KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

On Sep 26, 11:37 pm, RHF wrote:
On Sep 26, 11:14 pm, wrote:



On Sep 25, 8:52 am, RHF wrote:

On Sep 25, 7:13 am, David wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:13:43 -0700, wrote:
I suppose I can try KNX this morning, but I don't see any reason for
IBOC to cause motorboating. Granted IBOC sucks in many other ways, but
it should not have such an effect on the analog signal.

It's part of the IBOC signal. If you have selectable single sideband
listen to any HD AM station, one sideband only; you'll hear it quite
clearly. It's a warbling signal at approx. 400 Hz.

David - My Point Is - I Am Hearing This With An "HD" Radio :

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO LISTENERS !

I am hearing more and more of what we use to call
Automotive Engine {Ingition} Noise {at very High RPM}
with the Radi-Osophy HD-100 Radio.

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO BROADCASTERS !

When I first got this "HD" Radio this Noise was not as
noticeable -but- now it is the 'preponderant' sound across
the AM/MW Band except when there is a Clean and Clear
Analog AM/MW Radio Station to listen to on any given
Frequency.

-NOTE- This HD Radio "Noise" Background is so strong
that IMHO most 2nd and 3rd Generation "HD" Radios
should have a Squelch Knob to quiet-out this Noise so
that a Radio Listener only has to hear those 'local'
AM/MW Radio Stations with a Clean and Clear Signal :
Be it Analog or Digital.

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-
.

Yes, I didn't understand you were using an IBOC radio. I have no
experience with one, other than trying to play with one at Fry's and
not getting it to work.

I notice that some of the IBOC hash does reach the analog channel,
even using a very selective filter. That is, the noise floor of the
analog signal is raised a bit. This is noticeable on very clean AM
signals.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

M...Sushi,

The Radi-Osophy HD-100 Radio was functioning in the
Analogy Mode. Had a GE Superadio III sitting next to
it and basically heard the same thing on it.

It just may be that I am at the 'right distance' from the
Radio Station's Transmitter where It's Analog and Digital
Signals 'Interact' and cause the sound effect heard.

-Or- More likely it is the Analog Signal of One Radio
Station being Trashed by the Digital Side Band of an
Adjacent Channel's Radio Station. Again being at the
'right-distance' to where the two Signals 'Interact' and
cause the sound effect heard.

AM/MW "HD" Radio is 'by-design' Engineered to Interfer
with the two Adjacent AM/MW Radio Channels at 10 kHz.http://electronicdesign.com/Files/29.../Figure_02.gif

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-
.

I wonder if the iboc signal is messing with the analog AGC, making the
signal motorboat.

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

On Sep 26, 11:37 pm, RHF wrote:
On Sep 26, 11:14 pm, wrote:





On Sep 25, 8:52 am, RHF wrote:

On Sep 25, 7:13 am, David wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:13:43 -0700, wrote:
I suppose I can try KNX this morning, but I don't see any reason for
IBOC to cause motorboating. Granted IBOC sucks in many other ways, but
it should not have such an effect on the analog signal.

It's part of the IBOC signal. If you have selectable single sideband
listen to any HD AM station, one sideband only; you'll hear it quite
clearly. It's a warbling signal at approx. 400 Hz.

David - My Point Is - I Am Hearing This With An "HD" Radio :

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO LISTENERS !

I am hearing more and more of what we use to call
Automotive Engine {Ingition} Noise {at very High RPM}
with the Radi-Osophy HD-100 Radio.

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO BROADCASTERS !

When I first got this "HD" Radio this Noise was not as
noticeable -but- now it is the 'preponderant' sound across
the AM/MW Band except when there is a Clean and Clear
Analog AM/MW Radio Station to listen to on any given
Frequency.

-NOTE- This HD Radio "Noise" Background is so strong
that IMHO most 2nd and 3rd Generation "HD" Radios
should have a Squelch Knob to quiet-out this Noise so
that a Radio Listener only has to hear those 'local'
AM/MW Radio Stations with a Clean and Clear Signal :
Be it Analog or Digital.

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-
.

Yes, I didn't understand you were using an IBOC radio. I have no
experience with one, other than trying to play with one at Fry's and
not getting it to work.

I notice that some of the IBOC hash does reach the analog channel,
even using a very selective filter. That is, the noise floor of the
analog signal is raised a bit. This is noticeable on very clean AM
signals.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

M...Sushi,

The Radi-Osophy HD-100 Radio was functioning in the
Analogy Mode. Had a GE Superadio III sitting next to
it and basically heard the same thing on it.

It just may be that I am at the 'right distance' from the
Radio Station's Transmitter where It's Analog and Digital
Signals 'Interact' and cause the sound effect heard.

-Or- More likely it is the Analog Signal of One Radio
Station being Trashed by the Digital Side Band of an
Adjacent Channel's Radio Station. Again being at the
'right-distance' to where the two Signals 'Interact' and
cause the sound effect heard.

AM/MW "HD" Radio is 'by-design' Engineered to Interfer
with the two Adjacent AM/MW Radio Channels at 10 kHz.http://electronicdesign.com/Files/29.../Figure_02.gif

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-
.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

M... Sushi,

I can understand that yours was a valid listening
experience; and please accept that mine too was
a valid listening experience : After all that is part
the varied nature of radio wave propagation; and
the fact that while we were both about 400 Miles
from the Transmitter; we were also 120 Miles
apart. {Two Different RF Environments}

~ RHF

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

On Sep 29, 10:06 am, John Barnard wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 25, 8:52 am, RHF wrote:
On Sep 25, 7:13 am, David wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:13:43 -0700, wrote:
I suppose I can try KNX this morning, but I don't see any reason for
IBOC to cause motorboating. Granted IBOC sucks in many other ways, but
it should not have such an effect on the analog signal.
It's part of the IBOC signal. If you have selectable single sideband
listen to any HD AM station, one sideband only; you'll hear it quite
clearly. It's a warbling signal at approx. 400 Hz.
David - My Point Is - I Am Hearing This With An "HD" Radio :

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO LISTENERS !

I am hearing more and more of what we use to call
Automotive Engine {Ingition} Noise {at very High RPM}
with the Radi-Osophy HD-100 Radio.

THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR "HD" AM/MW RADIO BROADCASTERS !

When I first got this "HD" Radio this Noise was not as
noticeable -but- now it is the 'preponderant' sound across
the AM/MW Band except when there is a Clean and Clear
Analog AM/MW Radio Station to listen to on any given
Frequency.

-NOTE- This HD Radio "Noise" Background is so strong
that IMHO most 2nd and 3rd Generation "HD" Radios
should have a Squelch Knob to quiet-out this Noise so
that a Radio Listener only has to hear those 'local'
AM/MW Radio Stations with a Clean and Clear Signal :
Be it Analog or Digital.

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-
.

Yes, I didn't understand you were using an IBOC radio. I have no
experience with one, other than trying to play with one at Fry's and
not getting it to work.

I notice that some of the IBOC hash does reach the analog channel,
even using a very selective filter. That is, the noise floor of the
analog signal is raised a bit. This is noticeable on very clean AM
signals.

I don't know if anyone has tried but is it possible to remove some of
the IBOC hash on analogue signals by using DSP audio processing?

JB

The IBOC hash shows up in two manners. One is due to the finite slope
of the analog IF. Essentially, IBOC sits in the guard band. [Of
course, the guardband is now "quaint", dating back to the days when
the FCC cared about protecting signals. ] Given how AM demod works,
this shows up as high frequency hiss. Some of the digital hash falls
into the analog channel. It sounds like noise right in the voice band,
degrading the analog signal. There is no linear solution to get rid of
this noise.

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

"John Barnard" wrote in message
news:7CvLi.18458$x%6.12229@pd7urf2no...

I don't know if anyone has tried but is it possible to remove some of the
IBOC hash on analogue signals by using DSP audio processing?


Most stations are processing even the analog signal digitally, anyway. But
HD processing is generally done separately, to preserve more dynamic range
among other things.

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"John Barnard" wrote in message
news:7CvLi.18458$x%6.12229@pd7urf2no...

I don't know if anyone has tried but is it possible to remove some of the
IBOC hash on analogue signals by using DSP audio processing?


Most stations are processing even the analog signal digitally, anyway. But
HD processing is generally done separately, to preserve more dynamic range
among other things.

Audio processing not the issue. The issue is the HD side bands screwing
up the analog reception. The noise for analog reception varies depending
on what radio you use to receive the signal.

For example I can't use the sync function on my Sony 7600G for KKGO and
KNX unless I want to hear a a low frequency buzzing in the background.
This was not an issue until they started the night time HD broadcasting
where I would want to use sync.

On the R8B and RX340 I can use sync but not side band selectable sync
unless I want to hear hiss in the background. Things will continue to
get worse the more digital mode is allowed to be used.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
Audio processing not the issue. The issue is the HD side bands screwing
up the analog reception. The noise for analog reception varies depending
on what radio you use to receive the signal.

Most consumer radios have no issue; when you use an RX340 for a purpose for
which it was not designed, of course it sounds bad. Most listeners do not
have $5000 radios... most DXers don't either.

For example I can't use the sync function on my Sony 7600G for KKGO and
KNX unless I want to hear a a low frequency buzzing in the background.
This was not an issue until they started the night time HD broadcasting
where I would want to use sync.

The FCC did not take your reception of either station into consideration,
as, unless you live right on the ocean, you are outside the contours that
are going to get any protection these days.

On the R8B and RX340 I can use sync but not side band selectable sync
unless I want to hear hiss in the background. Things will continue to
get worse the more digital mode is allowed to be used.

How much more can digital (HD) be allowed to use? It is authorized 24/7 for
AM and FM in the US, and I do not believe that there were more than 24 hours
in the day.

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

David Frackelton Gleason, the 'tard boy who poses as 'Eduardo', wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
Audio processing not the issue. The issue is the HD side bands screwing
up the analog reception. The noise for analog reception varies depending
on what radio you use to receive the signal.

Most consumer radios have no issue; when you use an RX340 for a purpose for
which it was not designed, of course it sounds bad. Most listeners do not
have $5000 radios... most DXers don't either.

For example I can't use the sync function on my Sony 7600G for KKGO and
KNX unless I want to hear a a low frequency buzzing in the background.
This was not an issue until they started the night time HD broadcasting
where I would want to use sync.

The FCC did not take your reception of either station into consideration,
as, unless you live right on the ocean, you are outside the contours that
are going to get any protection these days.

On the R8B and RX340 I can use sync but not side band selectable sync
unless I want to hear hiss in the background. Things will continue to
get worse the more digital mode is allowed to be used.

How much more can digital (HD) be allowed to use? It is authorized 24/7 for
AM and FM in the US, and I do not believe that there were more than 24 hours
in the day.

Yeah, that more than 24 hours in one day thing is something you've not tried to
lie about... yet!

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:35:03 -0700, wrote:


The IBOC hash shows up in two manners. One is due to the finite slope
of the analog IF. Essentially, IBOC sits in the guard band. [Of
course, the guardband is now "quaint", dating back to the days when
the FCC cared about protecting signals. ] Given how AM demod works,
this shows up as high frequency hiss. Some of the digital hash falls
into the analog channel. It sounds like noise right in the voice band,
degrading the analog signal. There is no linear solution to get rid of
this noise.

The IBOC sidebands would be completely audible on any receiver except
for the fact that the upper sideband and the lower sideband are 180
degrees out of phase with each other. Any asymmetry in the i.f.
passband (like selectable sideband reception) or in the propagated
signal (e.g selective fading) will upset the cancellation and the hash
and the warble will be heard.

KNX 1070 exhibits severe motorboating at night
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
Audio processing not the issue. The issue is the HD side bands screwing
up the analog reception. The noise for analog reception varies depending
on what radio you use to receive the signal.

Most consumer radios have no issue; when you use an RX340 for a purpose for
which it was not designed, of course it sounds bad. Most listeners do not
have $5000 radios... most DXers don't either.

Like it matters but I have the same issue with the Drake @ $1,500. It
will be a problem with any radio that has sync.

What do you mean these radios were not meant for this purpose? Are you
turning into a complete nut case?

For example I can't use the sync function on my Sony 7600G for KKGO and
KNX unless I want to hear a a low frequency buzzing in the background.
This was not an issue until they started the night time HD broadcasting
where I would want to use sync.

The FCC did not take your reception of either station into consideration,
as, unless you live right on the ocean, you are outside the contours that
are going to get any protection these days.

Since I live close to the beach I get the best reception but inland
those stations do well on the car radio where I listen to AMBCB most the
time usually. FM reception is not that hot around here with all the
mountains just off the coast. AM usually offers better reception.

On the R8B and RX340 I can use sync but not side band selectable sync
unless I want to hear hiss in the background. Things will continue to
get worse the more digital mode is allowed to be used.

How much more can digital (HD) be allowed to use? It is authorized 24/7 for
AM and FM in the US, and I do not believe that there were more than 24 hours
in the day.

More stations could be using it. The digital side bands could be
increased in power or bandwidth.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California