othanks (James S. Prine) wrote in
:

I read the post on Highway workers, if you read this (the poster of the
topic), your point is well taken.

We are ambushed, just by non-human things. A co-worker, working in the
same place that I had all day, with the exception that the mechanics had
removed an inspection plate to examine a valve stem, took a breath and
fell to the grating (floor), unconscious. The supervisor wasn't sure
what to do in the next few seconds, not sure if the man was even
breathing. Fortunately, the man began snoring (a good sign of life), and
in about 40 seconds, he awoke, looking around, saying "I'm ok". He had
fallen with his legs bent behind him. Had he not fallen to the grating
and over the side he would have plummeted to his death.

Another co-worker had gone out early in the morning to do his rounds,
and he noticed a leak (fluids) into a containment area. When he
attempted to start a steam siphon to clear the contaminated water from
the area, he instantly fell unconscious, falling off a small wall onto
the street. Had he of fallen into the containment area, he would be
dead. He laid there unconscious until the gas service (they check the
level of toxic gasses throughout the plant) men found him. He was
transported to a PGH area hospital, and remained there for several days.
His face was quite a mess, as he fell off the wall while standing up. Is
an ambush any worse than this, especially if the victim had died?

I was at work one day when a storage tank blew up, casting its top (30
feet in diameter), over the side onto the roadway. A man routinely needs
to go to the top of the tanks as part of his rounds. If he had been
killed, would he have been any less dead than an officer killed my some
maniac? Would it have been any less expected? Is it not an ambush of
sorts? The only difference is that with an industrial accident, there
will be no backup support, no SWAT team. You run, hope to escape the
destruction, and wait for it to stabilize before returning. When your
buddy gets connected to 13800 volts (yes, it happened at my plant,
though it wasn't my buddy), how does one extricate him? One doesn't. You
watch, hope he doesn't completely fry, then get help. The man I speak of
lived and returned to work. Another was carrying a pipe that connected
to a 69000 Volt line, blowing through his buckle and down his legs,
blowing his shoes off. He lived but was unable to return to work, his
internal organs having been too seriously injured. My co-workers, being
with him, ran when it first occurred. After obtaining safe distance,
they realized that their buddy was involved, and returned to him when
the sparks were over. No bulletproof vest would help.

Ambush by human means or by mechanical means is the same if the
recipient is dead or crippled.

Videotaping, an excellent topic. With the police fetish of taping the
perpetrator, and with the availability of small cameras, I feel that
police should be required to wear cameras when entering homes or
businesses, to preclude those unfounded claims of brutality. If the
actions are honorable and according to procedure, why not tape them?
This would certainly help to reveal the true way that the police are
treated, and help to show the public how difficult their job is.

Of course, there is always the possibility that they don't want the
video tapes since they (the tapes) show what abuses the police are
capable of. I witnessed the police here after they pulled over a stolen
car that contained several black youths. The black youths had been
pointing what turned out to be an air pistol at pedestrians as they
drove around. The police had the youths on the ground, being held at gun
point while that were cuffed. I have no problem with this. What I had a
problem with is that the police, after securing the youths in the police
car, continued with an inspection of the stolen car. An officer,
noticing me standing relatively near, looked at me, and I nodded a
hello. He loudly said "where do you live", and I indicated the next
street. He then yelled "then go back to where you live". Nevertheless, I
moved about 20 feet, then turned and continued to watch. Three officers
were pulling packages out of the trunk, and ripping wrapping paper off
them, it was Christmas time and whoever owned the car must recently have
made purchases. They were looking for stuff to steal. Hell, if they
found anything of value, they could blame the black kids for stealing
it. The car should have had a cursory inspection then been impounded in
toto. They were actually peeking around the trunk periodically to see if
anyone was watching. There was another officer in front of the stolen
car, they need not fear for their safety, no crowd had gathered. They
were paranoid that someone would see them, maybe that someone would FILM
them.

How about this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in582492.shtml
Police raid a high school in South Carolina, hold the students at gun
point, arrest others, used canines to terrorize the students, and find
nothing. Police need to use their brains. As they are programmed by
indoctrination that we are all "their enemies", they are ever willing to
do such atrocities as these. Even in Israel, some of the soldiers have
enough chutzpah to violate orders and refuse immoral commands. Too many
police use the excuse that they are just doing as ordered. No one has
the right to violate others in such a manner. They didn't find anything.
What assholes. Brave armed men with crew cuts and dogs, corralling the
evil teenagers. And you think that these types of schmucks deserve
adulation? This was truly sickening. I can see why police abhor cameras.

I grew up with a kid whose father was a commander on the PGH fire
department (his father brought the command car home with him in the
evening, easy to confirm his status). The kid took me through the house
to show me all the stuff his father had stolen from fires that he had
been at. Stereos and the like. All kinds of stuff, piles of it. I guess
the firemen feel that insurance will pay for it, but if one doesn't have
insurance, and if the stuff was in such excellent condition to be
stolen, perhaps they denied the people of items that they may direly
have wished to have. Maybe handling all those fire damaged (not) items
helped him buy that Corvette that he owned, according to you they get
paid very little.

Yes, we have had suicides, yes the job is stressful. Have you tried
breathing chemicals all day? Odors so bad that when one is sick with the
flu, its intolerable. Noise, have you ever listened to a dozen 1500 HP
motors and related equipment running all day, or massive steam leaks?
Have you worked 16 hours a day 6 days a week for several weeks (I
haven't but many have been compelled to). We have had people apply and
get jobs here, the jobs pay reasonably well, only to quit on the spot
then they are toured around the plant. It's too frightening for some.

My relative on the Pittsburgh Police said that he worked harder on his
first night as a PGH cop than he did the entire time he was a borough
cop. What about all the small time cops? Do they automatically get the
same adulation without the work?


Of the following, none of them knew that the building was going to fall.
Yes, firemen brave truly dangerous situations rather routinely, and yes
they entered the building, but they also left as quickly as the others
when the first building toppled. By concentrating on the valor of the
firemen, we omit recognition of the citizens that also did truly heroic
things.

I suggest that you and others support the police, the ones worthy of
support, and leave the worship for church.

Oh Well,

Regards


I think your perspective is skewed. The cops and firefighters that
were killed on 9-11-01 *knew* they were going into harm's way, and
many of them knew they wouldn't be coming back. They chose to risk
their lives to save others, if possible, and they sure as hell didn't
do it for a paycheck or 'adulation'.

Likely you will take umbrage with this post, so to save myself the
recriminations, I have killfiled it.

Oh well.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

In article ,
says...
othanks (James S. Prine) wrote in
:

I read the post on Highway workers, if you read this (the poster of the
topic), your point is well taken.

We are ambushed, just by non-human things. A co-worker, working in the
same place that I had all day, with the exception that the mechanics had
removed an inspection plate to examine a valve stem, took a breath and
fell to the grating (floor), unconscious. The supervisor wasn't sure
what to do in the next few seconds, not sure if the man was even
breathing. Fortunately, the man began snoring (a good sign of life), and
in about 40 seconds, he awoke, looking around, saying "I'm ok". He had
fallen with his legs bent behind him. Had he not fallen to the grating
and over the side he would have plummeted to his death.

Another co-worker had gone out early in the morning to do his rounds,
and he noticed a leak (fluids) into a containment area. When he
attempted to start a steam siphon to clear the contaminated water from
the area, he instantly fell unconscious, falling off a small wall onto
the street. Had he of fallen into the containment area, he would be
dead. He laid there unconscious until the gas service (they check the
level of toxic gasses throughout the plant) men found him. He was
transported to a PGH area hospital, and remained there for several days.
His face was quite a mess, as he fell off the wall while standing up. Is
an ambush any worse than this, especially if the victim had died?

I was at work one day when a storage tank blew up, casting its top (30
feet in diameter), over the side onto the roadway. A man routinely needs
to go to the top of the tanks as part of his rounds. If he had been
killed, would he have been any less dead than an officer killed my some
maniac? Would it have been any less expected? Is it not an ambush of
sorts? The only difference is that with an industrial accident, there
will be no backup support, no SWAT team. You run, hope to escape the
destruction, and wait for it to stabilize before returning. When your
buddy gets connected to 13800 volts (yes, it happened at my plant,
though it wasn't my buddy), how does one extricate him? One doesn't. You
watch, hope he doesn't completely fry, then get help. The man I speak of
lived and returned to work. Another was carrying a pipe that connected
to a 69000 Volt line, blowing through his buckle and down his legs,
blowing his shoes off. He lived but was unable to return to work, his
internal organs having been too seriously injured. My co-workers, being
with him, ran when it first occurred. After obtaining safe distance,
they realized that their buddy was involved, and returned to him when
the sparks were over. No bulletproof vest would help.

Ambush by human means or by mechanical means is the same if the
recipient is dead or crippled.

Videotaping, an excellent topic. With the police fetish of taping the

How did this thread go from a bald guy with grey hair to all this?
--
Dwayne
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BC895/

Soliloquy wrote:
We are ambushed, just by non-human things.

Quite frankly, I find it fascinating, yet rather odd, that you'd have the
audacity to compare inanimate objects with the workings of malicious human
beings.

No one has ever said (certainly not I) that working in industrial plants was
entirely safe...quite the contrary.

I've worked in an industrial plant myself...Amax Nickel Refining Company, in
the Ammonium Nitrate division (Area 13...lovely number!), and know how nasty
things can get. I had more than a few close shaves there, including narrowly
missing falling into a vessel filled with ammonia (the fumes literally consumed
my coveralls and I passed out while I was attempting to 'gauge' the tank), and
falling through a roof into a burning building while fighting a fire.

Is it not an ambush of sorts?

No, no, it's not an ambush of any sorts. Inanimate objects do not act from
free will, and so, cannot 'ambush'.

The only difference is that with an industrial accident, there
will be no backup support, no SWAT team.

Wow...here in Louisiana, the industrial plants are required to have their own
fire departments, HAZMAT units, medics, etc. And, it might interest you that
not every law enforcement agency has its own SWAT team...small municipal
departments cannot afford them in any event...and depending upon a State or
County team might take far too long to be of any benefit.

Ambush by human means or by mechanical means is the same if the
recipient is dead or crippled.

My dictionary defines 'ambush' as 'a deployment of persons in hiding to make a
surprise attack', and I'll have to go along with the dictionary in this issue.


With the police fetish of taping the
perpetrator

Fetish? I understood that videotaping perpetrators was to simply provide an
'unbiased witness', so to speak, during public contacts. A 'fetish' denotes
something entirely different.

I feel that
police should be required to wear cameras when entering homes or
businesses, to preclude those unfounded claims of brutality. If the
actions are honorable and according to procedure, why not tape them?

An interesting idea. But, would you like public service officials entering
your home and videotaping everything you do and say, the appearance of your
home and furnishings, etc? And, who would store the tapes, administer them,
etc? How long would they be kept? Would the video records have to be shared
with other government agencies, such as the IRS, Family Services, and so on?
Opens a lot of cans of worms, does it not?

Of course, there is always the possibility that they don't want the
video tapes since they (the tapes) show what abuses the police are
capable of.

LOL...being human beings, I imagine 'the police' are as capable of stupid,
silly, dangerous, or occasionally criminal behavior, as anyone else. But your
suggeston that 'the police' are afraid of being videotaped while performing
their duties doesn't necessarily hold much water.

What I had a
problem with is that the police, after securing the youths in the police
car, continued with an inspection of the stolen car.

Why? Was the vehicle impounded? Prior to being 'towed', or even sealed, the
police are invariably required to inventory the vehicle and its contents.

Three officers
were pulling packages out of the trunk, and ripping wrapping paper off
them, it was Christmas time and whoever owned the car must recently have
made purchases. They were looking for stuff to steal.

Really? Did you see any of the Officers steal anything, or is that just your
hunch? If you thought the Officers were trying to steal the items, why didn't
you obtain whatever information was available about them, and make an official
complaint, or call your local media?

Hell, if they
found anything of value, they could blame the black kids for stealing
it.

LOL...you can't have it both ways. The black kids in the stolen car *had*
already stolen the property. It had to be identified and undoubtedly
inventoried. There might have been information (not known to you) about one
(or more) of the packages inside the car that the police were trying to locate.
You didn't have all the available facts, but you immediately jump to the
conclusion that the police were trying to steal things.

They were actually peeking around the trunk periodically to see if
anyone was watching.

Yes, it's called 'situational awareness', for one thing. How did 'the police'
know that a backup team of punks might not have showed up to ambush them and
set their colleagues free? Sounds crazy, doesn't it, but we're finding out
more and more that gangs of thieves are acting in concert, with tactics,
communications, and weaponry available to facilitate all sorts of nasty things.

There was another officer in front of the stolen
car, they need not fear for their safety, no crowd had gathered.

LOL...it doesn't take 'a crowd' to fire a shot from a roof or a window, or to
initiate a drive-by shooting.

They
were paranoid that someone would see them, maybe that someone would FILM
them.

Actually, if seems that the paranoia in this incident is emanating from you.

Police need to use their brains. As they are programmed by
indoctrination that we are all "their enemies", they are ever willing to
do such atrocities as these.

Interesting, and yes, apparently I was correct about assuming that you are more
than a little paranoid. In the 'high school raid' in S.C. that you mentioned,
even you admitted that arrests had been made, yet you add that police dogs were
used to 'terrorize' the students, etc. You read an article, and take it as
gospel. Interesting indeed.

Even in Israel, some of the soldiers have
enough chutzpah to violate orders and refuse immoral commands.

My goodness....now you're equating foreign soldiers' actions with those of
American police officers! Unreal.

Too many
police use the excuse that they are just doing as ordered.

Ok...provide some documentation...names, dates, places. Prove it.

No one has
the right to violate others in such a manner. They didn't find anything.
What assholes. Brave armed men with crew cuts and dogs, corralling the
evil teenagers.

Oh, we're back to South Carolina again? Sorry, I thought we were still in
Isreal with the I.D.F. Sorry, my mistake g. As you wrote, arrests *had*
been made, so, what's your beef? That the teenagers had been 'terrorized' by
the police? I say again, you read an article, no doubt a totally UNbiased
article, and you feel that it is totally factual. Okay, you live in your
little world, and let the rest of us live in ours, amigo.

This was truly sickening. I can see why police abhor cameras.

Again, an unfounded assertation unproven by fact.

I grew up with a kid whose father was a commander on the PGH fire
department...

Remainder snipped for brevity...so now, the actions of a Fire Department
official many years ago are the basis of your problem with authority ficgures,
specifically, the police? If you knew that the man had stolen property in his
home, why didn't you say something it when it could have done some good, rather
than rant about it years later?

Yes, we have had suicides, yes the job is stressful. Have you tried
breathing chemicals all day?

Er, yes. I live in Louisiana, where our atmosphere reeks 24/7 from the nearby
chemical and refining plants...they don't call my neighborhood 'cancer alley'
for nothing g.

Have you worked 16 hours a day 6 days a week for several weeks (I
haven't but many have been compelled to).

Yes, I actually have pulled tours like that...for months on end. I really like
the 'days off' which you have to spend in Court after working 16 hours, or
attending mandatory training, etc.

What about all the small time cops? Do they automatically get the
same adulation without the work?

LOL...there you go again, with 'adulation' and I guess you'll be referring to
'worshipping cops', etc., again.

Of the following, none of them knew that the building was going to fall.

WRONG! Many of the NYFD members knew that the buildings *were* going to fall,
it was just a matter of time. Radio transmissions from the doomed men inside
the towers have confirmed this.

By concentrating on the valor of the
firemen, we omit recognition of the citizens that also did truly heroic
things.

Nonsense! I think everyone out there, in whatever capacity, performed well
that day...and in the horrendous days that followed. Except of course the
thieves and looters.

I suggest that you and others support the police, the ones worthy of
support, and leave the worship for church.

I can make some suggestions for you, too, but doubt that they'd make much
difference g.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/