of a long series of small developments.

This is in no way to say that life is not a wonderful and
amazing
thing. It is. It is a messy, complicated, unruly, terribly
imperfect yet
surprisingly resilient gastraphagus we have here.

And yet, some people look at it, and some throw their arms in
the air
and say that "It is so complex! It could only have been created by
God!". While I look at it and say "It is so complex! I doubt
any God
would create such a mess when under his total control, a simple life form could be created".


I doubt that anyone on this planet really knows. We're just at
the beginning in so many ways. Consider how recently things like
infectious disease, vaccines and basic metabolism were understood.
And yet some people think they are qualified to say what is "too
complex"? That's almost funny.

It is an admission of failure. Or hubris. Or a strange
combination of
both. If something is too complex for someone to understand,
that does
no mean it is too complex for me to understand. And vice versa.

Exactly.

Next thing they'll do is want to ban "Inherit the Wind"

It is worth study with an open mind. When you work on the
billion year
time scale, all sorts of possibilities exist.


Yup.

One more thing is unknown: Is the biology we know the only one
possible, or are there many possibilities, and Earth just has one of
them?

I think that the answer lies in the many metabolic pathways.
And I
believe the answer is that there are a lot of possibilities.

Earth has two distinct forms of life already. There is plenty
of room for more.

Which form are the tube worms found near volcanic vents in the deep
oceans?

73 de Jim, N2EY