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Pecuniary Interest????
NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 2, 2005--The Corporation for National and Community
Service (CNCS) will provide a $100,000 grant supplement to ARRL to support Amateur Radio's emergency communication operators in states affected by Hurricane Katrina. The grant will help to fund "Ham Aid," a new League program to support Amateur Radio volunteers deployed in the field in disaster-stricken areas. ARRL Chief Development Officer Mary Hobart, K1MMH, expressed gratitude to CNCS for its generous response. Ham Aid, she said, offers a unique opportunity to support individual radio amateurs helping to bridge the communication gap Hurricane Katrina has caused. "For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said. "We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing themselves in harm's way." In addition to providing emergency communication within and outside the affected areas, Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES) members and individual radio amateurs are supplementing the communication needs of emergency management and relief agencies, including the American Red Cross and The Salvation Army. Hobart said it's only due to the scope of the unprecedented and tragic Katrina disaster that CNCS agreed to help support dedicated Amateur Radio volunteers. "But," she added, "we'd like to think of this grant as a token of appreciation and a recognition of Amateur Radio's value in past emergencies and disasters, such as 9/11." Hobart says ARRL's Ham Aid program already has received some substantial private donations. Those and the CNCS grant, she said, provide a way for the League to "support our Field Organization as never before." The CNCS Ham Aid grant is effective for operations established and documented as of September 1, 2005, and the aid is earmarked for Hurricane Katrina deployments only at this point. Guidelines are being established that will permit volunteers who have been involved in bona fide field support operations on or after September 1 to provide communication support to apply for a reimbursement voucher on a per diem basis. Trained Amateur Radio operators will be on site for the duration of this disaster response, which could run into several weeks or months. "Many will leave their jobs and families and travel on their own expense, using their own equipment," Hobart points out. Corporation funds may also sustain the Ham Aid program and help to rebuild the emergency communications capabilities in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama to ensure that the Gulf Coast is prepared, should disaster strike again. The CNCS grant is an extension of ARRL's three year Homeland Security training grant, which has provided certification in emergency communication protocols to nearly 5500 Amateur Radio volunteer over the past three years. "CNCS grants helped make it possible for the ARRL to train America's hams and make them the best all-volunteer emergency radio service ever seen," Hobart said. "Now they are making it possible for the hams to use that training." |
"N9OGL" wrote "For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said. "We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing themselves in harm's way." I think the $100,000 grant should be redirected to victim needs. I'm sure it's strictly legal, but I'd personally not be comfortable accepting reimbursement for volunteer activities of this nature, even if the funds came from private donations or ARRL reserves and not from tax dollars. K0CKB and I have assembled a capable portable station, and we can provide our own living facilities and power (RV & generator) in case our help is needed. We might add additional diesel fuel capacity to increase our range, but certainly would not expect the government/ARRL to cover that expense. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter |
"an_old_friend" wrote I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams. That's true. But in this case there is no compensation for operation; rather expense reimbursement(food?/transportation?/lodging?). This would be similar to being given a plane ticket, food and lodging vouchers, and sent to provide your volunteer services, without any compensation for those services. That distinction covers the legalities which I'm sure both CNCS and ARRL lawyers have examined. All that said, at a more basic personal level I'd be uncomfortable taking this reimbursement, preferring to just let the expenses be part of my (tax deductible) contribution to the recovery effort. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this! Todd N9OGL |
"N9OGL" wrote "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for operating; it provides reimbursement for expenses. The distinction isn't all that subtle --- consider this: If the government gave you a plane ticket, lodged you in a hotel, and provided your meals so you could operate a station in the disaster area, would you consider this "compensation"? In this case, rather than provide those items "in kind", the government has made a grant which covers exactly those same expenses after the fact. I personally wish the money was spent on grants to actual victims, but I can't find anyone being paid "any money or other consideration for operating". 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Let us hope the newbies are smart enough to see the graft and corruption which has entered arrl (and been there growing for decades) and just say "HELL NO!" John On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:37:48 -0700, N9OGL wrote: NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 2, 2005--The Corporation for National and Community Service (CNCS) will provide a $100,000 grant supplement to ARRL to support Amateur Radio's emergency communication operators in states affected by Hurricane Katrina. The grant will help to fund "Ham Aid," a new League program to support Amateur Radio volunteers deployed in the field in disaster-stricken areas. ARRL Chief Development Officer Mary Hobart, K1MMH, expressed gratitude to CNCS for its generous response. Ham Aid, she said, offers a unique opportunity to support individual radio amateurs helping to bridge the communication gap Hurricane Katrina has caused. "For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said. "We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing themselves in harm's way." In addition to providing emergency communication within and outside the affected areas, Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES) members and individual radio amateurs are supplementing the communication needs of emergency management and relief agencies, including the American Red Cross and The Salvation Army. Hobart said it's only due to the scope of the unprecedented and tragic Katrina disaster that CNCS agreed to help support dedicated Amateur Radio volunteers. "But," she added, "we'd like to think of this grant as a token of appreciation and a recognition of Amateur Radio's value in past emergencies and disasters, such as 9/11." Hobart says ARRL's Ham Aid program already has received some substantial private donations. Those and the CNCS grant, she said, provide a way for the League to "support our Field Organization as never before." The CNCS Ham Aid grant is effective for operations established and documented as of September 1, 2005, and the aid is earmarked for Hurricane Katrina deployments only at this point. Guidelines are being established that will permit volunteers who have been involved in bona fide field support operations on or after September 1 to provide communication support to apply for a reimbursement voucher on a per diem basis. Trained Amateur Radio operators will be on site for the duration of this disaster response, which could run into several weeks or months. "Many will leave their jobs and families and travel on their own expense, using their own equipment," Hobart points out. Corporation funds may also sustain the Ham Aid program and help to rebuild the emergency communications capabilities in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama to ensure that the Gulf Coast is prepared, should disaster strike again. The CNCS grant is an extension of ARRL's three year Homeland Security training grant, which has provided certification in emergency communication protocols to nearly 5500 Amateur Radio volunteer over the past three years. "CNCS grants helped make it possible for the ARRL to train America's hams and make them the best all-volunteer emergency radio service ever seen," Hobart said. "Now they are making it possible for the hams to use that training." |
"N9OGL" wrote in message oups.com... : From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing : Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL : : Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment : : : "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating : your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime : directives of our serice: : : "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service : to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, : particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis : added) [97.1(a)] : : If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham : for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. : You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial : basis, period : You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. : The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or : material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" : [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so : on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." : : -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ As a matter of practical curiousness from an outside view, have you ability to afford to go there with your station for several weeks and pay your own life expenses? If so, why you have not done so? If not, would you volunteer to go if your government provided travel and food and shelter expenses? BGO -- "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." - Voltaire |
K=D8HB wrote: "an_old_friend" wrote I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams. That's true. But in this case there is no compensation for operation; ra= ther expense reimbursement(food?/transportation?/lodging?). This would be sim= ilar to being given a plane ticket, food and lodging vouchers, and sent to provid= e your volunteer services, without any compensation for those services. That distinction covers the legalities which I'm sure both CNCS and ARRL = lawyers have examined. All that said, at a more basic personal level I'd be uncomfortable taking this reimbursement, preferring to just let the expen= ses be part of my (tax deductible) contribution to the recovery effort. I am sure the Lawyers have looked at it. I also know that you can normaly find support for about anything in the body of legal precedent. But like Todd I find it troubleing when laid next to K1MAN =20 73, de Hans, K0HB |
K=D8HB wrote: "N9OGL" wrote "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for ope= rating; it provides reimbursement for expenses. but you cut the perant paragraph Hans being re qutoed below 97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." The distinction isn't all that subtle --- consider this: If the governme= nt gave you a plane ticket, lodged you in a hotel, and provided your meals so you= could operate a station in the disaster area, would you consider this "compensa= tion"? In this case, rather than provide those items "in kind", the government h= as made a grant which covers exactly those same expenses after the fact. based on what has been published by the ARRL for years yes I would say it was compensation. I have never thought that type of rule was proper, but I have and do feel that those are the rules I personally wish the money was spent on grants to actual victims, but I = can't find anyone being paid "any money or other consideration for operating". =20 73, de Hans, K0HB |
N9OGL wrote:
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: Specifically: (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; Never? Who said "never"? What is compensation? How about the public service event support where the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse? What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll have to do this some other way"? Is accepting that glass of water compensation? Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some club members. Is that compensation? "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] Of course. If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period No money should ever change hands. You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups newsletters. Is this in violation? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this! There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up. Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't some form of compensation. - Mike KB3EIA - |
an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote: N9OGL wrote: From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: Specifically: (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; Never? Who said "never"? the ARRL said so What is compensation? How about the public service event support where the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse? wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it certainly can be seen that way What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll have to do this some other way"? Is accepting that glass of water compensation? techinicaly yes Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some club members. Is that compensation? FD is a ham activity "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] Of course. If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period No money should ever change hands. You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get techinaly yes thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups newsletters. Is this in violation? not if we don't ask for them -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this! There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up. and the rules as written don't seem to allow it the ARRL has been pushing the view that it is forbidden. That these rules are IMO wrong alters not the facts of what the rules are Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't some form of compensation. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over night The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the rules currently forbid it wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams (like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham disaprove of I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier expenses" or word to that effect as it is is looks like graft and corupportion - Mike KB3EIA - |
"an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over night The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the rules currently forbid it wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams (like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham disaprove of I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier expenses" or word to that effect as it is is looks like graft and corupportion It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
K=D8HB wrote: "N9OGL" wrote "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for ope= rating; it provides reimbursement for expenses. My radios are expenses. |
Dee Flint wrote: "an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over night The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the rules currently forbid it wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams (like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham disaprove of I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier expenses" or word to that effect as it is is looks like graft and corupportion It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way. Those notes are from the ARRL who have boasted they take a more liberal view than the FCC Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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.... so, the general message here is, "Do as the FCC says--unless you are arrl--then you can do as you see fit. However, no one else (not even K1MAN) can do as the arrl does..." I'll admit it is a bit confusing... unless you are the arrl--then you know exactly what is going on--you are giving everyone a royal screwing and either they are too stupid to care--or too stupid to have ethics! John On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:40:50 -0700, N9OGL wrote: From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this! Todd N9OGL |
AOF:
Did I understand Dee's question correctly? Isn't what she asked, and I paraphrase here, "Where are your rose colored glasses?" John On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 17:02:11 -0700, an_old_friend wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over night The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the rules currently forbid it wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams (like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham disaprove of I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier expenses" or word to that effect as it is is looks like graft and corupportion - Mike KB3EIA - |
John Smith wrote: AOF: Did I understand Dee's question correctly? Isn't what she asked, and I paraphrase here, "Where are your rose colored glasses?" John IMO No what she said was "trust the ARRL they know what they are doing" that takes more than Rose colored glasses, more like CGI imaging glasses |
an_old_friend wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: N9OGL wrote: From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: Specifically: (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; Never? Who said "never"? the ARRL said so Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules. What is compensation? How about the public service event support where the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse? wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it certainly can be seen that way What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll have to do this some other way"? Is accepting that glass of water compensation? techinicaly yes Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some club members. Is that compensation? FD is a ham activity But I was a Ham who got about 20 sodas free of charge that I wouldn't have otherwise. Hey this years FD was around 10o degrees! 8^) "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] Of course. If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period No money should ever change hands. You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get techinaly yes thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups newsletters. Is this in violation? not if we don't ask for them What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities. It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them. But I can see it now....... Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of water at a public service event. 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: N9OGL wrote: From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: Specifically: (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; Never? Who said "never"? the ARRL said so Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules. well if they are incorrect there and they may be then they being very strange in endorsing it now cut "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] Of course. If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period No money should ever change hands. You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get techinaly yes thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups newsletters. Is this in violation? not if we don't ask for them What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities. It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them. I agree the rules are made for this occasion like many other rules in DHS, FEMA, etc many rules are showing just how out of touch the planing of the goverment is with needs of the people I find it suspious that the ARRL is taking part in this when they have published and pusshed the opinion that this ilegal for years I can remeber the Former Central Divison Director (can't remeber his name but he was from Springfield IL lecutureing some of us on the repeater when we were discussing this subject, and then showing up at the Ham club meeting to make sure we understood that that even that soda is techicaly illegal Major flip flop But I can see it now....... Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of water at a public service event. 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - - Mike KB3EIA - |
Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: N9OGL wrote: From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime directives of our serice: Specifically: (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; Never? Who said "never"? the ARRL said so Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules. What is compensation? How about the public service event support where the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse? wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it certainly can be seen that way What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll have to do this some other way"? Is accepting that glass of water compensation? techinicaly yes Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some club members. Is that compensation? FD is a ham activity But I was a Ham who got about 20 sodas free of charge that I wouldn't have otherwise. Hey this years FD was around 10o degrees! 8^) "Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis added) [97.1(a)] Of course. If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work. You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial basis, period No money should ever change hands. You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating. The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised" [97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)." What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get techinaly yes thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups newsletters. Is this in violation? not if we don't ask for them What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities. It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them. I agree the rules are not set up for this just like FEMA and DHS and other set of rules are not set up for this mess (katrina) I don't agree with the rules as written but they are the rules But I can see it now....... Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of water at a public service event. 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - - Mike KB3EIA - |
an_old_friend wrote: wrote: K=D8HB wrote: "N9OGL" wrote "You must never accept any money or other consideration for operati= ng your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the pri= me directives of our serice: I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for= operating; it provides reimbursement for expenses. My radios are expenses. as are My drill bits For punching hole in the walls A Better set of rules would allow some reasonable comp, and I would support it but that isn't the rules NOW People have been paying to have their 2M and 440 transmissions repeated for years, and all the OFs here are good with it. None are asking for a rules change. |
"an_old_friend" wrote in message ups.com... Dee Flint wrote: "an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... Mike Coslo wrote: an_old_friend wrote: I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule being a another matter Under certain circumstances it is. We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we will be compensated like the rest of the responders. Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances? It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over night The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the rules currently forbid it wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams (like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham disaprove of I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier expenses" or word to that effect as it is is looks like graft and corupportion It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way. Those notes are from the ARRL who have boasted they take a more liberal view than the FCC Dee D. Flint, N8UZE It seems like a simple statement rather than a boast. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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"N9OGL" wrote in message oups.com... NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 2, 2005--The Corporation for National and Community Service (CNCS) will provide a $100,000 grant supplement to ARRL to support Amateur Radio's emergency communication operators in states affected by Hurricane Katrina. Isn't that nice.... "For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said. Obviously this woman don't know just how cheap hams can be. They better have a great accounting system on hand and/or have the radios nailed down and/or etched with property and S/N tags else their gonna be up for sale on e-Bay in a few months! "We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing themselves in harm's way." Just put a big truck well stocked with *free* coffee and doughnuts and it will attract them like iron filings to an alinco magnet. (Been listening to 75M between all the traffic nets at night. Sounds like the musings in an all-white redneck bar from one end of the band to the other. How amusing and expected) |
"an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... John Smith wrote: AOF: Did I understand Dee's question correctly? Isn't what she asked, and I paraphrase here, "Where are your rose colored glasses?" John IMO No what she said was "trust the ARRL they know what they are doing" that takes more than Rose colored glasses, more like CGI imaging glasses Not at all. I read the ARRL statement and the FCC rules. I happen to agree that there is enough flexibility to allow meeting the travel expenses, food expenses for those who are going down. There is no intent to "make a buck". My point was that there is no reason to automatically assume that there is an intent to do wrong. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee Flint wrote:
"an_old_friend" wrote in message oups.com... John Smith wrote: AOF: Did I understand Dee's question correctly? Isn't what she asked, and I paraphrase here, "Where are your rose colored glasses?" John IMO No what she said was "trust the ARRL they know what they are doing" that takes more than Rose colored glasses, more like CGI imaging glasses Not at all. I read the ARRL statement and the FCC rules. I happen to agree that there is enough flexibility to allow meeting the travel expenses, food expenses for those who are going down. There is no intent to "make a buck". My point was that there is no reason to automatically assume that there is an intent to do wrong. and I at least have never said there was intent. but wrong can be done without intent but still the ARRL is flip floping on LONG held postition without much explaination Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Dee Flint wrote: "an_old_friend" wrote in message ups.com... cut It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way. Those notes are from the ARRL who have boasted they take a more liberal view than the FCC Dee D. Flint, N8UZE It seems like a simple statement rather than a boast. you are of course entitled to your opinion. By what right to seek to deny MINE? Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: Dee Flint wrote: Not at all. I read the ARRL statement and the FCC rules. I happen to agree that there is enough flexibility to allow meeting the travel expenses, food expenses for those who are going down. There is no intent to "make a buck". My point was that there is no reason to automatically assume that there is an intent to do wrong. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Years ago I participated in ham radio communications after a tornado cleaned out about half of the southern part of Witchta Fall, Tx. The kind folks of WF housed us in a church, provided sleeping facilities and fed us. Anyone think that was violating the rule of "pecuniary interest"? Yes in the sense written in the rules. Now those rules ought to be rewritten and so one but in real terms yes you according the publications of the ARRL. such a rule is stuppid will never be enforced but it a violation never the less, just as if I drive 60 in 55 zone I'll likely not be stoped and ticketed but I would still be breaking the law. |
Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: Years ago I participated in ham radio communications after a tornado cleaned out about half of the southern part of Witchta Fall, Tx. The kind folks of WF housed us in a church, provided sleeping facilities and fed us. Anyone think that was violating the rule of "pecuniary interest"? "an old friend" replied: Yes OK, folks, every one of you who accepted food or lodging in the course of participating in an emergency communications incident is guilty of violating FCC rules. If the Red Cross or Salvation Army (btw, why is there no Salvation Navy) provided you with some identification garment like a hat or t-shirt, you must return the garment to the issuing agency. If you have lost or damaged the garment you must reimburse the RC/SA for the fair market value of the garment. You should file amended state and federal tax returns accounting for the value of the freebie meals/lodging/refreshments/transportation which was provided to you in the course of your volunteer assignment, with copies to all FCC Commissioners who will review your fitness to continue to hold your Amateur Radio license. Or not. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Food, caps, tee-shirts, food, and bottle water is one thing, but money
is another. My point in all of this is K1MAN was fined by the FCC for Pecuniary Interest and now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE is going to do the samething. What go for one person should apply for all. The MAIN problem I see here is the definition of the term noncommercial, and seems that there is two tems on what noncommercial means. Todd N9OGL |
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:54:36 GMT, "KØHB"
wrote in t: crossposting snipped Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: Years ago I participated in ham radio communications after a tornado cleaned out about half of the southern part of Witchta Fall, Tx. The kind folks of WF housed us in a church, provided sleeping facilities and fed us. Anyone think that was violating the rule of "pecuniary interest"? "an old friend" replied: Yes OK, folks, every one of you who accepted food or lodging in the course of participating in an emergency communications incident is guilty of violating FCC rules. Are you talking to every ham? or just the fat, lazy, nacho-cheese addicted hero-wannabes that hang around this group? If the Red Cross or Salvation Army (btw, why is there no Salvation Navy) Ok, I'll bite: Why is there no Salvation Navy? provided you with some identification garment like a hat or t-shirt, you must return the garment to the issuing agency. If you have lost or damaged the garment you must reimburse the RC/SA for the fair market value of the garment. You should file amended state and federal tax returns accounting for the value of the freebie meals/lodging/refreshments/transportation which was provided to you in the course of your volunteer assignment, with copies to all FCC Commissioners who will review your fitness to continue to hold your Amateur Radio license. Or not. Seems to me that the rules were written that way for a reason. After all, how many times has someone offered services in exchange for "donations"? Happens all the time. Even the Red Cross has it's own definition of "reasonable compensation" when it comes to exec salaries and bonuses. I doubt that anyone will cry foul if such amenities are given, but they should certainly not be expected or anticipated, which is what will happen if the rules are changed to allow such exceptions. Besides, 'compensation' kinda takes a little weight out of the word "volunteer". ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
K=D8HB wrote: Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: Years ago I participated in ham radio communications after a tornado cleaned out about half of the southern part of Witchta Fall, Tx. The kind folks of WF housed us in a church, provided sleeping facilities a= nd fed us. Anyone think that was violating the rule of "pecuniary interes= t"? "an old friend" replied: Yes OK, folks, every one of you who accepted food or lodging in the course of participating in an emergency communications incident is guilty of violat= ing FCC rules. cut glad to see you agree (at last I mention where I make my cuts Hans quote Yes in the sense written in the rules. Now those rules ought to be rewritten and so one but in real terms yes you according the publications of the ARRL. such a rule is stuppid will never be enforced but it a violation never the less, just as if I drive 60 in 55 zone I'll likely not be stoped and ticketed but I would still be breaking the law. unquote It is still a violation even if no one will ever do anything about it your efforts at bad jokes not withstanding =20 Or not. =20 73, de Hans, K0HB |
"N9OGL" wrote now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE Todd, Up until this point, the conversation on this topic was reasoned and balanced. But you've chosen to resort to your habitual trash mouth mode, so you can find any further comments from me posted at http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy . With warmest kind wishes, de Hans, K0HB |
N9OGL wrote: Food, caps, tee-shirts, food, and bottle water is one thing, but money is another. My point in all of this is K1MAN was fined by the FCC for Pecuniary Interest and now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE is going to do the samething. What go for one person should apply for all. The MAIN problem I see here is the definition of the term noncommercial, and seems that there is two tems on what noncommercial means. I'll have agree wihth you where I think you realy go of the tracks is saying there are 2 standards, there are far more than that. the rules are enforced in arbitary manners based on personalities not on the public interests The ARRL can do most of what it wants becuase of its sheer size, and the facts it has the money and legal forces to make a better fight of it The FCC will try and make examples of those that are not liked like K1MAN who by the best accounts I have heard sounds like a jerk, not crimal to my mind Unless the ARRL is too but not a nice guy. The danger of such tactics is the camels nose effect, and like the Nazi's you start with folks that are not liked and then you move on to others and still others Not bashing Bush for this or Clinton or... but the general creeping influence of the people truely runing the country , the nameless faceless breaucrat, what Asimov called the "Greys" Todd N9OGL |
Dee Flint wrote:
Not at all. I read the ARRL statement and the FCC rules. I happen to agree that there is enough flexibility to allow meeting the travel expenses, food expenses for those who are going down. There is no intent to "make a buck". My point was that there is no reason to automatically assume that there is an intent to do wrong. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Years ago I participated in ham radio communications after a tornado cleaned out about half of the southern part of Witchta Fall, Tx. The kind folks of WF housed us in a church, provided sleeping facilities and fed us. Anyone think that was violating the rule of "pecuniary interest"? |
K=D8HB wrote: "N9OGL" wrote now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE Todd, Up until this point, the conversation on this topic was reasoned and bala= nced. But you've chosen to resort to your habitual trash mouth mode, so you can= find any further comments from me posted at http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy = =2E With warmest kind wishes, de Hans, K0HB yeah right balanced sure such advocates of free speech we have here |
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