RadioBanter - Analog versus DSP

RadioBanter (https://www.radiobanter.com/)

- Shortwave (https://www.radiobanter.com/shortwave/)

- - Analog versus DSP (https://www.radiobanter.com/shortwave/127054-analog-versus-dsp.html)

Analog versus DSP

VistaCruiser1 asked:
What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does
Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio
_________________________________________

Certainly the filters on the Icom 756 PRO III are just awesome - they
don't come much better than that.
The only filters I ever knew "rang" where on very narrow mechanical
filters such as you would use on CW, that is on analogue radio's.

On the 756Pro3 you will get absolutely no ringing at all, even on the
narrowest CW filter settings, and the number of 756Pro3 users who are
ecstatic about the filter performance on CW are well listed in the
eHam reviews, of which there are hundreds of happy owners. See:
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/4635

No, the 756Pro3 is not firmware upgradeable, but it is the third
incarnation of this radio and you will see the very many users on eHam
who rave about it.
As for getting a radio with the highest dynamic range, I would say
that this is an overated feature. One of my DX pals had a radio with
93dB of close in performance and I never saw him post logs any better
than anyone else. On the other hand, many of the top DXer's are now
using SDR radio's which have a significantly lower close in
performance, yet they are achieving the most amazing results. The
close in of the 7030 is 82dB vs that of the 756Pro3 being 78dB (as
tested by QST) - you will never notice the difference in practical
use.

As for audio, it was true of the early Icom offerings that their audio
was poor, but the latest batch, including the 756Pro3 are very much
better. In fact if you place the 7030 side by side with the 756Pro3
and play them alternatively through a good outboard speaker, I am
willing to bet you will find the 756 audio better = it's really very
good.

Then we have price: yes, the 756Pro3 is expensive, but I never saw on
any of the eHam reviews anyone claiming it was not value for money. I
have owned mine for three years now and the shock of the high price
has long since worn off after experiencing the pleasure of owning one
of the finest performing and engineered radio's in the world. However,
if price is a major consideration, then consider as an alternative the
Icom 746Pro, which is considerably cheaper at about $1,600 - a very
good buy and the identical engine as that used in the 756Pro3.

Finally, if you are considering an SDR (many serious DXer's have
already moved into these, especially the older SDR-IQ), then the only
show in town at the moment is the Italian Perseus - it will land you
at about $1000 and has some great features with performance to match.

Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now.

John Plimmer, Montagu, Western Cape Province, South Africa
South 33 d 47 m 32 s, East 20 d 07 m 32 s
RX Icom IC-756 PRO III with MW mods
Drake SW8 & ERGO software
Sony 7600D, GE SRIII, Redsun RP2100
BW XCR 30, Sangean 803A.
GE circa 50's radiogram
Antenna's RF Systems DX 1 Pro Mk II, Datong AD-270
Kiwa MW Loop, PAORDT Roelof mini-whip
http://www.dxing.info/about/dxers/plimmer.dx

On Nov 20, 12:25 am, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

Analog versus DSP

On Nov 19, 9:59 pm, wrote:

"Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now."

Dear John,

As I stated originally I do not really want to, nor can I truly, get
into an "argument" over the merits of the ICOM IC-756 Pro III vs. the
AOR AR7030 'Plus,' especially as I have no experience with the ICOM
unit. I know you tried an AOR for about a month or two 10 years ago
but I submit that this experience is not applicable today.

I do wish to comment on your quote (above): "Yesterday's technology"
is pejorative and, frankly, plain wrong, at least with regard to this
receiver. The term "yesterday's technology" is only applicable when
something clearly better has superseded that technology and, so far,
NOTHING - not DSP, SDR, or anything else - has done so.

I own a pair of Klipschorns. Have you ever heard them? I first heard
one when I was fourteen years old and I never forgot that sound. I
never, ever, thought I would ultimately be able to own a pair but, in
the event, I did. This "technology" has been on the market virtually
unchanged since 1946! 60 years! I have heard many, many speakers over
the years - including quite a few that cost FAR more than the
Klipschorns - but I have NEVER heard anything that even comes close!

The reason this speaker is still on the market over 60 years is
because it is just plain great. There is no other word for it.
$40,000.00+ speakers come - and they are touted as the "latest and
greatest" - and then they go - to be replaced by another $40,000.00+
"latest and greatest" ad infinitum and ad nauseum. (See STEREOPHILE
Magazine or THE ABSOLUTE SOUND.) Meanwhile, the Klipschorn just goes
on - continuing to produce the fantastic sound for which it is known
and people, once having heard it, continue to buy it, "yesterday's
technology" or no.

I believe the same argument can be applied to the AOR AR7030 'Plus.' A
piece of gear will be discontinued rather rapidly once sales fall off.
That the sales of this radio have not done so to an appreciable extent
is testimony to the overall high quality of its design. Twelve years
is a long time in the electronics world and the AR7030's longevity
definitely says something! Frankly, I feel your comment is specious
and a bit unworthy of you. Generally your comments are far more
reasoned.

The discussion here about filters is equally wrong - good filters of
whatever kind, properly applied and used, will not "ring" on modern
receivers. I think it almost goes without saying that anyone in the
market for either of these two receivers, or even other receivers of
their caliber, know how to use these radios and will know when to
employ any given filter. It is true that DSP receivers can have a
great many more filters than an analog receiver. And it's also true
that any extra filters for the AR7030 'Plus" will need to be installed
- but this is a very easy task to accomplish. See AOR-UK's web site
for the exact information on how to do it. But it's like gears on a
bicycle. Most riders use only a very few of the twenty-one or so gears
available to them and I suspect that most users of good shortwave
equipment use only a very few of the available filters (I generally
use only three of my five available).

This, of course, is in no way saying that the AR7030 'Plus' is
superior or inferior to the ICOM IC-756 Pro III which, I am sure, is a
fine piece of equipment. Either would probably satisfy the gentleman
who originally started this post. What I, and I suspect he, would
really like to see is a comparison of the two by someone who owns and
uses both - with both in current configurations.

The only thing I can definitely state is that the AOR AR7030 'Plus' -
even configured with several options - will cost far less than the
ICOM IC-756 Pro III and it will perform and will be constructed at
least as well. And, frankly, I do not believe that the ICOM will have
superior sound quality to the AOR; equivalent maybe - it's possible,
of course - but I routinely run the AOR's audio through my sound
system (with the aforementioned Klipschorns) and its sound must be
heard to be believed. You ought to hear the Voice of Russia's "Jazz
Show" this way. Even with an inexpensive external speaker (RCA Radio
Shack Cat. # 40-5000 - $29.95) the AOR's sound is, in a word, amazing.
In my almost fifty years of shortwave listening I have never heard
better.

Best,

Joe

Analog versus DSP

In article ,
David wrote:

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:56:15 -0800, Telamon
wrote:

Oh please. If you don't see Agilent gear in the lab, it's Rhodes and
Schwartz.

The big players in test equipment I have bought from are HP/Agilent,
Rhode & Schwarz, and Tektronix, Anritsu, and Wiltron.

R&S is now a part of Tektronix and Wiltron is now a part of Anritsu.

I have a Marconi (Aeroflex) 2945A on my bench. We have 3 R&S FSH3 (in
road cases) an Agilent and an Advantest as well.

Spectrum analyzers with tracking generators are very useful equipment.

You probably work on VHF radio communications equipment.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Analog versus DSP

In article ,
David wrote:

http://www.us.anritsu.com/downloads/...1410-00251.pdf

I just bought a MS2026A to test some low band switches. For $12K it
allowed us to use a $80K network analyzer in another test site. It works
OK but I would not call it speedy.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Analog versus DSP

On Nov 20, 11:34 am, Joe Analssandrini
wrote:
On Nov 19, 9:59 pm, wrote:

"Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now."

Dear John,

As I stated originally I do not really want to, nor can I truly, get
into an "argument" over the merits of the ICOM IC-756 Pro III vs. the
AOR AR7030 'Plus,' especially as I have no experience with the ICOM
unit. I know you tried an AOR for about a month or two 10 years ago
but I submit that this experience is not applicable today.

I do wish to comment on your quote (above): "Yesterday's technology"
is pejorative and, frankly, plain wrong, at least with regard to this
receiver. The term "yesterday's technology" is only applicable when
something clearly better has superseded that technology and, so far,
NOTHING - not DSP, SDR, or anything else - has done so.

I own a pair of Klipschorns. Have you ever heard them? I first heard
one when I was fourteen years old and I never forgot that sound. I
never, ever, thought I would ultimately be able to own a pair but, in
the event, I did. This "technology" has been on the market virtually
unchanged since 1946! 60 years! I have heard many, many speakers over
the years - including quite a few that cost FAR more than the
Klipschorns - but I have NEVER heard anything that even comes close!

The reason this speaker is still on the market over 60 years is
because it is just plain great. There is no other word for it.
$40,000.00+ speakers come - and they are touted as the "latest and
greatest" - and then they go - to be replaced by another $40,000.00+
"latest and greatest" ad infinitum and ad nauseum. (See STEREOPHILE
Magazine or THE ABSOLUTE SOUND.) Meanwhile, the Klipschorn just goes
on - continuing to produce the fantastic sound for which it is known
and people, once having heard it, continue to buy it, "yesterday's
technology" or no.

I believe the same argument can be applied to the AOR AR7030 'Plus.' A
piece of gear will be discontinued rather rapidly once sales fall off.
That the sales of this radio have not done so to an appreciable extent
is testimony to the overall high quality of its design. Twelve years
is a long time in the electronics world and the AR7030's longevity
definitely says something! Frankly, I feel your comment is specious
and a bit unworthy of you. Generally your comments are far more
reasoned.

The discussion here about filters is equally wrong - good filters of
whatever kind, properly applied and used, will not "ring" on modern
receivers. I think it almost goes without saying that anyone in the
market for either of these two receivers, or even other receivers of
their caliber, know how to use these radios and will know when to
employ any given filter. It is true that DSP receivers can have a
great many more filters than an analog receiver. And it's also true
that any extra filters for the AR7030 'Plus" will need to be installed
- but this is a very easy task to accomplish. See AOR-UK's web site
for the exact information on how to do it. But it's like gears on a
bicycle. Most riders use only a very few of the twenty-one or so gears
available to them and I suspect that most users of good shortwave
equipment use only a very few of the available filters (I generally
use only three of my five available).

This, of course, is in no way saying that the AR7030 'Plus' is
superior or inferior to the ICOM IC-756 Pro III which, I am sure, is a
fine piece of equipment. Either would probably satisfy the gentleman
who originally started this post. What I, and I suspect he, would
really like to see is a comparison of the two by someone who owns and
uses both - with both in current configurations.

The only thing I can definitely state is that the AOR AR7030 'Plus' -
even configured with several options - will cost far less than the
ICOM IC-756 Pro III and it will perform and will be constructed at
least as well. And, frankly, I do not believe that the ICOM will have
superior sound quality to the AOR; equivalent maybe - it's possible,
of course - but I routinely run the AOR's audio through my sound
system (with the aforementioned Klipschorns) and its sound must be
heard to be believed. You ought to hear the Voice of Russia's "Jazz
Show" this way. Even with an inexpensive external speaker (RCA Radio
Shack Cat. # 40-5000 - $29.95) the AOR's sound is, in a word, amazing.
In my almost fifty years of shortwave listening I have never heard
better.

Best,

Joe

I like the 21 gear bike analogy.

The AR7030 was originally designed with fidelity in mind. Much of the
audio path is stereo because there was talk of a FM stereo option that
unfortunately never materialized.

Regarding ringing, the sharper the filter, the more it rings. You
can't fight physics. I really annoys me how people think digital is
the solution to everything without really understanding the nuances.

Analog versus DSP

On Nov 20, 11:34 am, Joe Analssandrini
wrote:
On Nov 19, 9:59 pm, wrote:

"Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now."

Dear John,

As I stated originally I do not really want to, nor can I truly, get
into an "argument" over the merits of the ICOM IC-756 Pro III vs. the
AOR AR7030 'Plus,' especially as I have no experience with the ICOM
unit. I know you tried an AOR for about a month or two 10 years ago
but I submit that this experience is not applicable today.

I do wish to comment on your quote (above): "Yesterday's technology"
is pejorative and, frankly, plain wrong, at least with regard to this
receiver. The term "yesterday's technology" is only applicable when
something clearly better has superseded that technology and, so far,
NOTHING - not DSP, SDR, or anything else - has done so.

I own a pair of Klipschorns. Have you ever heard them? I first heard
one when I was fourteen years old and I never forgot that sound. I
never, ever, thought I would ultimately be able to own a pair but, in
the event, I did. This "technology" has been on the market virtually
unchanged since 1946! 60 years! I have heard many, many speakers over
the years - including quite a few that cost FAR more than the
Klipschorns - but I have NEVER heard anything that even comes close!

The reason this speaker is still on the market over 60 years is
because it is just plain great. There is no other word for it.
$40,000.00+ speakers come - and they are touted as the "latest and
greatest" - and then they go - to be replaced by another $40,000.00+
"latest and greatest" ad infinitum and ad nauseum. (See STEREOPHILE
Magazine or THE ABSOLUTE SOUND.) Meanwhile, the Klipschorn just goes
on - continuing to produce the fantastic sound for which it is known
and people, once having heard it, continue to buy it, "yesterday's
technology" or no.

I believe the same argument can be applied to the AOR AR7030 'Plus.' A
piece of gear will be discontinued rather rapidly once sales fall off.
That the sales of this radio have not done so to an appreciable extent
is testimony to the overall high quality of its design. Twelve years
is a long time in the electronics world and the AR7030's longevity
definitely says something! Frankly, I feel your comment is specious
and a bit unworthy of you. Generally your comments are far more
reasoned.

The discussion here about filters is equally wrong - good filters of
whatever kind, properly applied and used, will not "ring" on modern
receivers. I think it almost goes without saying that anyone in the
market for either of these two receivers, or even other receivers of
their caliber, know how to use these radios and will know when to
employ any given filter. It is true that DSP receivers can have a
great many more filters than an analog receiver. And it's also true
that any extra filters for the AR7030 'Plus" will need to be installed
- but this is a very easy task to accomplish. See AOR-UK's web site
for the exact information on how to do it. But it's like gears on a
bicycle. Most riders use only a very few of the twenty-one or so gears
available to them and I suspect that most users of good shortwave
equipment use only a very few of the available filters (I generally
use only three of my five available).

This, of course, is in no way saying that the AR7030 'Plus' is
superior or inferior to the ICOM IC-756 Pro III which, I am sure, is a
fine piece of equipment. Either would probably satisfy the gentleman
who originally started this post. What I, and I suspect he, would
really like to see is a comparison of the two by someone who owns and
uses both - with both in current configurations.

The only thing I can definitely state is that the AOR AR7030 'Plus' -
even configured with several options - will cost far less than the
ICOM IC-756 Pro III and it will perform and will be constructed at
least as well. And, frankly, I do not believe that the ICOM will have
superior sound quality to the AOR; equivalent maybe - it's possible,
of course - but I routinely run the AOR's audio through my sound
system (with the aforementioned Klipschorns) and its sound must be
heard to be believed. You ought to hear the Voice of Russia's "Jazz
Show" this way. Even with an inexpensive external speaker (RCA Radio
Shack Cat. # 40-5000 - $29.95) the AOR's sound is, in a word, amazing.
In my almost fifty years of shortwave listening I have never heard
better.

Best,

Joe

RCA PRO-X33AV Speaker -Discontinued-
RadioShack Cat # 40-5000
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1327
http://support.radioshack.com/support_audio/54884.htm

RCA Pro-X33AV 2-Way Die-Cast Mini Speaker
RadioShack Cat # 400-5000
http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc60/60543.htm

Analog versus DSP

wrote
Regarding ringing, the sharper the filter, the more it rings. You
can't fight physics. I really annoys me how people think digital is
the solution to everything without really understanding the nuances.

You have obviously never worked a top line radio like the Icom IC-756
PRO III on CW with a narrow DSP filter. I assure you that even as
narrow as 50 hertz
THERE IS NO RINGING
If you don't believe me I am quite prepared to e-mail anyone an MP3
recording of the 50 Hertz filter working a beacon.

I also have many DX mates who work CW beacons and use Timewave DSP
filters right down to 8 hertz and I have never heard them complain of
ringing.

John Plimmer, Montagu, Western Cape Province, South Africa
South 33 d 47 m 32 s, East 20 d 07 m 32 s
RX Icom IC-756 PRO III with MW mods
Drake SW8 & ERGO software
Sony 7600D, GE SRIII, Redsun RP2100
BW XCR 30, Sangean 803A.
Antenna's RF Systems DX 1 Pro Mk II, Datong AD-270
Kiwa MW Loop, PAORDT Roelof mini-whip
http://www.dxing.info/about/dxers/plimmer.dx

Analog versus DSP

Excellent information! This has really helped me in my decision making
process.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Icom, but I have a white paper on
the 7030+ on order from the folks who publish Passport to World Band
Radio, so I think I'll hold my final decision until I read it.

In fact, if the review in the while paper is good, I might just invoke
Jerry's Law: "If you can't decide between two choices, buy both!"