"Ghost writer" wrote in
:

I didn't run that fast. I have no problem with the police motorcade or
escorts or whatever they refer to them as, or black wreaths, or black
bands over the badge, I simply make the point that if police or
firefighters feel that their jobs are too dangerous, quit and get
another job.

I also feel that worship of police is the wrong thing for society, since
their constraints on our behavior is what makes the police necessary to
a large degree. In other words, we are not allowed to defend ourselves,
or at least discouraged from doing such using lethal means. If we do,
even when justified, we will likely be arrested, and processed, and
hopefully acquitted. Contrast that to the increasing number of cases of
police shooting unarmed citizens, (someone reached for their wallet in
N.Y., and was shot 19 times (of 41 shots fired), one of the shots
piercing the foot from bottom to top, indicating that the person was
lying down at the point that the shot was fired, i.e., he died after
being hit the first 12 times or so and dropped like a rock, yet the
police continued to shoot at a man armed only with a wallet.) These cops
are put on paid leave, then subsequently aquited.

http://www.courttv.com/trials/diallo/index.html

"Officers cleared in Diallo shooting
After 23 hours of deliberations over three days, an Albany jury found
all four officers not guilty of all charges in connection with the
shooting of Amadou Diallo. The Feb. 25, 2000, verdict sparked protests
from supporters of the family, lawmakers and the Rev. Al Sharpton."

http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9902/05/police.shooting/

http://www.refuseandresist.org/resis...9nypdkill.html

These are not the people to be worshipped. Their past indicated
problems. All officers are not good people.

NO ACCOUNTABILITY. They wantonly kill, they get a vacation, they get
back pay, and they get their former positions.

These are not the kind of people to worship.

http://www.courttv.com/archive/natio...o/autopsy.html

Read the autopsy report, oops, the officers made a simple mistake, they
deprived an unarmed man of his life. **** happens.

These are not the kind of people to be worshipped.

Support (not worship) honest, hard working, well tempered officers. They
exist, by the legions. Oppose the kind of officers described above.
Demand that your local police (via your city government) purge this kind
of riffraff from their ranks. Don't make the mistake of becoming
infatuated with the unfettered support of law enforcement.
Accountability is the answer to assure that your friends and relatives
survive those inevitable encounters with the law. You wouldn't want your
wife or daughter pulled over by the likes of those reprobate officers
from N.Y. (those described above, not all N.Y. Officers)

Regards.






Oh, hit and run, eh????? Well, being a firefighter and previous medic,
I DON'T KNOW. I didn't make those rules. Maybe an old timer can answer
that. I'm too young to know why that tradition started. I feel
soldiers have the same rights as well! They're defending our honor and
freedoms. G.W.

"Frank" wrote in
news:01c3ab23$4c84c300$0125250a@scpubymccaxpczis:

I don't believe that it is that simple. I know the danger is there, I
just choose to believe that I can manage it. Gambling with a hedged bet,
the hedge being assiduous attention to safety and procedures. Working
with "greens" (uncomfortable clothing meeting fire resistance
standards), respirator or breathing air (SCBA), metatarsal shoes, safety
glasses, fall harnesses, gloves, and hard hat.

I could take my pay up with my employer, and I'd be informed that I have
the option of quitting, just like police officers do.

The same is true of the police. They don't believe that they will be the
ones shot. Hopefully they won't. They hedge their bets with training and
discipline. The Pittsburgh Police are supposed to be some of the highest
paid officers in the nation. I don't believe that with major police
departments, the pay is so low that we need to woo the officers with
feigned attention. If the pay is so low, what attracts people to become
police anyway? Too many times the wrong thing attracts them. Power.

Of the police, let me say, I do not have the fortitude to see what they
see. The end results of rape, domestic violence, murder, auto accidents,
broken families, alcoholism, senior citizens living alone and calling
the police in the middle of the night from fear of a noise (the police
attempting to comfort such people), the ravages of drugs, mentally
disturbed poeple, suicides, abandoned children, etc. etc. etc.

I do not have the courage to do their jobs. In some ways it's easier to
risk your own life than it is to see others in the throes of loosing
theirs.

Even though, Worship should be reserved for God, not cops.

Of your Patriotism angle, read the following:

Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, speaking at the Nuremberg
Trials following WWII

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a
farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it
is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers For lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."

By this one can infer that blind patriotism essentially makes people
chumps. Blind cop worship does the same thing.

Regards



Public servants are given the extra attention to help compensate for
their low pay. The public does not want to pay them more and they
don't want them to quit, thus the extra attention. With other
dangerous jobs, such as "Siloliquy's", the pay is not usually
determined by the public. In those jobs if they think their pay
doesn't compensate for the danger they should take it up with their
employer.

Their is also the patriotism angle that we saw with this last war. The
public can be made to appreciate the actions of the government more by
commending our heroes -- their sons and daughters.

It is nothing more than a tool.

Frank

Why is it that cops, firemen, and EMTs feel that they have some kind of
patent on working dangerous jobs?

I've never thought police work or EMS work was particularly dangerous...I've
done both, but firefighters definitely do have a tough and dangerous job.

Certainly no patent on being dangerous of course...I've heard that the Alaskan
crab fishermen have the truly dangerous job.

I also work at a dangerous job, and I,
like any of you, have the same option. If I don't like the danger, I can
quit.

Absolutely.

You see, I work in heavy industry, around voltages such as 13,800, 4160,
2140, and 480. At these voltages, when things go wrong, people die.
I
also work around gas streams that are the byproducts of the process. I
work around Hydrogen Sulfide, Hydrogen Cyanide, Benzene, and the like.
One breath of the first 2 gasses instantly renders you unconscious.

More
may render you dead. The last is quite carcinogenic. Die now or later, if
you will. (an expression, not a threat).
People are crushed, burned, they fall, things fall on them, they are
electrocuted, they are gassed. I think, of a working population of about
1200, we average 1.5 deaths a year, the injury rate is quite high, the
injuries are not uncommonly serious, many debilitating. People develop
cancer, I saw a 33 year old man die of cancer of everything. (liver,
bones, pancreas, etc.), he had been married only a couple of years and
recently had a child.

Granted. Sounds like an environment filled with hazards.

On the other hand, I imagine you are well paid for your work, and have an
excellent union, and doubtless an excellent benefits package.

I don't think any of your colleagues were killed in ambush, or need to be
concerned with frivilous lawsuits, or are required to pay for their own safety
equipment or training. Or have to work two or possibly three jobs to maintain
their families. Or have a bunch of untrained people looking over their
shoulders and videotaping them as they go about their tasks. I wonder how many
of your colleagues blew their brains out or OD'd or drank themselves due to job
stress? I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

The dead from my plant and industry share something in common with dead
police and firemen. They are dead. They died violently, they died
unexpectedly.

Granted.

The problem with this endless adulation of the
public service section is that it masked the courageousness of the
citizens that contributed as much or more than the police and firemen.

I think your perspective is skewed. The cops and firefighters that were killed
on 9-11-01 *knew* they were going into harm's way, and many of them knew they
wouldn't be coming back. They chose to risk their lives to save others, if
possible, and they sure as hell didn't do it for a paycheck or 'adulation'.

Likely you will take umbrage with this post, so to save myself the
recriminations, I have killfiled it.

Oh well.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

The same is true of the police. They don't believe that they will be the
ones shot. Hopefully they won't. They hedge their bets with training and
discipline.

LOL...my years of training and experience didn't prevent a young man from
fracturing my lower spine with his Ford Expedition last year when he tried to
kill me. Of course he is suing me now for 'false arrest', which is amusing,
considering his propensities and record.

BTW, I'm not working, I've lost my job, and my savings are just about used up.
I can always sue my former employer if I have a beef about it, but what's the
use?

If the pay is so low, what attracts people to become
police anyway?

This is one of those questions that is truthfully answered this way: if you
have to be told the answer, you'd never understand it anyway. Of course, some
people become public servants to serve their communities, some people like the
action, and others have a need to help in whatever way they can. Remember that
there are *lots* of reserve police officers, fire fighters, and EMTs who serve
*without* any pay or benefits.

Too many times the wrong thing attracts them. Power.

Power? Are you serious? Are you familiar with the Garrity Rule? No, it's not
worth explaining all this to you, you obviously have some sort of problem with
authority figures, and it's not up to me to address that issue. But if you
sincerely think that people become cops for 'power', you really need some
reality.

Worship should be reserved for God, not cops.

LOL...where do you get these notions? Cops...worshipped? shaking head in
disbelief.

Blind cop worship does the same thing.

Wow...you are really interesting.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

Soliloquy .. .

^ If the pay is so low, what attracts people to become
^ police anyway?

The glory. The recognition as a hero. Just look at the statement that someone
else made in response to your message:

"How many lives did you save last week?"

That is what attracts most people to dangerous jobs. If the money isn't there
then it is for the glory. So we give them their glory.

Frank

I too worked as a civil servant, for a State agency as a matter of
fact. However, I didn't work as a firefigher or police officer--I
was a highway maintenance worker for my state's Department of
Transportation.

People here have mentioned how dangerous that firefighting and police
work are, and yes, I do agree. But, have you ever thought about how
dangerous highway maintenance work is. Not only is your health
threatened by the "everyday" work of things such as: getting squashed
by heavy equipment (2 years ago, a collegue was squashed to death when
a 20000 pound dump truck accidentally backed over him), injuring
yourself with the physically demanding work, risk of skin cancer, and
the list goes on and on, just like other jobs...

But, how many of you have ever stood in a highway lane while literally
hundreds, if not thousands, of vehicles pass by you at arms-length
distances, traveling at speeds of 65-80+ mile per hour! Traffic is
going by so often and so fast, that you as a person cannot keep track
of it.

And I've heard about job recognition, especially when a worker is
killed in the line of duty. It is a proven fact, in my State at least,
a highway worker has, by far, a more dangerous job--there are far more
highway workers injured and killed on the job than police and fire
personnel combined. Here's a thought: in my State, when a State
police officer is killed in the line of duty, he/she has a HUGE
State-sponsored memorial, and among other things, has an entire
freeway named after him/her. However, what does a highway worker get
when killed in the line of duty? His/her name included to the growing
list of a tiny 2 feet by 2 feet plaque, and that's pretty much it! No
memorial, no mention of his name in the news media...

So, these kinds of civil servants receive very little, if any,
recognition for how they put their life on the line. Not to mention
their tiny salaries, compared to the other "dangerous" civil servant
jobs out there. Public servant salaries are public record. Check
the websites of any public agency--you'll see. And yes, they do save
literally hundreds, if not thousands of lives every day (in a round
about way, of course). Would you survive if your car was swallowed up
by a 8-foot-deep sink hole while going 70 mph down the freeway? Heck,
who do you thing is usually the first on scene of a freeway crash?
Highway maintenance workers. Numerous times, I was the first on scene
to provide life-saving methods to injured persons...

But, the only public recognition we get is that "one-figered
greeting", or the blare of the horn, or even persons stopping to
threaten you. All for making them just a bit late while providing
them with an efficient means to drive their prescious vehicles.

Every job has its perks and negatives...

othanks (James S. Prine) wrote in
:

I read the post on Highway workers, if you read this (the poster of the
topic), your point is well taken.

We are ambushed, just by non-human things. A co-worker, working in the
same place that I had all day, with the exception that the mechanics had
removed an inspection plate to examine a valve stem, took a breath and
fell to the grating (floor), unconscious. The supervisor wasn't sure
what to do in the next few seconds, not sure if the man was even
breathing. Fortunately, the man began snoring (a good sign of life), and
in about 40 seconds, he awoke, looking around, saying "I'm ok". He had
fallen with his legs bent behind him. Had he not fallen to the grating
and over the side he would have plummeted to his death.

Another co-worker had gone out early in the morning to do his rounds,
and he noticed a leak (fluids) into a containment area. When he
attempted to start a steam siphon to clear the contaminated water from
the area, he instantly fell unconscious, falling off a small wall onto
the street. Had he of fallen into the containment area, he would be
dead. He laid there unconscious until the gas service (they check the
level of toxic gasses throughout the plant) men found him. He was
transported to a PGH area hospital, and remained there for several days.
His face was quite a mess, as he fell off the wall while standing up. Is
an ambush any worse than this, especially if the victim had died?

I was at work one day when a storage tank blew up, casting its top (30
feet in diameter), over the side onto the roadway. A man routinely needs
to go to the top of the tanks as part of his rounds. If he had been
killed, would he have been any less dead than an officer killed my some
maniac? Would it have been any less expected? Is it not an ambush of
sorts? The only difference is that with an industrial accident, there
will be no backup support, no SWAT team. You run, hope to escape the
destruction, and wait for it to stabilize before returning. When your
buddy gets connected to 13800 volts (yes, it happened at my plant,
though it wasn't my buddy), how does one extricate him? One doesn't. You
watch, hope he doesn't completely fry, then get help. The man I speak of
lived and returned to work. Another was carrying a pipe that connected
to a 69000 Volt line, blowing through his buckle and down his legs,
blowing his shoes off. He lived but was unable to return to work, his
internal organs having been too seriously injured. My co-workers, being
with him, ran when it first occurred. After obtaining safe distance,
they realized that their buddy was involved, and returned to him when
the sparks were over. No bulletproof vest would help.

Ambush by human means or by mechanical means is the same if the
recipient is dead or crippled.

Videotaping, an excellent topic. With the police fetish of taping the
perpetrator, and with the availability of small cameras, I feel that
police should be required to wear cameras when entering homes or
businesses, to preclude those unfounded claims of brutality. If the
actions are honorable and according to procedure, why not tape them?
This would certainly help to reveal the true way that the police are
treated, and help to show the public how difficult their job is.

Of course, there is always the possibility that they don't want the
video tapes since they (the tapes) show what abuses the police are
capable of. I witnessed the police here after they pulled over a stolen
car that contained several black youths. The black youths had been
pointing what turned out to be an air pistol at pedestrians as they
drove around. The police had the youths on the ground, being held at gun
point while that were cuffed. I have no problem with this. What I had a
problem with is that the police, after securing the youths in the police
car, continued with an inspection of the stolen car. An officer,
noticing me standing relatively near, looked at me, and I nodded a
hello. He loudly said "where do you live", and I indicated the next
street. He then yelled "then go back to where you live". Nevertheless, I
moved about 20 feet, then turned and continued to watch. Three officers
were pulling packages out of the trunk, and ripping wrapping paper off
them, it was Christmas time and whoever owned the car must recently have
made purchases. They were looking for stuff to steal. Hell, if they
found anything of value, they could blame the black kids for stealing
it. The car should have had a cursory inspection then been impounded in
toto. They were actually peeking around the trunk periodically to see if
anyone was watching. There was another officer in front of the stolen
car, they need not fear for their safety, no crowd had gathered. They
were paranoid that someone would see them, maybe that someone would FILM
them.

How about this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in582492.shtml
Police raid a high school in South Carolina, hold the students at gun
point, arrest others, used canines to terrorize the students, and find
nothing. Police need to use their brains. As they are programmed by
indoctrination that we are all "their enemies", they are ever willing to
do such atrocities as these. Even in Israel, some of the soldiers have
enough chutzpah to violate orders and refuse immoral commands. Too many
police use the excuse that they are just doing as ordered. No one has
the right to violate others in such a manner. They didn't find anything.
What assholes. Brave armed men with crew cuts and dogs, corralling the
evil teenagers. And you think that these types of schmucks deserve
adulation? This was truly sickening. I can see why police abhor cameras.

I grew up with a kid whose father was a commander on the PGH fire
department (his father brought the command car home with him in the
evening, easy to confirm his status). The kid took me through the house
to show me all the stuff his father had stolen from fires that he had
been at. Stereos and the like. All kinds of stuff, piles of it. I guess
the firemen feel that insurance will pay for it, but if one doesn't have
insurance, and if the stuff was in such excellent condition to be
stolen, perhaps they denied the people of items that they may direly
have wished to have. Maybe handling all those fire damaged (not) items
helped him buy that Corvette that he owned, according to you they get
paid very little.

Yes, we have had suicides, yes the job is stressful. Have you tried
breathing chemicals all day? Odors so bad that when one is sick with the
flu, its intolerable. Noise, have you ever listened to a dozen 1500 HP
motors and related equipment running all day, or massive steam leaks?
Have you worked 16 hours a day 6 days a week for several weeks (I
haven't but many have been compelled to). We have had people apply and
get jobs here, the jobs pay reasonably well, only to quit on the spot
then they are toured around the plant. It's too frightening for some.

My relative on the Pittsburgh Police said that he worked harder on his
first night as a PGH cop than he did the entire time he was a borough
cop. What about all the small time cops? Do they automatically get the
same adulation without the work?


Of the following, none of them knew that the building was going to fall.
Yes, firemen brave truly dangerous situations rather routinely, and yes
they entered the building, but they also left as quickly as the others
when the first building toppled. By concentrating on the valor of the
firemen, we omit recognition of the citizens that also did truly heroic
things.

I suggest that you and others support the police, the ones worthy of
support, and leave the worship for church.

Oh Well,

Regards


I think your perspective is skewed. The cops and firefighters that
were killed on 9-11-01 *knew* they were going into harm's way, and
many of them knew they wouldn't be coming back. They chose to risk
their lives to save others, if possible, and they sure as hell didn't
do it for a paycheck or 'adulation'.

Likely you will take umbrage with this post, so to save myself the
recriminations, I have killfiled it.

Oh well.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

But, how many of you have ever stood in a highway lane while literally
hundreds, if not thousands, of vehicles pass by you at arms-length
distances, traveling at speeds of 65-80+ mile per hour!

I have, and I've never liked the experience. I well remember one afternoon,
while working a scene, that some moron sideswiped me close enough to tear my
uniform pants and knock me a few feet back from the point of impact. I was
*not* amused.

On another occasion I had my foot crushed, but managed (with difficulty) to
complete my assignment before I sought medical help.

LOL...on *another* occasion I was shot in the leg while working a protective
detail at a 'peace march'; later, my supervisor asked why I was walking 'kinda
funny' and I showed him the wound, and he chewed me out for not reporting it
earlier. No big deal.

Here's a thought: in my State, when a State
police officer is killed in the line of duty, he/she has a HUGE
State-sponsored memorial, and among other things, has an entire
freeway named after him/her.

In Louisiana, I know of a State officer who was run down and killed by a drunk
driver, and he got no memorial whatsoever.

I remember this because I used to work with him. His name was Sgt. Gilbert
Mast, and his killer, Josh Gimelstob, got the usual 'slap on the wrist'
punishment.

You can still read the specifics of that case on the Internet; I know of yet
another Louisiana officer who was stabbed to death in the line of duty, but
can't find anything on the 'net in reference to it.

Perhaps different States honor their personnel in different ways.

Not to mention
their tiny salaries, compared to the other "dangerous" civil servant
jobs out there. Public servant salaries are public record. Check
the websites of any public agency--you'll see.

So, what's your beef? In my last job, as a State police officer, I had not
only the 'regular' duties, but also had to take on the additional
responsibilities of Crime Scene Investigator, Intelligence Officer, and
High-Tech Crime Investigator, as well as Training Officer.

I got paid for one job, of course, and yes, as you see from public records, I
was paid the princely sum of $1367 a month. This was in 2002, by the way.

Plus of course I had to supply my own sidearm, ammunition, etc.

I couldn't afford the medical insurance package, so I did without it.

Yes indeed, all that 'big money' and glory out there, ripe for the taking.

Heck,
who do you thing is usually the first on scene of a freeway crash?

The drunk driver and the victim?

Every job has its perks and negatives...

That's something we both agree on g.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

Yes public servants can quit when faced with possible death and so can you.
The big difference is that they don't!
In private industry you got any brains you would tell your supervisor that
there is a likelihood of you getting injured or killed and refuse to do the
job until it was safe.

If you call and tell the police someone is in your house with a gun what do
you expect them to do?
What would you do if your neighbor called you some night and told you that?
Would you run over there and confront the intruder or would you tell him to
call the police?

I think the big difference is that our public servants are expected not to
avoid or run from dangerous situations.
In industry OSHA demands you stop work if you think there is any danger of
death or injury.

When was the last time you walked into a bank or store thinking you might
get shot?
Every time a police officer in uniform walks in one he damm well better be
thinking just that.

Hope this helps explain just a few of the differences between their job and
yours.

William Lee


"Soliloquy" wrote in message
4...
othanks (James S. Prine) wrote in
:

Why is it that cops, firemen, and EMTs feel that they have some kind of
patent on working dangerous jobs? I also work at a dangerous job, and I,
like any of you, have the same option. If I don't like the danger, I can
quit.

Clifton T. Sharp Jr. told the group:

That was me. Never a cop, but I did do volunteer emergency services work,
and I didn't do it for glory or hero worship. I've worked with lots of
cops while doing it, and I never met one who was a cop for glory or
heroism.

Neither have I. I've always thought that if you wanted to be a 'hero' or
demanded 'hero worship', then by all means go into sports, not public service.

And Mr. Sharp, thank you for your service.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/