On Jul 12, 2:22*am, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message

...





"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news
The station, without knowing it, failed because it was a Class IV on 1340
in a very sparsely populated county... where even today, a C2 FM only
puts a decent signal over 60,000 persons. And that county, unlike in the
50's, is now invaded by many usable FMs from other nearby locations...
yet it had a monopoly when it went on in 1950.

1) *KAPA was a damn fine station, with great local flavor and a good
community presence. I listened to it while I lived there most of the time,
even though KOL in Seattle put in a very good signal to the south, and
continued to listen when I lived in Astoria, because the signal they put
in there was quite good, and they had a better program than the (then) two
locals and a semi-local (KVAS, KAST and KSWB).

The problem is that, given a station with good programming that is
entertaining, listeners abandon "community presence" and "local flavor"
instantly just as they abandoned the local hamburger joint when McDonalds
openened.


that is changing fast. in my metro area, even during this brutal
recession, i am seeing old time restaurants opening again. i just ate
at one, nice service, good food, and the place was packed.


Lots of really good local AMs have been swept away by big FM signals coming
on the air in the 70's and 80's. The smart ones bought FMs, too. The others
failed and go through new owners every few years.


that happens in any business. it does not mean that we like
mediocrity, and corporate blandness.


2) To quote a certain shill person "nobody listens to radio outside the
64dBu city contours" and "stations don't care about anyone outside their
own city contours... they do not count in the ratings." *I know there was
other BS in there somewhere..

The minute that little market was penetrated by numerous FMs it was over for
the Class IV no matter what you think of its programming.


you are citing a different problem than what we are discussing. then
you say they went under not because of the programming, but because
f.m. became popular right? you cannot have this both ways.


And analysis of millions of listener weeks of recorded listening over nearly
a decade shows that there is very little listening outside the 64 dbu of FMs
at work or at home, and much of that is because the radios of the last few
decades can't pick up much of anything less than that with acceptable
quality. When I see nearly no exceptions that would validate your
contention, I must conclude that you are imagining things.

hmmmm, are you telling me that the f.m. band, cannot play a large
wide selection of music, is there something wrong with the spectrum,
it can only broadcast corporate chosen bland conservative playlists?

On Jul 12, 9:10*am, dave wrote:
David Eduardo wrote:

The idea that there are musicologist-type DJs rummaging through
thousands of records is a myth, and in the few cases such exists or has
existed, most have failed.

Myth? How so? *Community stations have such programmers to this day.
When I was in Top 40 (50 actually) radio in the '60s we were told where
to choose the next record from, e.g. top 10 current out of the top of
the hour ID; *power oldie out of news headlines, etc. *We were never
told to play a specific song at a specific time.

We had music meetings where we auditioned new records and informally
voted on them. *We discovered and broke new acts. *Our musical knowledge
and opinion was valued.

I blame Lee Abrams more than Ron Jacobs.

thank you for your statement. its what i saw as a kid also. the
truth, its refreshing. back in the 60's, in my area, garage bands were
the thing. my local radio exposed them, and many went national,
remember the trashmen and surfer bird, the gentrys "keep on dancing"
the castaways 'liar liar", today, they would never get heard.
conservative corporate america, is looking for the next well built,
screamer, no matter what sex, who cannot carry a tune, but screams,
and the screaming does not even rhymes, and if it does, its sounds so
out of place and simple that it only appeals to the immature.
we are arguing with a apologetic corporatist.

On Jul 12, 10:14*am, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"dave" wrote in message

m...

David Eduardo wrote:

The idea that there are musicologist-type DJs rummaging through thousands
of records is a myth, and in the few cases such exists or has existed,
most have failed.

Myth? How so? *Community stations have such programmers to this day.

I have trouble documenting the effectiveness of this... since, even when one
creates custom geography areas, 99% of these suckers seem to have no
detectable listeners. This is, again, "if a tree falls in a forrest...."

When I was in Top 40 (50 actually) radio in the '60s we were told where to
choose the next record from, e.g. top 10 current out of the top of the
hour ID; *power oldie out of news headlines, etc. *We were never told to
play a specific song at a specific time.

That is how it worked even in the largest markets until computers took over
the manual job of selection. Still, you chose out of 10 songs that were on
the playlist at the top of the hour, not among thousands of songs. All you
did was manually shuffle them.

The defect is that a person given this power, as limited as it is, to
shuffle will skip the songs they don't like quite often... and never play
them, although much of the audience may wish to hear them.



We had music meetings where we auditioned new records and informally voted
on them. *We discovered and broke new acts. *Our musical knowledge and
opinion was valued.

That, in some form or another, is still how new music is picked. Only now,
we know fairly quickly with things like callout, if we had a hit or a miss.
And we get the bad songs out of the system early. 99% of "favor play" gets
nuked when the listeners vote .



I blame Lee Abrams more than Ron Jacobs.

Neither created the systems for identifying hits. And "hit" in radio simply
means any song listeners want to hear, today. And, conversely, it means any
song that a significant percentage of listeners would not like to hear and
which might cause them to tune out is not played.

ROTFLOL!!!! wow, you can really land on your feet. you got called out.

On Jul 12, 10:57*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
Nickname unavailable wrote:
who cares what some right wing lying nut cases say. the truth is,
that bush broke the law,

yes

and trampled on the constitution,

Yes

he should be in jail for high crimes.

and YES!

thank you.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 1:42 am, "David Eduardo" wrote:

The problem with stations with thousands of songs is that nobody listens
to
them.

you cannot have it both ways. you say that a broad selection means
that people will not listen, yet in the same breath out of the other
side of your mouth, you say people are turning to the net in droves
for just that sort of selection.

I said no such thing. When people go to the net, for music, they go to find
a selection of songs that they personally like. They do not generally go for
a large number of songs... they go for their personal favorites.

all one has to do is take a peak at a download site, its full of
music and movies, and lots of them are never seen nor heard on
american corporate owned media.

And that is because the word "broadcasting" contains the word "broad" which
means that a radio station must appeal to a fairly large group of people
with some common taste; obscure music and deep cuts appeals almost to the
individual and not a group.

When you find out the high scoring songs with an individual, you will find a
group of songs that may not be on the radio. But you do the same with
another individual, and the list of songs not on the radio will be there,
but will be different songs. by the time you are through, there will be lots
of songs one or two individuals like, but which nobody else likes or wants
to hear.

Individuals buy music, while groups listen to the radio. The fringe songs a
few like but the majority dislike or don't even know have no place on radio
because the job of radio is to please masses, not each person individually.

And 90% of US radio stations are owned by individuals, families, small
partnerships and small companies. They program the same way because they
understand that listeners in their majority do not want what you suggest.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 1:52 am, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
KSWB).

2) To quote a certain shill person "nobody listens to radio outside the
64dBu city contours" and "stations don't care about anyone outside their
own
city contours... they do not count in the ratings." I know there was other
BS in there somewhere..

when i was a kid, there was a radio station in of all place, little
rock arkansas, i am in minneapolis/st.paul, that rock station would
come in late at night, and really good if it was a clear night, and
they would play all sorts of rock music that was obscure, and that was
back in the 60's and 70's. i really miss them.

The reason why folks listened to out of town stations 50 years ago is that
there were still no Top 40 (or other "hip" formats) in many markets. So kids
in Ruidoso, NM listend to KOMA from Oklahoma City and those in Northport,
Michigan, listened to WLS and so on.

Now, there are many more stations. For example, in the case of Northport,
they had two AMs giving day, but not night service, in 1960. Today, it has
over a dozen usable signals day and night. They have 8 or 9 distinct formats
to chose from, and have no need to listen to static and fading on distant
AMs.

they used to play a song about hemp rope, and the hippe that craved
the rope, it was hilarious. today if you dare criticize a
conservative, you are banned from air time, censored like the nazi's
used to do. conservatism, just say no, its the healthy thing to do.

Yes, I am sure that not-so-subtle references to drugs amuse you... uh,
pardon me, befuddle you.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...


then it shows you that concentration had to start somewhere. last
time i checked, oslo norway, pop. a little over 3 mil. still has 3
dailys.

As I mentioned before, what sustains European papers, and will for a while
longer, is the immense use of public transit systems. What percentage of
newspaper users buy the paper to read on the train or bus?

No US city, save New York, has anywhere near the use of public transit, and
most of the use is by those who can't afford cars. What drives public
transit in Europe is far denser population, resulting in an ease in creating
transit routes very near each person's residence.

Without public transit, the reading time for papers would be reduced
enormously and many papers would fail.

In Buenos Aires, the southernmost city in Europe, one major daily, Clarín
observed that nearly half its daily circulation was bought at Subte (subway)
stations and bus and train stops. And that is why in Europe and Latin
America, Sunday circulation falls way off, while in the US it is much higher
than the Monday-Firday press run.

The US depends on home delivery for most circulation... in other parts of
the world, there is often no home delivery... all copies are sold on the
street.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
Must have been a bad station in a small market or a really bad on in a
bigger one. In any case, nobody who knows radio would call the person on
the
air a "jockey." Jockeys ride horses. Disk Jockeys may be called DJ's or
Jocks, but they ain't called jockeys.


minneapolis/st.paul. hardly small. it was am radio then. today they
are talk, but back then, they were the rock power house.

I presume you mean "rock and roll" powerhouse. "rock" stations were an FM
phenomenon, starting in the very late 60's.

Nit picking on terminology aside, the two Top 40 powerhouses in the Twin
Cities were KDWB and KDGY (630 and 1130 AM)

KDWB was a Crowell Collier station, and like KEWB and KFWB, it had a very
limited Top 40 playlist and never deviated from it. WDGY was owned by Storz,
where format violations were subject to immediate dismissal.

Of course, KDWB is no more... the allocation moved once as far as Wisconsin,
and is now a small station doing Regional Mexican programming..

today, corporate america has ruined not only radio, but t.v. and the
papers. they have loaded them up with debt, and severe restrictions
that make them bland, conservative in nature, safe.

There are 14,000 radio stations in the US, and perhaps 1000 are burdened
with seemingly irresolvable debt issues. None would have had any trouble
were it not for the recession, so you are doing the equivalent of blaming
debt for the failure of Chrysler and GM, when it was the perfect storm of
labor commitments, bad designs and horrible quality that came about due to
the recession.


and most are owned by a few companies, that loaded them up on debt
because of the purchase price, and gave us a bad product, a product
that was costing them customers before the recession. and as we always
see with conservative economics, they cannot pay their bills. who
would have ever thought.

Untrue. If you go down in size to groups that own 50 stations or less, which
excludes only about 10 or 11 companies, you will see that about 12,200
stations are not owned by big companies.

There are, among them, only a couple that are severely burdened by debt,
representing maybe 1000 stations. On the other hand, every station,
newspaper, corner story and working person is burdened by the economy. Any
bankruptcies are due to the economy, not the business model.

Yes, a few companies are in trouble in radio due to debt. Most are not.

we shall see.

We can already see. There are as many endangered single station Ma and Pa
operations that can't pay the bills today as there are big "corporate"
stations.

And among the biggest, there are those like Cox and CBS that have no debt
issues and use the very same programming models because they work and please
listeners.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 2:22 am, "David Eduardo" wrote:

you are citing a different problem than what we are discussing. then
you say they went under not because of the programming, but because
f.m. became popular right? you cannot have this both ways.

Brenda Ann made two NUMBERED points... one about programming, the other
about the facility. In this case, the cause of the demise of the station had
to do with it being AM when AM began dying as well as loose, uncontrolled
programming in the face of more structured and focused FMs.

And analysis of millions of listener weeks of recorded listening over
nearly
a decade shows that there is very little listening outside the 64 dbu of
FMs
at work or at home, and much of that is because the radios of the last few
decades can't pick up much of anything less than that with acceptable
quality. When I see nearly no exceptions that would validate your
contention, I must conclude that you are imagining things.

hmmmm, are you telling me that the f.m. band, cannot play a large
wide selection of music, is there something wrong with the spectrum,
it can only broadcast corporate chosen bland conservative playlists?

FMs have essentially all the music audience, so there is no issue between AM
and FM here. It is just a radio issue, with no band distinction.

Radio uses techniques to determine the appeal of each individual song in a
specific genre (or "format") and they play, as a rule, all the songs that
have wide appeal and don't play the ones that a significant numbers of
listeners don't want to hear. In each format, there are different numbers of
songs that tend to define these formats, in every market, often even in
different countries.

Country stations average in the 600 to 700 songs, Tallahassee or Spokane.
Soft ACs go from 300 to 350 songs. CHR's (today's term for Top 40) around
120. And so on. The reason there are no more is that listeners as a group
don't like any more songs, no matter how deep the research goes.

And every so often there is a station that plays 1500 songs in a 700 song
format, and dies, proving the rule. The reason playlists are the size they
are is that the listeners who selected the songs indicated that that was all
they liked enough to play.

David Eduardo wrote:

And that is because the word "broadcasting" contains the word "broad"
which means that a radio station must appeal to a fairly large group of
people with some common taste; obscure music and deep cuts appeals
almost to the individual and not a group.

Individuals buy music, while groups listen to the radio. The fringe
songs a few like but the majority dislike or don't even know have no
place on radio because the job of radio is to please masses, not each
person individually.

This is where you are completely wrong. Radio is one-on-one. People
listen to the radio alone, or in very small groups.
----
Freeform stations

Freeform radio stations in the United States:
This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

* k94rocks.com Your Rock Station US,VIRGINIA
* KANM (Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas)
* KAOS (Olympia, Washington)
* KBOO (Portland, Oregon)
* KCMP (St. Paul, Minnesota)
* KCR (San Diego State University, San Diego, California)
* KDVS (University of California, Davis, Davis, California)
* KEOL (Eastern Oregon University, La Grande, Oregon)
* KEXP (Seattle, WA)
* KFJC (Foothill College, Los Altos Hills, California)
* KHUM (Ferndale, California)
* KJHK (University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas)
* KMNR (Missouri University of Science and Technology, Rolla, Missouri)
* KLOS (Los Angeles, California)
* KPSU (Portland State University, Portland, Oregon)
* KRFH (Humboldt State University, Arcata, California)
* KRUI (University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa)
* KTEC (Oregon Institute of Technology, Klamath Falls, Oregon)
* KTRU (Rice University, Houston, Texas)
* K-UTE (University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah)
* KUGS (Western Washington University, Bellingham, Washington)
* KUOI (University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho)
* KVRX (University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas)
* KVSC (St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, Minnesota)
* KWRP (Pecos, New Mexico)
* KWUR (St. Louis, Missouri)
* WARC (Allegheny College, Meadville, Pennsylvania)
* WBGU (Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, Ohio)
* WCBN (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan)
* KCRW (Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, California)
* WCNI (Connecticut College, New London, Connecticut)
* WESS (East Stroudsburg University, East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania)
* WESU (Wesleyan University, Middletown, Connecticut)
* WETX-LP (Tri-Cities, Tennessee)
* WEVL (Memphis, Tennessee)
* WEXP (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)
* WFMU (Jersey City, New Jersey)
* WGDR (Plainfield, Vermont)
* WHRW (Binghamton University, New York)
* WIKD-LP (Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach,
Florida)
* WKDU (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)
* WLRA (Lewis University, Romeoville, Illinois)
* WMBR (MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts)
* WMFO (Tufts University, Medford, Massachusetts)
* WMSC (Montclair State University, Upper Montclair, New Jersey)
* WMSR (Miami University, Oxford, Ohio)
* WMUC (University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland)
* WNJR (Washington & Jefferson College, Washington, Pennsylvania)
* WOBC (Oberlin College, Oberlin, Ohio)
* WPKN (Bridgeport, Connecticut)
* WPRK (Rollins College, Winter Park, Florida)
* WRCT (Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
* WRFL (University of Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky)
* WRFW (University of Wisconsin-River Falls)
* WRNC-LP (Northland College (Wisconsin), Ashland, Wisconsin)
* WRUR (University of Rochester, Rochester, New York)
* WSPN (Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, New York)
* WRVU (Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee)
* WSGR-FM (St. Clair County Community College, Port Huron, Michigan)
* WSUM (University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin)
* WUMD (University of Michigan–Dearborn, Dearborn, Michigan)
* WUSB (Stony Brook University SUNY, Stony Brook, New York)
* WVBR (Ithaca, New York)
* WXBC (Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, New York)
* WXDU (Duke University, Durham, North Carolina)
* WXYC (UNC Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina)
* WZRD (Northeastern Illinois University, Chicago, Illinois)
* WKCO (Kenyon College, Gambier, Ohio)

Freeform radio stations in Canada:

* CKCU (Ottawa, Ontario)
* CKUT (Montreal, Quebec)
* CKRL (Quebec, Quebec) is the longest running french speaking
community radio station
* CKIA (Quebec, Quebec)

Freeform radio stations in Europe:

* Radio Centraal (Antwerp, Belgium)

[edit] Freeform radio vs. eclectic radio

Eclectic radio describes radio programming encompassing diverse music
genres. Unlike freeform radio, the eclectic radio format involves
prescribed playlists. While freeform radio stands in contrast to
commercial radio formats, a number of commercial radio stations offer
programs showcasing an eclectic variety of music.

Some eclectic radio stations in the United States a

* KALX (Berkeley, California)
* KCRW (Santa Monica, California)
* KEOS (College Station, Texas)
* KEXP (Seattle, Washington)
* KFAI (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
* KGLT (Bozeman, Montana)
* KNYE (Pahrump, Nevada)
* KUOM (University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota)
* KUSF (San Francisco, California)
* KUT (Austin, Texas)
* KXUA (Fayetteville, Arkansas)
* WERS (Boston, Massachusetts)
* WHPK (University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois)
* WJCU (University Heights, Ohio)
* WUSM (Hattiesburg, Mississippi)
* WXPN (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)
-wikipedia