HOW DRM handles skywave propagation (digital radio mondiale)
 

This is copied directly from the DRM User Guide:

"For ionospheric propagation, the most severe Doppler spread is
observed in the case of Near Vertical Incidence Sky-wave (NVIS)
propagation. Because the path lengths between transmitter and
receiver are quite short for NVIS, the distances between the
ionospheric layers represent a larger proportion of the total path
length. The several reflections can also have similar energy levels.
This gives rise to significant values of Doppler spread.

"To counter the effects of Doppler shift and Doppler spread the
frequency separation between the OFDM carriers in the DRM signal is
progressively increased (e.g. the carrier spacing in Mode D is more
than 2.5 times that in Mode A). This ensures that the frequency
spread experienced is kept to a sufficiently small fraction of the
carrier spacing to allow correct demodulation."

HOW DRM handles skywave propagation (digital radio mondiale)
 

wrote:


"To counter the effects of Doppler shift and Doppler spread the
frequency separation between the OFDM carriers in the DRM signal is
progressively increased (e.g. the carrier spacing in Mode D is more
than 2.5 times that in Mode A). This ensures that the frequency
spread experienced is kept to a sufficiently small fraction of the
carrier spacing to allow correct demodulation."

better than IBOC ??


--
--
Shortwave transmissions in English, Francais, Nederlands, Deutsch,
Suid-Afrikaans, Chinese, Dansk, Urdu, Cantonese, Greek, Spanish,
Portuguese, ...
http://shortwave.blogsite.org/ Updated every month or so ....

HOW DRM handles skywave propagation (digital radio mondiale)
 

On Oct 1, 1:42 pm, Ratata wrote:
wrote:
"To counter the effects of Doppler shift and Doppler spread the
frequency separation between the OFDM carriers in the DRM signal is
progressively increased (e.g. the carrier spacing in Mode D is more
than 2.5 times that in Mode A). This ensures that the frequency
spread experienced is kept to a sufficiently small fraction of the
carrier spacing to allow correct demodulation."

better than IBOC ??



Digital Radio Mondiale *is* IBOC. (Like HD Radio, it sits right next-
door to the AM signal, widening the channel by a few more kilohertz)

HOW DRM handles skywave propagation (digital radio mondiale)
 

I wish I was young again.I used to be a hound dog boy,,,, gittin at the
gals,,,,, now I am a pussycat.Doggy, she humps my right leg every
day/night and she slurps me face all over too.If that isn't Love, I
don't know what is!
cuhulin

HOW DRM handles skywave propagation (digital radio mondiale)
 

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:26:10 -0700, wrote:

Digital Radio Mondiale *is* IBOC. (Like HD Radio, it sits right next-
door to the AM signal, widening the channel by a few more kilohertz)

A few kilohertz here, a few kilohertz there, pretty soon you have
"real money" -- channel overlap a.k.a. harmful interference as
defined in communications law.
--
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 2, 4:26 am, wrote:
On Oct 1, 1:42 pm, Ratata wrote:

wrote:
"To counter the effects of Doppler shift and Doppler spread the
frequency separation between the OFDM carriers in the DRM signal is
progressively increased (e.g. the carrier spacing in Mode D is more
than 2.5 times that in Mode A). This ensures that the frequency
spread experienced is kept to a sufficiently small fraction of the
carrier spacing to allow correct demodulation."

better than IBOC ??


- Digital Radio Mondiale *is* IBOC. (Like HD Radio, it sits right
next-
- door to the AM signal, widening the channel by a few more kilohertz)

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

DOH ! - You had beeter go back and re-do your
DRM 101 and IBOC 101 Classes again. ~ RHF

Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale
Unique Digital Broadcast Signal Mode {Non-Analog AM}

In-Band On-Channel (IBOC) so called "HD" Radio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOC
Combined Analog and Digital Broadcast Signal Modes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

DRM is All Digital Mode of Shortwave (HF) Radio Transmission
http://www.eiinfo.fh-konstanz.de/dow...rm/image35.jpg

DRM Digital Signal at 13,790 kHz with AM Analog
http://shortwaveradio.org/drm_13_Af_010511_2100.jpg
Signals at 13770 kHz; 13800 kHz; and 13810 kHz.
* Clearly you can see that DRM requires at least
15 kHz of Channel "Spacing" for it not to interfere
with any 'adjacent' DRM or Analog Radio Broadcast.

Note - That the DRM Shortwave Radio Broadcasts are
independent and separate from the older Analog "AM"
Radio Transmission Mode Broadcasts.
* International, National and Local DRM Broadcasts
Underway in Markets Worldwide
http://www.drm.org/livebroadcast/livebroadcast.php

From what I have read and heard DRM appears to work
best as a Directed Beam Radio {Audio} Delivery System
up to 1000 Miles and out to 2500 Miles.
* DRM Tropical Band {With-In-Country} Omni-Directional
Radio Broadcasting best up to 300 Miles and out to 1000
Miles.

Analog "AM" And DRM Can Not Co-Exist On The Same
Channel {Frequency} At The Same Time [.]

As with all Shortwave Radio Broadcasting the Coordinated
Scheduling of Broadcast Time and Frequency is important
for DRM Broadcasters since they take up Four Times (4X)
the Bandwidth as the Analog "AM" Broadcasters.

High Frequency Co-ordination Conference (HFCC)
HFCC = http://www.hfcc.org/

drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 2, 6:17 pm, RHF wrote:

drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF
.




You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel" same as the HD
Radio works.

www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

THIS DISCUSSION IS OFF-TOPIC FOR REC.AUDIO.TECH
(AND REC.AUDIO.CAR, FOR THAT MATTER)
PLEASE DROP REC.AUDIO.TECH FROM THIS DISCUSSION

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 3, 5:02 am, wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:17 pm, RHF wrote:



drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF
.


- You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode.
- See this manual, page 20. Notice how the DRM sits
- "in-band on-channel" same as the HD Radio works.
-
- www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

yo, Yo. YO ! - SFTV - Dumb I May Be . . .

But presenetly the majority of DRM Broadcasting on the
Shortwave Radios is Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" and it
Trashes 20 kHz of Bandwidth around it and makes good
old AM Analog Shortwave Broadcasting very hard to Hear.

SFTV - Your Such A Gooder "Hybrid Digital" Man ! ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

wrote
On Oct 2, 6:17 pm, RHF wrote:

drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF

You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel" same as the HD
Radio works.
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

No, the manual does not state
"DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode".
A simulcast is not necessarily hybrid.
I also cannot find any affirmation on your statement
Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel".

RHF dumb?
Don't think so.
Take a good look on that page 20 of the manual.

[quote]
DRM supports a number of different simulcast options. Currently the
supported simulcast modes require the use of additional spectrum outside
an assigned 9 or 10 kHz channel (Multi-Channel or Multi-frequency
Simulcast, MCS). The DRM signal can be located in the next adjacent
upper or lower channel and can occupy a half or whole channel
depending on the bandwidth option chosen.
[unquote]

So far nothing about IBOC.
In general, a simulcast is a simultaneous transmission of the same
programme. Here, both transmissions are located in two adjacent
channels, the DRM transmitter operating with less power than the
analogue signal transmitter.

[quote]
(..) a satisfactory compromise can be obtained when the DRM power
level is around 14-16 dB below the adjacent analogue signal.
[unquote]

Unfortunately, operating on two adjacent frequencies (channels) may
give rise to interference problems. With IBOC no such problems
would occur, isn't it?
Now read the following about a possible DRM-future...

[quote]
In an ideal world it would also be possible to transmit both an analogue
and a digital signal within the same channel (9 or 10 kHz) so that the
analogue service could be received, without interference from the
digital signal, on any analogue receiver.
[unquote]

With only one transmission there would be no interference,
so in the real world anno 2007 interference may arise and
DRM is not IBOC.
The statement "DRM is not IBOC" is also apparent from
some other quotes from page 20:

[quote]
(..) promising proposals for a SCS (Single Channel Simulcast)
option are currently being evaluated (..)
Even if single channel simulcast may prove a difficult goal to
achieve (..)
[unquote]

DRM is not IBOC,
correct me if I'm wrong.

gr, Hein

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

RHF wrote:

But presently the majority of DRM Broadcasting on the
Shortwave Radios is Pure {100%} DRM "Digital"

Make it: all DRM broadcasts.
A simultaneous AM transmission on an adjacent channel
does not make the DRM transmission less digital.

gr, Hein

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

Hein ten Horn wrote:

wrote
On Oct 2, 6:17 pm, RHF wrote:

drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF

You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel" same as the HD
Radio works.
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

No, the manual does not state
"DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode".
A simulcast is not necessarily hybrid.
I also cannot find any affirmation on your statement
Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel".

RHF dumb?
Don't think so.
Take a good look on that page 20 of the manual.

[quote]
DRM supports a number of different simulcast options. Currently the
supported simulcast modes require the use of additional spectrum outside
an assigned 9 or 10 kHz channel (Multi-Channel or Multi-frequency
Simulcast, MCS). The DRM signal can be located in the next adjacent
upper or lower channel and can occupy a half or whole channel
depending on the bandwidth option chosen.
[unquote]

So far nothing about IBOC.
In general, a simulcast is a simultaneous transmission of the same
programme. Here, both transmissions are located in two adjacent
channels, the DRM transmitter operating with less power than the
analogue signal transmitter.

[quote]
(..) a satisfactory compromise can be obtained when the DRM power
level is around 14-16 dB below the adjacent analogue signal.
[unquote]

Unfortunately, operating on two adjacent frequencies (channels) may
give rise to interference problems. With IBOC no such problems
would occur, isn't it?
Now read the following about a possible DRM-future...

[quote]
In an ideal world it would also be possible to transmit both an analogue
and a digital signal within the same channel (9 or 10 kHz) so that the
analogue service could be received, without interference from the
digital signal, on any analogue receiver.
[unquote]

With only one transmission there would be no interference,
so in the real world anno 2007 interference may arise and
DRM is not IBOC.
The statement "DRM is not IBOC" is also apparent from
some other quotes from page 20:

[quote]
(..) promising proposals for a SCS (Single Channel Simulcast)
option are currently being evaluated (..)
Even if single channel simulcast may prove a difficult goal to
achieve (..)
[unquote]

DRM is not IBOC,
correct me if I'm wrong.

gr, Hein

Look at page 19 of the document.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 3, 5:29 pm, "Hein ten Horn"
wrote:
wrote

On Oct 2, 6:17 pm, RHF wrote:

drm ain't iboc -and- iboc ain't drm ~ RHF

You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel" same as the HD
Radio works.
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

No, the manual does not state
"DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode".
A simulcast is not necessarily hybrid.
I also cannot find any affirmation on your statement
Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel".

RHF dumb?
Don't think so.
Take a good look on that page 20 of the manual.

[quote]
DRM supports a number of different simulcast options. Currently the
supported simulcast modes require the use of additional spectrum outside
an assigned 9 or 10 kHz channel (Multi-Channel or Multi-frequency
Simulcast, MCS). The DRM signal can be located in the next adjacent
upper or lower channel and can occupy a half or whole channel
depending on the bandwidth option chosen.
[unquote]

So far nothing about IBOC.
In general, a simulcast is a simultaneous transmission of the same
programme. Here, both transmissions are located in two adjacent
channels, the DRM transmitter operating with less power than the
analogue signal transmitter.

[quote]
(..) a satisfactory compromise can be obtained when the DRM power
level is around 14-16 dB below the adjacent analogue signal.
[unquote]

Unfortunately, operating on two adjacent frequencies (channels) may
give rise to interference problems. With IBOC no such problems
would occur, isn't it?
Now read the following about a possible DRM-future...

[quote]
In an ideal world it would also be possible to transmit both an analogue
and a digital signal within the same channel (9 or 10 kHz) so that the
analogue service could be received, without interference from the
digital signal, on any analogue receiver.
[unquote]

With only one transmission there would be no interference,
so in the real world anno 2007 interference may arise and
DRM is not IBOC.
The statement "DRM is not IBOC" is also apparent from
some other quotes from page 20:

[quote]
(..) promising proposals for a SCS (Single Channel Simulcast)
option are currently being evaluated (..)
Even if single channel simulcast may prove a difficult goal to
achieve (..)
[unquote]


- DRM is not IBOC,
- correct me if I'm wrong.
-
- gr, Hein

HtH - I am so sorry - I can not correct you
-cause- you ain't wrong. ~ RHF

Yes HtH - You Are Right "DRM -Ain't- IBOC" !

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

Here are a few more thoughs to consider :

DRM 'may' have the Analog "AM" Signal along-side
'Adjacent-To the Digital Signal. {Two Unque Functions}
-NOTE- This uses up even more Bandwidth then
DRM alone.
-IMHO- The better approach for DRM would be to
have the separate Digial and Analog "Simulcast"
Signals 'spaced' 50 kHz apart so that each of the
two independant Broadcast Signal would have no
chance of interferring with each other; and the DRM
Signal could be Transmitted at Full Power.
-Remember- DRM is a single Mode of Transmission.
-Also Note- DRM Radio/Receivers are Manual
Single Mode Operation.

IBOC has the Analog "AM" Signal 'nested' in-between
the Two Outer Digital Side-Bands : By-Design and is
Bi-Modal 100% of the time. {Functions in Tandem}
-Remember- IBOC is a Dual Transmission Mode.
-Also Note- IBOC Radio/Receivers are Automatic
Dual Mode Operation.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

craigm wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:

(..)
Now read the following about a possible DRM-future...

[quote]
In an ideal world it would also be possible to transmit both an analogue
and a digital signal within the same channel (9 or 10 kHz) so that the
analogue service could be received, without interference from the
digital signal, on any analogue receiver.
[unquote]

With only one transmission there would be no interference,
so in the real world anno 2007 interference may arise and
DRM is not IBOC.
The statement "DRM is not IBOC" is also apparent from
some other quotes from page 20:

[quote]
(..) promising proposals for a SCS (Single Channel Simulcast)
option are currently being evaluated (..)
Even if single channel simulcast may prove a difficult goal to
achieve (..)
[unquote]

DRM is not IBOC,
correct me if I'm wrong.

Look at page 19 of the document.

Thanks, craigm.
To be honest, by and by it occurs to me that this document is
intending to make DRM-IBOC-things look better than they are.

[quote, page 19]
The system is flexible in other ways as well, in that the broadcaster has
the facility to vary the occupied bandwidth of the signal to meet the
spectrum requirements of different frequency bands in different regions
of the world. This can include the ability to provide services often
described as IBOC (In Band on Channel).
[unquote]

What is meant by "This"?
If that is "a set of requirements", then the IBOC remark says nothing
about DRM.
If it is "the system flexibility", then why hasn't been written
"This includes..." instead of "This can include..."?
In that case the answer is quite simple: nowadays there's no DRM
in band on channel available, as is stated on page 20 (see above)
and on page 19 (below).

[quote, page 19]
A number of promising proposals have also been made for a single
channel simulcast option (SCS), whereby an analogue and DRM
signal together occupy a single 9 or 10 kHz transmission channel.
These proposals offer the possibility of a signal which is compatible
with reception on both analogue and digital receivers. Work is still
actively in progress to determine which of the proposals would
provide the best way of meeting this requirement.
[unquote]

Promises, promises...
So, until further notice DRM provides no IBOC-ability.

gr, Hein

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 4, 7:24 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 2, 4:26 am, wrote:

Digital Radio Mondiale *is* IBOC. (Like HD Radio, it sits right
next to the AM signal, widening the channel by a few more kilohertz)

DOH ! - You had beeter go back and re-do your
DRM 101 and IBOC 101 Classes again. ~ RHF

Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale
-
- You had "beeter" try reading the wikipedia article you site. Read
- it. Quote: "A full 10 kHz channel for AM, plus a 5 kHz half-
channel
- sideband for DRM."
-
- That's in-band on-channel mode.
-
- IBOC.
-
- duh

DOH ! - When you 'sight' a spelling mistake and choose
to 'cite' it; make sure you do not 'site' it instead. ~ RHF

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

If you continue to argue that DRM 'is' IBOC : Then clearly some
people on this Shortwave Radio Newsgroup are going to call to
question your educational claims and technical expertise as
an "EE".

One Again Please Read :

Note- The 'operative word here is 'may'.

DRM 'may' have the Analog "AM" Signal along-side
'Adjacent-To {as an Adjunct to} the Digital Signal.
{Two Unque and Separate Functions}
-NOTE- This uses up even more Bandwidth then DRM
alone and DRM alone uses up more Bandwidth then
Analog "AM" alone.
PLUS - The DRM Digital Signal Level Must be 'reduced'
so that it will not Interfere with the Simulcast of the
Analog "AM" Signal.
-IMHO- The better approach for DRM would be to
have the separate Digial and Analog "Simulcast"
Signals 'spaced' 50 kHz apart so that each of the
two independant Broadcast Signal would have no
chance of interferring with each other; and the DRM
Signal could be Transmitted at Full Power.
-Remember- DRM is a single Mode of Transmission.
-Also Note- DRM Radio/Receivers are Manual
Single Mode Operation and you would have to Tune to
each of the DRM or Analog "AM" Signals independly.

BY-DESIGN - IBOC has the Analog "AM" Signal
'nested' in-between the Two Outer Digital Side-Bands
and is Always 100% of the time Bi-Modal.
{Always Functions in Tandem : Analog and Digital}
-Remember- IBOC is a Dual Transmission Mode.
-Also Note- IBOC Radio/Receivers are Automatic
Dual Mode Operation; allowing you to Tune to a Single
Frequency and Receive either the Digital or Analog
when available. {True IBOC and not just a Simulcast}

Please refer to the DRM Manual -wrt- IBOC
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf
Pages 19, 43 and 58 apply.

Wikipedia is 'Readers Digest' version of "What DRM Is"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale

IBOC is a Single Frequency Broadcasting "Technology"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBOC
In-Band On-Channel (IBOC)

Simulcast is a Dual Frequency Broadcasting "Concept"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulcast

The Bottom Line : DRM -Ain't- IBOC

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 4, 7:25 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:02 am, wrote:

- You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode.
- See this manual, page 20. Notice how the DRM sits
- "in-band on-channel" same as the HD Radio works.
-www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

- - But presenetly the majority of DRM Broadcasting on the
- - Shortwave Radios is Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" and it
- - Trashes 20 kHz of Bandwidth around it and makes good
- - old AM Analog Shortwave Broadcasting very hard to Hear.
-
- Well what the heck do you expect from an IBOC format???
- (Yes you heard right; IBOC.)

SFTV - Spoken like a 'true' "Hybrid Digital" Man ! ~ RHF
- - - Clearly Digital "Hash" has had it's 'effect' on you. ;-}

Please Understand that a Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" Signal;
which the majority of DRM Shortwave Broadcasting 'is' - Is a
Single Signal and hence can not be consider IBOC. They do
NOT Transmit any Analog along with the DRM Digital Signal.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

City of Bad Men flick has cranked up on Radio tb now.(move, doggy) But,
I was interested in watching that sexy lookin Latina woman on Dog
Whisperer (or whatever it is?) tellin her little Chiuaar doggy, NO! SIT!
No Sit!
I would like to sit on her lap!

Ohhhhhh,,,,,, decisions,,, decisions!
cuhulin

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

Hein ten Horn wrote:

craigm wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:

(..)
Now read the following about a possible DRM-future...

[quote]
In an ideal world it would also be possible to transmit both an analogue
and a digital signal within the same channel (9 or 10 kHz) so that the
analogue service could be received, without interference from the
digital signal, on any analogue receiver.
[unquote]

With only one transmission there would be no interference,
so in the real world anno 2007 interference may arise and
DRM is not IBOC.
The statement "DRM is not IBOC" is also apparent from
some other quotes from page 20:

[quote]
(..) promising proposals for a SCS (Single Channel Simulcast)
option are currently being evaluated (..)
Even if single channel simulcast may prove a difficult goal to
achieve (..)
[unquote]

DRM is not IBOC,
correct me if I'm wrong.

Look at page 19 of the document.

Thanks, craigm.
To be honest, by and by it occurs to me that this document is
intending to make DRM-IBOC-things look better than they are.

[quote, page 19]
The system is flexible in other ways as well, in that the broadcaster has
the facility to vary the occupied bandwidth of the signal to meet the
spectrum requirements of different frequency bands in different regions
of the world. This can include the ability to provide services often
described as IBOC (In Band on Channel).
[unquote]

What is meant by "This"?
If that is "a set of requirements", then the IBOC remark says nothing
about DRM.
If it is "the system flexibility", then why hasn't been written
"This includes..." instead of "This can include..."?
In that case the answer is quite simple: nowadays there's no DRM
in band on channel available, as is stated on page 20 (see above)
and on page 19 (below).

[quote, page 19]
A number of promising proposals have also been made for a single
channel simulcast option (SCS), whereby an analogue and DRM
signal together occupy a single 9 or 10 kHz transmission channel.
These proposals offer the possibility of a signal which is compatible
with reception on both analogue and digital receivers. Work is still
actively in progress to determine which of the proposals would
provide the best way of meeting this requirement.
[unquote]

Promises, promises...
So, until further notice DRM provides no IBOC-ability.

gr, Hein


I suppose it matters what you define IBOC to really mean. In Band On
Channel, just by looking at the words, may only mean "In Band" as between
the highest and lowest frequencies of the band, 530-1710 kHz for the US AM
broadcast band, and "On Channel" by being centered on a one of the common
transmitting frequencies (a multiple of 10 kHz for AM broadcast in the US).

Ideally it would would also require less bandwidth than the channel spacing,
but that is not the case for HD Radio in the US. However it is "On Channel"
if you consider that an analog station could use the same bandwidth if it
was broadcasting 15 kHz audio bandwidth.

So, depending upon the definition of "channel" On Channel may also imply
fitting within the channel.

To relate this to DRM and shortwave, if a DRM signal is broadcast within the
bounds of one of the shortwave broadcast bands, and its central frequency
is the same as an analog broadcast would use then it may be appropriate to
call it IBOC. If the DRM signal is using 10 kHz bandwidth, then it would be
using the same approximate bandwidth as many(most?) analog shortwave
stations.

In the US, IBOC may be used as if it were synonymous with HD Radio. (HD
Radio being what Ibiquity is promoting.) I would consider HD Radio to be a
specific form, or implementation, of IBOC. (Here, my definition of IBOC is
only what I describe above.)

While I might consider DRM to be a form of IBOC, I consider DRM and HD Radio
to be significantly different.

If anyone has a a reference to the 'official' definition of IBOC, I'd like
to see it.

It would also be interesting to see what folks consider a "channel" to be.
Specifically, how many kHz wide is a channel?

craigm

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

"craigm" wrote in message
...

I suppose it matters what you define IBOC to really mean. In Band On
Channel, just by looking at the words, may only mean "In Band" as between
the highest and lowest frequencies of the band, 530-1710 kHz for the US AM
broadcast band, and "On Channel" by being centered on a one of the common
transmitting frequencies (a multiple of 10 kHz for AM broadcast in the
US).


IBOC in the US= In band (as in not needing to use a separate frequency band)
On Channel (as in using nominally the same channel as the simultaneous
analog transmission)

For the record, I don't buy into the definition, since it's obvious that the
digital subcarriers most definately protrude into the adjacent channel's
bandwidth(s).

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

"craigm" wrote in message
...

I suppose it matters what you define IBOC to really mean. In Band On
Channel, just by looking at the words, may only mean "In Band" as between
the highest and lowest frequencies of the band, 530-1710 kHz for the US AM
broadcast band, and "On Channel" by being centered on a one of the common
transmitting frequencies (a multiple of 10 kHz for AM broadcast in the
US).


IBOC in the US= In band (as in not needing to use a separate frequency band)
On Channel (as in using nominally the same channel as the simultaneous
analog transmission)

For the record, I don't buy into the definition, since it's obvious that the
digital subcarriers most definately protrude into the adjacent channel's
bandwidth(s).

You and anyone else that uses their brain.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote

DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel"
same as the HD Radio works.
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

No, the manual does not state
"DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode".
A simulcast is not necessarily hybrid.

By that reasoning, HD Radio is not a hybrid format, because the
digital information sits *next to* the AM signal.

[a copy]
By that reasoning, HD Radio is not a hybrid format, (..)

False.

[copy]
(..) HD Radio is not a hybrid format, because the
digital information sits *next to* the AM signal.

False.

HD Radio is a simulcast format.

True, on the understanding that both programme contents are the same.

[quote]
DRM supports a number of different simulcast options. Currently the
supported simulcast modes require the use of additional spectrum outside
an assigned 9 or 10 kHz channel (Multi-Channel or Multi-frequency
Simulcast, MCS). The DRM signal can be located in the next adjacent
upper or lower channel and can occupy a half or whole channel
depending on the bandwidth option chosen.
[unquote]
So far nothing about IBOC.

Okay. By that reasoning, because HD Radio sits "next to" the AM
signal, then it is not IBOC either. It is a simulcast format.

Do you agree with that statement?

As a whole? No.

gr, Hein

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 4, 7:31 am, wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote

DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode. See this manual,
page 20. Notice how the DRM sits "in-band on-channel"
same as the HD Radio works.
www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

No, the manual does not state
"DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode".
A simulcast is not necessarily hybrid.


- By that reasoning, HD Radio is not a hybrid format, because
- the digital information sits *next to* the AM signal.

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

As and "EE", your above Statement is NOT Correct nor Clear
and it does not represent the Technical Specification {Facts}
of both iBiquity's IBOC and DRM. Please endeavor to be more
Factual and Accurate in your future representaions here.

Now For The Third Time :

iBiquity's IBOC Broadcast System is a Dual Mode Broadcasting
Scheme; with both the Analog AM and Digital Signals 'being'
"Intrinsic" to the Radio Transmission Process.

The Key Word Being : "Intrinsic"
http://www.answers.com/intrinsic&r=67

The DRM Broadcast System was initally designed and implemented
as a Single (1) Mode All Digital Broadcasting Scheme.

Note - Simulcasting and Analog AM Signal along with the Digital is
a 'possibility' but is NOT currently done on the Shortwave Radio
Band.

FWIW - The DRM Digital Signal 'may' be Broadcast along side
of an Analog AM Signal {Co-Channeled} -but- Both Signals are
Broadcast Separately and are 'independent' of each other; they
are NOT "Intrinsic" to each other as part of a Unified Radio
Broadcast System.

Caution - That the DRM Digital Signal has to be 'reduced' when
it is Broadcast along side an Analog AM Signal to prevent any
Interference to the Analog AM Signal.

The-Bottom-Line : Presently in the Shortwave Bands DRM
is Broadcast 'solely' in the 100% Digital Mode; as it was
designed to do.

for the third time or more - keeping it simple and practical ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.
-----
Fantastic Science by Better Abuse

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 3, 6:55 am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
THIS DISCUSSION IS OFF-TOPIC FOR REC.AUDIO.TECH
(AND REC.AUDIO.CAR, FOR THAT MATTER)
PLEASE DROP REC.AUDIO.TECH FROM THIS DISCUSSION

Why didn't you remove them your self or change the follow-ups?

Better yet why didn't you just hire Tonya HARDING to do a SEARCH AND
KNEEWHACK?

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 6, 2:32 am, Steven wrote:
On Oct 3, 6:55 am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

THIS DISCUSSION IS OFF-TOPIC FOR REC.AUDIO.TECH
(AND REC.AUDIO.CAR, FOR THAT MATTER)
PLEASE DROP REC.AUDIO.TECH FROM THIS DISCUSSION
-
- Why didn't you remove them your self or change the follow-ups?
-
- Better yet why didn't you just hire Tonya HARDING
- to do a SEARCH AND KNEEWHACK ?

LMAO & ROTFL ! :o) ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

RHF wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:25 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:02 am, wrote:

- You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode.
- See this manual, page 20. Notice how the DRM sits
- "in-band on-channel" same as the HD Radio works.
-www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

- - But presenetly the majority of DRM Broadcasting on the
- - Shortwave Radios is Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" and it
- - Trashes 20 kHz of Bandwidth around it and makes good
- - old AM Analog Shortwave Broadcasting very hard to Hear.
-
- Well what the heck do you expect from an IBOC format???
- (Yes you heard right; IBOC.)

SFTV - Spoken like a 'true' "Hybrid Digital" Man ! ~ RHF
- - - Clearly Digital "Hash" has had it's 'effect' on you. ;-}

Please Understand that a Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" Signal;
which the majority of DRM Shortwave Broadcasting 'is' - Is a
Single Signal and hence can not be consider IBOC. They do
NOT Transmit any Analog along with the DRM Digital Signal.



Neither does HD Radio you stupid dog-****ing idiot. I am sick and
tgired of tlaking to asswhokle like ytou .s yogu sutpiodk fudge0-
pioamncing bastaredd.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote:

Okay. By that reasoning, because HD Radio sits "next to" the AM
signal, then it is not IBOC either. It is a simulcast format.
Do you agree with that statement?

As a whole? No.



There is no technical difference. Both HD radio and DRM operate on
the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

Steven wrote:
He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.


Hey look!!!! A two-year-old wittle baby boyee!!! He hasn't learned
manners yet.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

RHF wrote:

As and "EE", your above Statement is NOT Correct nor Clear
and it does not represent the Technical Specification {Facts}
of both iBiquity's IBOC and DRM. Please endeavor to be more
Factual and Accurate in your future representaions here.






There is no technical difference. Both HD radio and DRM operate on
the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

YOU go read the specs.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

"SFTV_troy" wrote in message
ups.com...

RHF wrote:

As and "EE", your above Statement is NOT Correct nor Clear
and it does not represent the Technical Specification {Facts}
of both iBiquity's IBOC and DRM. Please endeavor to be more
Factual and Accurate in your future representaions here.






There is no technical difference. Both HD radio and DRM operate on
the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

YOU go read the specs.


No, DRM is 100% digital. To run analog simultaneously you need a separate
frequency. Some testing is being done, like that in Mexico, by placing the
DRM signal on the adjacent AM channel... a station on 1060 is going to have
DRM on 1070.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 9, 10:08 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:25 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:02 am, wrote:

- You are dumb. DRM has a hybrid digital/analog mode.
- See this manual, page 20. Notice how the DRM sits
- "in-band on-channel" same as the HD Radio works.
-www.drm.org/pdfs/Broadcast_Manual.pdf

- - But presenetly the majority of DRM Broadcasting on the
- - Shortwave Radios is Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" and it
- - Trashes 20 kHz of Bandwidth around it and makes good
- - old AM Analog Shortwave Broadcasting very hard to Hear.
-
- Well what the heck do you expect from an IBOC format???
- (Yes you heard right; IBOC.)

SFTV - Spoken like a 'true' "Hybrid Digital" Man ! ~ RHF
- - - Clearly Digital "Hash" has had it's 'effect' on you. ;-}

Please Understand that a Pure {100%} DRM "Digital" Signal;
which the majority of DRM Shortwave Broadcasting 'is' - Is a
Single Signal and hence can not be consider IBOC. They do
NOT Transmit any Analog along with the DRM Digital Signal.

- Neither does HD Radio you stupid dog-****ing idiot.
- I am sick and tgired of tlaking to asswhokle like ytou .s yogu
- sutpiodk fudge0- pioamncing bastaredd.

SFTV - Spoken like a 'true' "Hybrid Digital" Man ! ~ RHF

-Once Again- Clearly Digital "Hash" has had it's 'effect' on you. ;-}

-wrt- "Dog-****ing" Please don't express your Sexual Fantasies
on this Shortwave Radio Newsgroup - They Are Clealy Off-Topic.

-and- yes i am an 'idiot' who loves
to listen to free over-the-air radio ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 9, 10:13 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote:

Okay. By that reasoning, because HD Radio sits "next to" the AM
signal, then it is not IBOC either. It is a simulcast format.
Do you agree with that statement?

As a whole? No.

- There is no technical difference.
- Both HD radio and DRM operate on the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

SFTV -aka- "Hybrid Digital" Man,

Once Again the Key Word Being : "Intrinsic"
http://www.answers.com/intrinsic&r=67

iBquity's IBOC Broadcast System is 'Intrinsic'

DRM's Simulcast Broadcast Scheme is NOT 'Intrinsic'

yes it is that simple ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

In article om,
SFTV_troy wrote:

Steven wrote:
He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.


Hey look!!!! A two-year-old wittle baby boyee!!! He hasn't learned
manners yet.

Looks like its time to up the Prozac dosage.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

David Eduardo wrote:
"SFTV_troy" wrote in message

There is no technical difference. Both HD radio and DRM operate on
the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal


No, DRM is 100% digital. To run analog simultaneously you need a separate
frequency. Some testing is being done, like that in Mexico, by placing the
DRM signal on the adjacent AM channel... a station on 1060 is going to have
DRM on 1070.

And I repeat:

HD radio works the same way. The digital signal sits *next to* the
station at 1070.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 9, 9:10 pm, Telamon
wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:
Steven wrote:




He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.

Hey look!!!! A two-year-old wittle baby boyee!!! He
hasn't learned manners yet.

Looks like its time to up the Prozac dosage.


Time to pick-out your coffin, and crawl in. The world will be a
better place without assholes like yourself.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

RHF wrote:
On Oct 9, 10:13 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote:

Okay. By that reasoning, because HD Radio sits "next to" the AM
signal, then it is not IBOC either. It is a simulcast format.
Do you agree with that statement?

As a whole? No.

- There is no technical difference.
- Both HD radio and DRM operate on the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal


iBquity's IBOC Broadcast System is 'Intrinsic'
DRM's Simulcast Broadcast Scheme is NOT 'Intrinsic'




That distinction is more about FAITH, than reality. There's no real
difference between DRM's version (sitting next-to the AM signal) and
HD's version (also sitting next-to the AM signal).

Neither sits their digital signal on-top of the AM!
That would not work.
Duh.

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 11, 5:45 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
On Oct 9, 9:10 pm, Telamon
wrote:

SFTV_troy wrote:
Steven wrote:

He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.

Hey look!!!! A two-year-old wittle baby boyee!!! He
hasn't learned manners yet.

Looks like its time to up the Prozac dosage.

- Time to pick-out your coffin, and crawl in. The world
- will be a better place without assholes like yourself.

SFTV - Please Take Your Own Advise First as a Demostration
of Commitment to Your Own Words. {Walk-the-Talk} ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 11, 5:43 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
David Eduardo wrote:
"SFTV_troy" wrote in message

There is no technical difference. Both HD radio and DRM operate on
the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

No, DRM is 100% digital. To run analog simultaneously you need a separate
frequency. Some testing is being done, like that in Mexico, by placing the
DRM signal on the adjacent AM channel... a station on 1060 is going to have
DRM on 1070.

And I repeat:


- HD radio works the same way.
- The digital signal sits *next to* the station at 1070.

SFTV,

BLATANTLY TECNICALLY WRONG ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE AN "EE" ?

us lesser being would like proof ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

On Oct 11, 5:48 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Oct 9, 10:13 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
Hein ten Horn wrote:
wrote:

Okay. By that reasoning, because HD Radio sits "next to" the AM
signal, then it is not IBOC either. It is a simulcast format.
Do you agree with that statement?

As a whole? No.

- There is no technical difference.
- Both HD radio and DRM operate on the same principles:
- 2 separate signals
- 1 analog
- 1 digital
- the digital is simulcast "next to" the original analog signal

iBquity's IBOC Broadcast System is 'Intrinsic'
DRM's Simulcast Broadcast Scheme is NOT 'Intrinsic'


- That distinction is more about FAITH, than reality.

- There's no real difference between DRM's version
- (sitting next-to the AM signal) and HD's version
- (also sitting next-to the AM signal).

SFTV,

BLATANTLY TECNICALLY WRONG !
ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE AN "EE" ?

us lesser being would like proof ~ RHF

DRM -Ain't- IBOC
 

In article .com,
SFTV_troy wrote:

On Oct 9, 9:10 pm, Telamon
wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:
Steven wrote:




He isn't using a No. 2 pencil so the entire test is INVALID.

Hey look!!!! A two-year-old wittle baby boyee!!! He
hasn't learned manners yet.

Looks like its time to up the Prozac dosage.


Time to pick-out your coffin, and crawl in. The world will be a
better place without assholes like yourself.

You must have taken your meds today. Nice to see you calmed down a bit.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California