On Sep 5, 9:50*am, Kevin Alfred Strom
wrote:
Richard Evans wrote:
Drewdove wrote:

IMHO too many people laughed off complaints that the digital carriers
would
cause interference to first adjacent analogs without realizing these same
adjacent would interfere with the digital carriers rendering HD
useless in
certain (many?) situations.

As far as I'm concerned, allowing a signal to be broadcast, at a
frequency that is already allocated to something else, is always going
to be a bad idea (unless it is a system using very directional
antennas). From what I've read in this NG. HD-Radio does just that. It
ends up allowing digital signals to be transmitted on frequencies
already allocated to analogue signals. Whoever thought that would be OK,
obviously either doesn't understand radio, or simply doesn't give a sh*t
about the consequences.

Richard E.

The big boys pushed IBOC because they wanted to do whatever they
could to _prevent_ the creation of a new all-digital band. They
feared that such a new band would level the playing field so the
small broadcaster would have just as good coverage as they did. That
was an intolerable and frightening idea to them.

See

http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/2009...rom-the-start/

for more information.

With all good wishes,

Kevin, WB4AIO.
--http://kevinalfredstrom.com/

Follow the Money . . .

Follow the Politicians Following The Money . . .

Watch the FCC : jump,,, Jump... J U M P ! ! !

On Sep 5, 10:54*am, Richard Evans
wrote:
John Higdon wrote:

Don't worry...it isn't a "book". It is one of Radio World's usual
half-assed articles that pretends to be technical. Believe me, real
radio engineers don't learn from Radio World.

And I don't need any book or article to know that 2 different radio
signals on the same frequency, is not a good idea.

IBOC : A Broadcast System : Designed To Jam
the Fringe-Distant Competition

It is the IBOC Signal that effects the Broadcasting
Radio Station Itself.

It's the IBOC Signal Side-Bands that effectively JAMS
Both the Adjacent Channels for 10+ kHz at 1%
and 20+ kHz at 10%

The result is AM/MW Radio DX is 'o-u-t' with IBOC
and Local AM/MW Radio Stations have a Lock-on
the Local Broadcast Market by JAMMING all the
Fringe and Distant Adjacent Channels by using IBOC.

IBOC a System that Allows you to Jam the next
door neighboring Metro Area's Radio Competition
right out of Your Local Radio Market

IBOC : A Broadcast System : Designed To Jam
the Fringe-Distant Competition

iboc - it's about business ~ RHF

On Sep 5, 11:56*am, SMS wrote:
On 9/5/2010 9:50 AM, Kevin Alfred Strom wrote:

The big boys pushed IBOC because they wanted to do whatever they could
to _prevent_ the creation of a new all-digital band. They feared that
such a new band would level the playing field so the small broadcaster
would have just as good coverage as they did. That was an intolerable
and frightening idea to them.

That's part of it, but they also did not want to have to pay for the
additional spectrum on a new band.

- For all the misinformation that our favorite troll promulgates here,
the
- fact is that FM IBOC works very well indeed. There have been very
few
- complaints about interference, and the few complaints that there
were,
- were found to have no merit because the interference occurred
outside
- the protected contour (though this was before the power increase was
- granted).

That is because FM Radio has a well defined and
'limited' Broadcast Service Area unlike AM Radio;
which can go far farther then authorized on a nightly
basis each and every night.

Plus FM Radio has NO large legacy culture of DXers
and DXing like the AM/MW Radio Band has/had for
many decades.

few search for distant voices . . .
on the fm radio band ~ RHF

On Sep 5, 4:32*pm, RHF wrote:
On Sep 5, 10:54*am, Richard Evans
wrote:

John Higdon wrote:

Don't worry...it isn't a "book". It is one of Radio World's usual
half-assed articles that pretends to be technical. Believe me, real
radio engineers don't learn from Radio World.

And I don't need any book or article to know that 2 different radio
signals on the same frequency, is not a good idea.

IBOC : A Broadcast System : Designed To Jam
the Fringe-Distant Competition

- It isn't the IBOC Signal that effects the Broadcasting
- Radio Station Itself.

It's the IBOC Signal Side-Bands that effectively JAMS
Both the Adjacent Channels for 10+ kHz at 1%
and 20+ kHz at 10%

The result is AM/MW Radio DX is 'o-u-t' with IBOC
and Local AM/MW Radio Stations have a Lock-on
the Local Broadcast Market by JAMMING all the
Fringe and Distant Adjacent Channels by using IBOC.

IBOC a System that Allows you to Jam the next
door neighboring Metro Area's Radio Competition
right out of Your Local Radio Market

IBOC : A Broadcast System : Designed To Jam
the Fringe-Distant Competition

iboc - it's about business ~ RHF
*.
*.

On Sep 5, 11:56*am, SMS wrote:
On 9/5/2010 9:50 AM, Kevin Alfred Strom wrote:

The big boys pushed IBOC because they wanted to do whatever they could
to _prevent_ the creation of a new all-digital band. They feared that
such a new band would level the playing field so the small broadcaster
would have just as good coverage as they did. That was an intolerable
and frightening idea to them.

That's part of it, but they also did not want to have to pay for the
additional spectrum on a new band.

For all the misinformation that our favorite troll promulgates here, the
fact is that FM IBOC works very well indeed. There have been very few
complaints about interference, and the few complaints that there were,
were found to have no merit because the interference occurred outside
the protected contour (though this was before the power increase was
granted).

I'm sure our favorite troll is well aware of what this law firm is
doing. There is no lawsuit, and there is unlikely to be one. They are
trying to see if they can wrangle some kind of money from BMW and other
automakers.

Once these auto companies pay out to the lawyers, they sure as hell
are not going to install HD radios again since there is no chance in
hell to make this stinker of a system work.

SMS wrote:
On 9/5/2010 1:44 PM, Kevin Alfred Strom wrote:

Many people, myself included, listened to stations far outside their
so-called "protected contours" for the vastly increased choice it
offered (and invested in superior equipment for doing so).

When were those stations and their out-of area listeners guaranteed that
they'd be able to be received far outside their protected contour
forever? The protected contours are there for a reason. Whatever changes
are made that don't affect a station's protected contour are fair game.
[...]



Shoehorning in another station is one thing.

Allowing, and even encouraging, existing stations to make their
signals multiple times wider with gigantic white noise generators is
quite another.

It's the same mentality that says that requiring switching power
supplies to have sufficient filtering so that no audible noise is
produced on nearby sensitive AM receivers is "too expensive" -- and
that, to save the Chinese factories and importers a few cents, we're
just going to accept turning the AM and HF bands into a sea of
buzzing noises.

After all, the locals can still be heard inside their "protected
contours"! Anything else is "fair game." Right?

So just take the pristine bands -- where you used to be able to hear
galactic noise when signals weren't present, and even the weakest
signals were a joy to listen to if you had a good antenna and
receiver -- and fill them up with digital hash.

Fair game? I call it very bad engineering. I call it gross misuse of
a natural resource. And I call it sick.





I find all the lies about IBOC fascinating
[...]



It isn't a lie that IBOC is an inferior system whose only rational
justification is that the money-men wanted to preserve their
superiority in the existing tiered power hierarchy.



With all good wishes,


Kevin Alfred Strom.
--
http://kevinalfredstrom.com/

In article ,
SMS wrote:

When were those stations and their out-of area listeners guaranteed that
they'd be able to be received far outside their protected contour
forever? The protected contours are there for a reason. Whatever changes
are made that don't affect a station's protected contour are fair game.

So...so...you acknowledge that interference *within* protected contours
is *not* fair game??? Super! I eagerly await your comments on John's
repeated mention of IBOC interference to KKDV's protected signal. Over
to you, Steven....


Our favorite troll is a fascinating study in cluelessness. Does he
actually believe that a law firm trolling for class action suits will
have even the slightest effect on the success or failure of digital radio?

I have no idea who "our favorite troll" is, having killfiled so many
of them (pro and con IBOC) months and months ago. If one of them annoys
you so much that he has become your "favorite," perhaps it's time for
you to filter him out.


Patty

On 9/6/10 4:47 PM, SMS wrote:
On 9/5/2010 12:10 PM, Richard Evans wrote:
SMS wrote:


No, you don't have to do anything. If you were interested in
understanding the technology of IBOC rather than making uninformed
comments about it, it would be a wise thing to do. But apparently
you're content to talk about things you "know" that aren't actually
true. Whatever lights your board.

I know as much as I need to know.

Yes, that's the crux of the problem.

You don't want to hear the simple truth: no broadcast system can sound
properly at 40 or 48 kbps. Both Sirius and HD use rates like that, or
less. And therefore they sound bad. I've heard them both and yes: in
practice even on a rental car stereo they do not match the FM produced
by the same receiver and speakers.

gr, hwh

On 9/6/2010 8:30 AM, Patty Winter wrote:

So...so...you acknowledge that interference *within* protected contours
is *not* fair game??? Super! I eagerly await your comments on John's
repeated mention of IBOC interference to KKDV's protected signal. Over
to you, Steven....

John "mentions" lots of things that are of questionable validity. If
there is IBOC interference to a protected signal then a complaint needs
to be filed with the FCC. I searched the FCC database of complaints and
couldn't find any complaint about this for KKDV. The procedure for
filing complaints can be found at
"http://www.fcc.gov/eb/broadcast/interference.html".

I have no idea who "our favorite troll" is, having killfiled so many
of them (pro and con IBOC) months and months ago. If one of them annoys
you so much that he has become your "favorite," perhaps it's time for
you to filter him out.

Did that a long time ago. Unfortunately people keep following-up to his
posts and I'm hesitant to kill-file them as well.

hwh wrote:
You don't want to hear the simple truth: no broadcast system can sound
properly at 40 or 48 kbps. Both Sirius and HD use rates like that, or
less. And therefore they sound bad. I've heard them both and yes: in
practice even on a rental car stereo they do not match the FM produced
by the same receiver and speakers.

That's a codec problem. With currently available codecs, you can get FM radio
quality with 64k with AAC (aka MP4 audio). This is roughly equivalent to
128k MP3, which is good enough for a car radio or tiny earphones, but not
CD or even CRO2 Dolby cassete quality.

Since I don't know what codec they use, I can't say what they need to increase
their bit rates to, but assuming they do (or could) use AAC, they would have
to cut their number of channels by as much as one third to compensate for
the higher bit rate.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
To help restaurants, as part of the "stimulus package", everyone must order
dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-)