Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is organization and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.

"TOM" wrote in message
...

Snipped



Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



In a case like Mark, is the benefit worth the expense.
Short answer = NO .

Ace = WH2T

"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The
idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't
work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is organization
and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally
trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less
important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the
amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

Why throw away that capability (HF) to put all the eggs in a repeater system
that can, does and likely will fail when most needed.

Furthermore I am trying to show you that once communications is established,
ham, FRS, CB, GMRS, whatever then how is this link sent further down the
line? Such as what happened recently on the Gulf Coast.

I.E. Red Cross requests amateur radio assistance. Hundreds go to their
help. They say we only want you for "shelter communications". VHF will do
fine. NO WAY TO PASS IT FURTHER DOWN THE LINE as in ....how to get commo
from Montgomery Red Cross to the shelters and back?
Ham Radio High Frequency on the ESTABLISHED ARRL National Traffic System
nets. Which were ready, willing, and able to do so.

It is NOT Amateur radios fault that the Red Cross apparently chose to sit on
their hands and NOT UTILIZE the system.

Dan/W4NTI

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:43 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The
idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't
work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is organization
and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally
trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less
important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the
amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

then why did it not carry it according to you
cut
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:43 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past
the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On
Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to
disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The
idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat
outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't
work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is organization
and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally
trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend
the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What
about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less
important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the
amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

then why did it not carry it according to you
cut

Whats the matter? You too stupid to read. That has already been responded
to. You fagot jerk.

Dan/W4NTI

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:32:33 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:43 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...
cut


Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

then why did it not carry it according to you
cut

Whats the matter? You too stupid to read. That has already been responded
to. You fagot jerk.

if you want (or if you don't want )as you seem to I can bring a nice
sample of your recent and past behavoir to the FBI no extra trouble
really

Dan/W4NTI


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Nobody believes your "I'm going to the FBI" lie, Marky. Give it up,
stupid.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:32:33 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:43 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI"
wrote:


"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...
cut


Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the
wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

then why did it not carry it according to you
cut

Whats the matter? You too stupid to read. That has already been
responded
to. You fagot jerk.

if you want (or if you don't want )as you seem to I can bring a nice
sample of your recent and past behavoir to the FBI no extra trouble
really

Dan/W4NTI


Oh I am so scarred Markey. What was that about you admitting to be a fagot,
and saying things that anyone would reasonable believe you were, or at least
want to be a child molester? Go ahead fagot and tell your FBI "contact" I
am sure they all need a laugh.

In other words....take your best shot....BUT be ready for the results.
Think YOU can handle that Markey?

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
.net...

"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past
the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On
Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to
disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The
idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat
outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't
work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is organization
and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally
trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend
the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What
about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less
important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the
amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

Why throw away that capability (HF) to put all the eggs in a repeater
system
that can, does and likely will fail when most needed.

Furthermore I am trying to show you that once communications is
established,
ham, FRS, CB, GMRS, whatever then how is this link sent further down the
line? Such as what happened recently on the Gulf Coast.

I.E. Red Cross requests amateur radio assistance. Hundreds go to their
help. They say we only want you for "shelter communications". VHF will
do
fine. NO WAY TO PASS IT FURTHER DOWN THE LINE as in ....how to get commo
from Montgomery Red Cross to the shelters and back?
Ham Radio High Frequency on the ESTABLISHED ARRL National Traffic System
nets. Which were ready, willing, and able to do so.

It is NOT Amateur radios fault that the Red Cross apparently chose to sit
on
their hands and NOT UTILIZE the system.

Dan/W4NTI

You make valid points... Why is amateur radio so dependent upon the Red
Cross? Heck, looking back over my ham experience seemingly all the Red
Cross provided was a place to put a repeater and have emergency power. To
be honest... the Red Cross screwed us in NO---perhaps we had an image that
was lacking. In that case we ought to provide a service to some other
organization/s. I don't know where the future lies for the amateur service.
The numbers (of hams) just don't stack up against the numbers that can be
equipped with license free radios or radios that require a simple operating
permit. You can be sure if non-hams can get organized and provide a needed
service an important part of what justifies the amateur service will no
longer exist with the consequence that any leadership roles provided by the
amateur service will evaporate.

Perhaps this will happen anyway. We've watched the amateur service slowly
being de-regulated. A time may come where present day Amateur, FRS, MURS,
GMRS... will all become part of, say, the 'citizens communications service'.

You mention HF allocations as being a strong point for the amateur service;
however, I don't think that long haul communications are necessary for the
bulk of emergency communications---these disasters are local in scope. To
my way of thinking if anyone needs to communicate over long distances it
will be primary relief organizations and they can do that over satellite or
their own HF networks, besides, landlines generally remain
intact---providing an access point somewhere. I find the Australian VKS-737
an interesting example of what non-hams (CB) can do with five HF channels
http://www.vks737.on.net/ . Additionally, my experiences in the Caribbean
have made me become aware of how non-hams, who are boaters, can create
highly organized and effective communications networks using the HF maritime
allocations.

Discussion on the topic can hurt.

"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
.net...

"TOM" wrote in message
...

Dan/W4NTI wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]
I wonder how this FRS service with toy radio's is going to talk past
the
end
of their block? Oh with that useless ham stuff? On
Vhf/Uhf.....uh....Oh
I
get it, FRS and V/UHF ham radio will be the emergency channel and
then
carrier pigeon will take care of the long haul stuff.

One thing about it....Ya just cain't fix stupid.

Dan/W4NTI

It's already being done... CERT http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/
communities are using FRS to organize their efforts in reponse to
disaster
preparedness or simply community watch and its working quite well. The
idea
that a ham is needed to supply communications is somewhat
outdated---hams
have out-geeked themselves. If a CERT member has a radio that doesn't
work
just throw it away and get another. What really matters is
organization
and
team skills and communities have plenty of indviduals professionally
trained
in all manner of skills besides a token ham or two. Some CERT teams
are
guarded about disclosing their capabilities and SOP...

Besides, who's to say that repeaters won't become available to extend
the
range of FRS radios---if there is a need anything is possible. What
about
GMRS? Take a look at what the Aussies have done with their UHF CB
allocations http://www.alphalink.com.au/~parkerp/cb.htm

The issue with the future of FRS-type communications should be
carefully
considered. I think that amateur long-haul coms are becoming less
important
compared to short range communications networks---especially within
communties. Considering the ease of getting FRS communications the
amateur
service has little to offer---unless amateurs can re-invent themselves.

Maybe... just maybe... stupid can be fixed.



There is nothing at all wrong with using FRS, GMRS or any of the citizen
accessible radio systems. But there is NO REASON to re-invent the wheel.

Ham radio can and does provide long haul and short haul communications.

Why throw away that capability (HF) to put all the eggs in a repeater
system
that can, does and likely will fail when most needed.

Furthermore I am trying to show you that once communications is
established,
ham, FRS, CB, GMRS, whatever then how is this link sent further down the
line? Such as what happened recently on the Gulf Coast.

I.E. Red Cross requests amateur radio assistance. Hundreds go to their
help. They say we only want you for "shelter communications". VHF will
do
fine. NO WAY TO PASS IT FURTHER DOWN THE LINE as in ....how to get commo
from Montgomery Red Cross to the shelters and back?
Ham Radio High Frequency on the ESTABLISHED ARRL National Traffic System
nets. Which were ready, willing, and able to do so.

It is NOT Amateur radios fault that the Red Cross apparently chose to sit
on
their hands and NOT UTILIZE the system.

Dan/W4NTI

You make valid points... Why is amateur radio so dependent upon the Red
Cross? Heck, looking back over my ham experience seemingly all the Red
Cross provided was a place to put a repeater and have emergency power. To
be honest... the Red Cross screwed us in NO---perhaps we had an image that
was lacking. \

I don't know what the problem is with the Red Cross. But I remember about
20 years
ago that the local club and the Red Cross seperated. Also about that time,
I believe
Birmingham Al club did also. We ended affiliating with the Salvation Army.
At that
point I moved out of the area and lost track of clubs and such.

I talked with the ARRL on the subject. And there IS a memorandum of
understanding.
Apparantly most to all at RC don't read or are unable to comprehend. OR are
just
plain ignorant. Take your pick. Bottom line is THEY dropped the ball.

In that case we ought to provide a service to some other
organization/s. I don't know where the future lies for the amateur
service.
The numbers (of hams) just don't stack up against the numbers that can be
equipped with license free radios or radios that require a simple
operating
permit. You can be sure if non-hams can get organized and provide a
needed
service an important part of what justifies the amateur service will no
longer exist with the consequence that any leadership roles provided by
the
amateur service will evaporate.

A lot of hams are doing just that. SATERN seems to be the choice. And of
course
the ARRL ARES setup.


Perhaps this will happen anyway. We've watched the amateur service slowly
being de-regulated. A time may come where present day Amateur, FRS, MURS,
GMRS... will all become part of, say, the 'citizens communications
service'.

You mention HF allocations as being a strong point for the amateur
service;
however, I don't think that long haul communications are necessary for the
bulk of emergency communications---these disasters are local in scope.

Katrina changed that mind set Tom. HF provided a very important role in
establishing
workable commo. I spent a good week either being directly involved or
monitoring
HF networks on various bands. I will elaborate on the Alabama connection to
it all.

We operated mainly on our normal net frequency of 3965. Also on 40 meters
individual
operators helped out on various 40 meter frequencies. Not immediatly but
very soon
after the magnitude was determined on the massive damage the Red Cross
established
via AMATEUR RADIO operators, under the ARRL Section Manager, Greg W4OZK
a network linking the shelters in the disaster area with Red Cross
Headquarters in
Montgomery. HF Ham stations were co-located in shelters and Red Cross areas
in the
disaster area. Most of the intercommunication was done on 75 and 40 meters.

I think you will see a change of the attitude that keeps communications
needs to a local
area. It may NOT be needed too often. But it does need to be planned and
TRAINED
for. That is what the National Traffic System should be oriented towards
now a days.

Just my opinion there Tom.



To
my way of thinking if anyone needs to communicate over long distances it
will be primary relief organizations and they can do that over satellite
or
their own HF networks, besides, landlines generally remain
intact---providing an access point somewhere.

But Tom there WAS nothing that worked. As Hams like to keep reminding
everyone....We are the backup system. When everything else fails, ham
radio
will be able to communicate. Not because it is so structured. But just the
opposite...because it is NOT so structured, restricted or controlled.

The FCC had to issue blanket approvals for the commercial folks to even
attempt to inter-link and communicate.

All the hams needed was to know where they were needed. And thats the
facts.


I find the Australian VKS-737
an interesting example of what non-hams (CB) can do with five HF channels
http://www.vks737.on.net/ . Additionally, my experiences in the Caribbean
have made me become aware of how non-hams, who are boaters, can create
highly organized and effective communications networks using the HF
maritime
allocations.

Discussion on the topic can hurt.



I'll read about that Australian thing. I had not heard of it till now. And
tell us of the
Caribbean experiences. I am open to any and all good thought on how to make
EMCOM
work better. Except from that nitwit Markie that is.

Dan/W4NTI