Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On 2/11/11 13:22 , bpnjensen wrote:
So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Weigh the wire. The counterweight will find a balance with the
weight of the wire, allowing an amount of sag equal to the length of
the counterweight support. Doubling the counterweight will halve the
amount of sag. Redoubling will halve the sag, again. Don't exceed
the tensile strength of the wire and start with about 4 times the
weight of the wire.

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On 02/11/2011 11:22 AM, bpnjensen wrote:
So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Gallon jug of water

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On Feb 11, 2:11*pm, dave wrote:
On 02/11/2011 11:22 AM, bpnjensen wrote:



So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? *The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. *The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. *For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Gallon jug of water

Dave that's a good handy and free starting point.

Except if you Live where the Water might Freeze {Oops!}
-and- You may be getting Snow and Ice on your
Antenna Wire and Loading it down down down,,,

Old Plastic Bleach Bottle the Kind with a Handle
built into it. Fill the Bottle with about 3~5~10+
Pounds of Small Rocks {or Gravel}. Place the Cap
back-on the Bottle and and Tie your Antenna
Tension Rope End to the Handle of the Bottle.
* Option Tape the Handle of the Bottle with Duck
Tape to Reinforce it if needed.
* Option Spray Paint the Bottle Green Brown to
blend in with the surroundings if needed.
-service- These Bottles usually last about 3-Years.
-Safety- Use a 5~6 Foot Step Ladder and Position
the Bottle at around7~8 Feet or more above Ground
so that it is not a Head Injury Hazard.
-Rigging- Use a small Pulley to Rig the Tension Rope
End through so that the natural dynamic movement
of the Antenna Wire and the Counter-Weight Bottle
can occur as it happens due to Weather.
http://g8jnj.webs.com/Multi%20antenn...igs%28s%29.gif

BpnJ - Since you live in the SF Bay go to a Fishing
'Bait' Shop and buy a few Salmon / Down Rigger
Weights {3~5 Pound Lead Balls}
http://s.ecrater.com/stores/118075/4...4a_118075n.jpg
http://cdn.sella.co.nz/images/thumb/...0j-640x500.jpg

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On Feb 11, 12:16*pm, "D. Peter Maus" wrote:
On 2/11/11 13:22 , bpnjensen wrote:









So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? *The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. *The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. *For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

* *Weigh the wire. The counterweight will find a balance with the
weight of the wire, allowing an amount of sag equal to the length of
the counterweight support. Doubling the counterweight will halve the
amount of sag. Redoubling will halve the sag, again. Don't exceed
the tensile strength of the wire and start with about 4 times the
weight of the wire.

Well, the wire's already up there - but I don't think the whole roll
weighed but a couple pounds, and this is about 2/3 of the roll in the
air (maybe 65 horz feet). So, maybe something like 8 pounds will be a
good starting point. Water in any mass doesn't really freeze here (at
most we get thin ice on the birdbath, and then only about 5 or 6 times
a winter), so that gallon jug of water would be a good starting weight
-

IIRC, the tensile strength of 14 gauge wire is pretty high, over 100
lbs - isn't that right? So any reasonable weight (like less than 20)
is not liable to break it.

Good ideas, Peter and Roy and Dave - thanks.

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On 02/11/2011 03:52 PM, RHF wrote:
..
-service- These Bottles usually last about 3-Years.
-Safety- Use a 5~6 Foot Step Ladder and Position
the Bottle at around7~8 Feet or more above Ground
so that it is not a Head Injury Hazard.

So you want the bottle full of rocks so when the UV dissolves it the
rocks fall on people? How about a glass jug on UV treated Dacron antenna
rope?
.

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On Feb 11, 6:11*pm, dave wrote:
On 02/11/2011 03:52 PM, RHF wrote:
.

- - -service- These Bottles usually last about 3-Years.
- - -Safety- Use a 5~6 Foot Step Ladder and Position
- - the Bottle at around7~8 Feet or more above Ground
- - so that it is not a Head Injury Hazard.

- So you want the bottle full of rocks so when the
- UV dissolves it the rocks fall on people?

Dave -which-part-of-
"-service- These Bottles usually last about 3-Years."

- How about a glass jug on UV treated Dacron
- antenna rope?

Dave : ? "Glass Jug" ?
Neighbor's Kid with a Pellet Gun

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On 2/11/2011 2:22 PM, bpnjensen wrote:
So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Let me point you in a different direction...

When you ask about a weight, that implies you will also be using a
pulley (block, for you sailors). This is another piece to purchase and
another piece to rust up and fail, at least the hardware store
galvanized ones. Don't ask what the ones for sailboats cost.

I have had a 130 foot dipole (stranded 14 ga.) up between two trees
since 1994, with no failures here in the great Midwest (lots o' wind,
lots o' snow).

I considered the weight/pulley arrangement but ultimately decided on
using a screen door spring at each end. These are typically a foot (or
a little more) long and readily available at any hardware store. I would
recommend you pay a buck or two more and get the ones that are chrome
plated and then spray paint it too, for a little additional
weatherproofing (belt AND suspenders). Works fine, lasts a long time.

Wire antennas again - counterweight question
 

On Feb 12, 6:38*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
On 2/11/2011 2:22 PM, bpnjensen wrote:









So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? *The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. *The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. *For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Let me point you in a different direction...

When you ask about a weight, that implies you will also be using a
pulley (block, for you sailors). This is another piece to purchase and
another piece to rust up and fail, at least the hardware store
galvanized ones. Don't ask what the ones for sailboats cost.

I have had a 130 foot dipole (stranded 14 ga.) up between two trees
since 1994, with no failures here in the great Midwest (lots o' wind,
lots o' snow).

I considered the weight/pulley arrangement but ultimately decided on
using a screen door spring at each end. These are typically *a foot (or
a little more) long and readily available at any hardware store. I would
recommend you pay a buck or two more and get the ones that are chrome
plated and then spray paint it too, for a little additional
weatherproofing (belt AND suspenders). Works fine, lasts a long time.

Hi, Joe- I have thought about a spring - those screen door springs
provide enough tension and travel? I expect up to about 3 feet travel
on that tree in the highest winds we get here.

To be honest, a counterweight is not a problem as to position and
safety. A spring might be a little bit neater if it has enough
strength and give. Neither one sounds very expensive.

Thanks, Bruce

California's 'Golden' Railroad History
 

On Feb 13, 8:56*am, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:03*am, RHF wrote:



On Feb 12, 10:03*pm, bpnjensen wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:38*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 2/11/2011 2:22 PM, bpnjensen wrote:

So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? *The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. *The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. *For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Let me point you in a different direction...

When you ask about a weight, that implies you will also be using a
pulley (block, for you sailors). This is another piece to purchase and
another piece to rust up and fail, at least the hardware store
galvanized ones. Don't ask what the ones for sailboats cost.

I have had a 130 foot dipole (stranded 14 ga.) up between two trees
since 1994, with no failures here in the great Midwest (lots o' wind,
lots o' snow).

I considered the weight/pulley arrangement but ultimately decided on
using a screen door spring at each end. These are typically *a foot (or
a little more) long and readily available at any hardware store. I would
recommend you pay a buck or two more and get the ones that are chrome
plated and then spray paint it too, for a little additional
weatherproofing (belt AND suspenders). Works fine, lasts a long time.

Hi, Joe- I have thought about a spring - those screen door springs
provide enough tension and travel? I expect up to about 3 feet travel
on that tree in the highest winds we get here.

To be honest, a counterweight is not a problem as to position and
safety. *A spring might be a little bit neater if it has enough
strength and give. *Neither one sounds very expensive.

Thanks, Bruce

OSH Hardware* has Good Quality Chromed Pulleys
with Brass Roller; Poly & Nylon Rope and a fair
selection of Zinc Plated Springs of all Diameters,
Lengths and Gauges. ~ RHF

Pulley : Chrome-Plated Zinc Die-Cast Housing
and Swivel Eyehttp://www.fdsons.com/popup_image.php?pID=19638http://www.acehardware...

* ACE, *Home Depot and Lowe's too.
*.

- OSH is my store, not the least of which because
- they have great free train calendars :-)

Free Train Calendars :-) :o) :-) :o) :-) :o) :-) :o) ~ RHF

California's 'Golden' Railroad History
 

On Feb 13, 7:36*pm, RHF wrote:
On Feb 13, 8:56*am, bpnjensen wrote:









On Feb 13, 4:03*am, RHF wrote:

On Feb 12, 10:03*pm, bpnjensen wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:38*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 2/11/2011 2:22 PM, bpnjensen wrote:

So, a mechanical question this time -

On a relatively short run of wire of fairly light weight (in this
case, 14 gauge stranded, insulated, and about 60-65 feet horizontal),
what's a good estimated counterweight for the far end? *The wire
itself is light, but the counterweight needs to account for tension as
well. *The support line is over a freewheeling pulley and is currently
tied off, but I think a modest eight would be better in this
circumstance as the near end of the line is a treetop with some sway
in the wind.

So, I ask if anybody has an idea about what a good weight night be to
maintain tension and avoid too much sagging. *For starters, I was
thinking a simple barbell weight of 5 lbs or so more or less, but I'm
wide open on this one.

Thanks so much!
Bruce

Let me point you in a different direction...

When you ask about a weight, that implies you will also be using a
pulley (block, for you sailors). This is another piece to purchase and
another piece to rust up and fail, at least the hardware store
galvanized ones. Don't ask what the ones for sailboats cost.

I have had a 130 foot dipole (stranded 14 ga.) up between two trees
since 1994, with no failures here in the great Midwest (lots o' wind,
lots o' snow).

I considered the weight/pulley arrangement but ultimately decided on
using a screen door spring at each end. These are typically *a foot (or
a little more) long and readily available at any hardware store. I would
recommend you pay a buck or two more and get the ones that are chrome
plated and then spray paint it too, for a little additional
weatherproofing (belt AND suspenders). Works fine, lasts a long time.

Hi, Joe- I have thought about a spring - those screen door springs
provide enough tension and travel? I expect up to about 3 feet travel
on that tree in the highest winds we get here.

To be honest, a counterweight is not a problem as to position and
safety. *A spring might be a little bit neater if it has enough
strength and give. *Neither one sounds very expensive.

Thanks, Bruce

OSH Hardware* has Good Quality Chromed Pulleys
with Brass Roller; Poly & Nylon Rope and a fair
selection of Zinc Plated Springs of all Diameters,
Lengths and Gauges. ~ RHF

Pulley : Chrome-Plated Zinc Die-Cast Housing
and Swivel Eyehttp://www.fdsons.com/popup_image.php?pID=19638http://www.acehardware...

* ACE, *Home Depot and Lowe's too.
*.

- OSH is my store, not the least of which because
- they have great free train calendars :-)

Free Train Calendars :-) :o) :-) :o) :-) :o) :-) :o) ~ RHF
*.
"Railtown" 1897 State Historic Parkhttp://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=491
-location- Jamestown, Californiahttp://www.railtown1897.org/railtown/default.asp
*.
California State Railroad Museumhttp://www.csrmf.org/
-location- Old-Town Sacramento, Californiahttp://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=668
*.
Western Railway Museumhttp://www.wrm.org/
-location- Suisun City, California
* Bay Area Electric Railroad Association

They are all Part of California's "Golden" Railroad History ~ RHF
*.
*.

We have a great place near my home - Niles Canyon Railway and Golden
Gate Railroad Museum:

http://www.ncry.org/

http://www.ggrm.org/

Steam train rides all the time :-)

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 13, 8:57*am, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 13, 6:18*am, dave wrote:

On 02/13/2011 04:03 AM, RHF wrote:

OSH Hardware* has Good Quality Chromed Pulleys
with Brass Roller; Poly& *Nylon Rope and a fair
selection of Zinc Plated Springs of all Diameters,
Lengths and Gauges. ~ RHF

You need real antenna rope. UV treated Dacron polyester antenna rope.

- I've always used "regular" polyester rope, which
- I think is inherently UV resistant. *It lasts longer
- than the antennas do. *I think Dacron is just a
- brand name for polyester anyway.

BpnJ : You got that right :o)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacron
http://www.davisrf.com/dacron.php

Dacron is a TradeMark {Name} for a Polyester Fiber.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dacron
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Po...phthalate.aspx

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 7:34*am, dave wrote:
On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:

On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

I use them for strain relief. Wrapping a wire or a rope around an
insulator with a 3/4 inch radius puts less wear and tear on either
material per square mm of contact surface than tying the rope directly
to the wire. I cannot prove (off the top o' my head) this
quantitatively, but intuitively it seems right.

Having said that. I am sure there is nothing to gain electrically from
omitting the insulator.

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On 02/14/2011 07:49 AM, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 14, 7:34 am, wrote:
On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:

On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

I use them for strain relief. Wrapping a wire or a rope around an
insulator with a 3/4 inch radius puts less wear and tear on either
material per square mm of contact surface than tying the rope directly
to the wire. I cannot prove (off the top o' my head) this
quantitatively, but intuitively it seems right.

Having said that. I am sure there is nothing to gain electrically from
omitting the insulator.

http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/81866-...mbles-1-4.html

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 8:27*am, dave wrote:
On 02/14/2011 07:49 AM, bpnjensen wrote:





On Feb 14, 7:34 am, *wrote:
On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:

On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

I use them for strain relief. *Wrapping a wire or a rope around an
insulator with a 3/4 inch radius puts less wear and tear on either
material per square mm of contact surface than tying the rope directly
to the wire. *I cannot prove (off the top o' my head) this
quantitatively, but intuitively it seems right.

Having said that. I am sure there is nothing to gain electrically from
omitting the insulator.

http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/81866-...bles-1-4.html- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yepp, those should work too :-)

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 9:19*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

How important would that be for receive?

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?


Rainwater doesn't conduct very well. Also, the voltages are very low.
Power lines will arc over insulators, but that's usually caused by filth
accumulating over the insulator knob and the fact that it's a few
thousand volts.



mike
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Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 10:15*am, m II wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:



On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

Rainwater doesn't conduct very well. Also, the voltages are very low.
Power lines will arc over insulators, but that's usually caused by filth
accumulating over the insulator knob and the fact that it's a few
thousand volts.

mike

I would guess that, for RX, unless the rainwater also allows a
complete passage to ground for the signal, water on the antenna and
rope is going to do little more than extend the resonant frequency of
the antenna to a longer wavelength. If you're a monitor station for a
major broadcaster, that may be a problem. For a SWL, maybe not so
much.

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On 02/14/2011 09:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

That wouldn't be "insulating" rope any more, technically. Fresh water on
plastic does not conduct.

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On 02/14/2011 10:56 AM, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 14, 10:15 am, m wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:



On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

Rainwater doesn't conduct very well. Also, the voltages are very low.
Power lines will arc over insulators, but that's usually caused by filth
accumulating over the insulator knob and the fact that it's a few
thousand volts.

mike

I would guess that, for RX, unless the rainwater also allows a
complete passage to ground for the signal, water on the antenna and
rope is going to do little more than extend the resonant frequency of
the antenna to a longer wavelength. If you're a monitor station for a
major broadcaster, that may be a problem. For a SWL, maybe not so
much.

I've never noticed any electric effects from rain on my polyester lines;
nor on the old school clothesline I used to use (plastic over nylon?)
This would include ropes touching active elements directly on a stub
tuned vertical, in the rain, while observing reflected power. Simply not
an issue AFAIK.

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 11:08*am, dave wrote:
On 02/14/2011 09:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:



On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

That wouldn't be "insulating" rope any more, technically. Fresh water on
plastic does not conduct.

Yeah, but what if someone goes up in an airplane with a saltshaker?
You could be in trouble! ;-)

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

On 2/14/2011 1:15 PM, m II wrote:

Rainwater doesn't conduct very well.

Well, THAT'S debatable too. Sadly, in today's world, rainwater can
contain a lot of sulfuric acid (pollution from coal-fired power plants),
and H2SO4 is a -very- good conductor.

Sorry, a) I am old fashioned and b) I am also used to transmitting on my
antennas.

If you were just receiving and desperate to save a couple of bucks on
insulators, you -may- be able to get away with it (or not).

Kiss It Stupid Simple
 

On Feb 14, 1:13*pm, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

On 2/14/2011 1:15 PM, m II wrote:

Rainwater doesn't conduct very well.

Well, THAT'S debatable too. Sadly, in today's world, rainwater can
contain a lot of sulfuric acid (pollution from coal-fired power plants),
and H2SO4 is a -very- good conductor.

Sorry, a) I am old fashioned and b) I am also used to transmitting on my
antennas.

If you were just receiving and desperate to save a couple of bucks on
insulators, you -may- be able to get away with it (or not).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Around these parts, not too much H2SO4, but lotsa other tailpipe
emissions.

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 14, 6:51*am, dave wrote:

- - On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:
- - -but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

- Why?

Dave -in-a-word- "Tradition" ~ RHF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 14, 7:49*am, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 14, 7:34*am, dave wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:

On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?


Dave -changing-the-subject-line-to-read-
"Kiss It Stupid Simple"
Says more about "YOU" then 'me' ~ RHF

Dave -where-as-'i'-say-
Keep It Simple and Practical ! : [KISAP!]

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . .
Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...1cdeb93902f3d3

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 14, 9:19*am, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

- - If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

- Well, that could be debatable.
- Do you have any way to quantify the RF leakage of wet
- rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

Joe from Kokomo : What I was told many years ago
and still believe today is :

A Hard Insulator does not become contaminated with
all sorts of things -while- A Soft Woven Rope can Absorb
the Contaminates.

Now Add Rain {Water} and two things can Happen :

* The Hard Insulator has the Surface 'contamination'
Washed-Off.
-result- A Good 'Clean' Fully Functioning Insulator :o)

* The Soft Woven Rope can Absob the Rain Water
-and- Now you have Water 'mixed' with what all the
Contaminates that have penetrated the Rope.
-result- The Rope is no longer as good an Insulator
as when it was New un-contaminated and dry.

Just seemed reasonable to me -but- I have never seen
and Test Data that confirms this 'common-sense'.

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On 02/14/2011 06:01 PM, RHF wrote:

-where-as-these-
Low-cost Plastic Egg Insulators in a Bag of 10
only Cost around 60 Cents a piece.
http://www.radio-ware.com/products/pegg.htm
* Designed for the intended application
* Mechanical Strain Relief for both the Wire and Rope
* Plus Lower Cost :o)

It says they are made for electric fences. You have to buy 10 at a time.

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 14, 1:13*pm, Joe from Kokomo wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11-02-14 10:19 AM, Joe from Kokomo wrote:

On 02/14/2011 06:51 AM, dave wrote:
On 02/13/2011 08:26 PM, RHF wrote:

-but- I still use Antenna Insulators between the 'Poly'

Why?

On 2/14/2011 10:34 AM, dave wrote:

If you use insulating rope there is no need to buy insulators.

Well, that could be debatable. Do you have any way to quantify the RF
leakage of wet rope vs. a wet insulator to support your contention?

On 2/14/2011 1:15 PM, m II wrote:

Rainwater doesn't conduct very well.

Well, THAT'S debatable too. Sadly, in today's world, rainwater can
contain a lot of sulfuric acid (pollution from coal-fired power plants),
and H2SO4 is a -very- good conductor.

Sorry, a) I am old fashioned and b) I am also used to transmitting on my
antennas.

If you were just receiving and desperate to save a couple of bucks on
insulators, you -may- be able to get away with it (or not).

Joe from Kokomo,

There are All Sorts and Forms of Pollution in the Air :
Chemical + Particle + Mineral + Organic
-and-some-of-them-when-mixed-'conduct'-
An Antenna Support/Rigging Rope that has been
In-the-Air for a Year is a "Dirty'* Rope.
* Contaminated

The Soft Woven Rope can Absorb the Rain Water
-and- Now you have Water 'mixed' with what all the
Contaminates that have penetrated the Rope.
-result- The Rope is no longer as good an Insulator
as when it was New un-contaminated and dry.
-while-
The Hard Insulator has the Surface 'contamination'
Washed-Off.
-result- A Good 'Clean' Fully Functioning Insulator :o)

well that is how 'i' see it . . .
dirty dirty dirty - iane ~ RHF

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

If you're talking about a receiving antenna, there's really little loss
in using a piece of line tied directly to the antenna wire to maintain
tension.

But consider, that the line will be in contact with other
infrastructure. A tree, a pole. The house, or garage.....whatever you
use to support the block. And while dry, that may be no issue, when wet,
there's enough conductivity to take a nearby static strike up directly
into your front end. May not be the best result.

Using an egg insulator between the line and the wire of your antenna
allows that extra bit of isolation that may save your input. It also
allows a more secure mounting of the antenna, and attachment to your
tensioning line because the mechanical strain is almost entirely borne
by the insulator. Further, if correctly installed, the egg is, itself,
in compression, not tension, so even if damaged, there isn't an
immediate danger of release.

For a receiving antenna, there are few differences in performance. But
there are a few benefits to using an insulator mechanically. And there
may be benefits if there are static issues at your listening post.

A good quality ceramic egg is the better option. Both mechanically and
electrically, and will deteriorate less over time, when exposed to the
elements.



I have a skirt tuned multiband HF vertical, made entirely of aluminum
and plastic. It requires no guys, but I use them anyway due to hurricane
force winds some times. I have 4 [ea] Dacron antenna ropes, tied
directly to the radiating metal of the upper half of the vertical dipole
at about 22 feet AGL. The ropes are at a 45 degree angle and tied to
stakes in the ground.

Wet ropes, as described above, make no difference. Inductively coupled
energy from nearby lightning strikes will get directly into your
transmission line, regardless of your clean eggs. That's why you use Arc
Plugs or something similar.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 15, 9:08*am, Bob Dobbs wrote:
dave wrote:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg

Looks like the gas discharge type I have.
Somewhere I heard someone say that they go shorted when hit,
like a MOV, but that seems counterintuitive and it seems more likely
that they would just go permanently open by out gassing.
What's your opinion on this?

My DX-Ultra has a proprietary gas discharge arc-plug in its core.
Alpha Delta says that after several years of significant static, it
can get weak and the antenna won't function as well. Just to be anal,
I put in a new one about 6 years ago, and it's worked about the same
before and after and ever since.

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 15, 1:10*pm, wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:48*am, dave wrote:





If you're talking about a receiving antenna, there's really little loss
in using a piece of line tied directly to the antenna wire to maintain
tension.

But consider, that the line will be in contact with other
infrastructure. A tree, a pole. The house, or garage.....whatever you
use to support the block. And while dry, that may be no issue, when wet,
there's enough conductivity to take a nearby static strike up directly
into your front end. May not be the best result.

Using an egg insulator between the line and the wire of your antenna
allows that extra bit of isolation that may save your input. It also
allows a more secure mounting of the antenna, and attachment to your
tensioning line because the mechanical strain is almost entirely borne
by the insulator. Further, if correctly installed, the egg is, itself,
in compression, not tension, so even if damaged, there isn't an
immediate danger of release.

For a receiving antenna, there are few differences in performance. But
there are a few benefits to using an insulator mechanically. And there
may be benefits if there are static issues at your listening post.

A good quality ceramic egg is the better option. Both mechanically and
electrically, and will deteriorate less over time, when exposed to the
elements.

I have a skirt tuned multiband HF vertical, made entirely of aluminum
and plastic. It requires no guys, but I use them anyway due to hurricane
force winds some times. I have 4 [ea] Dacron antenna ropes, tied
directly to the radiating metal of the upper half of the vertical dipole
at about 22 feet AGL. The ropes are at a 45 degree angle and tied to
stakes in the ground.

Wet ropes, as described above, make no difference. Inductively coupled
energy from nearby lightning strikes will get directly into your
transmission line, regardless of your clean eggs. That's why you use Arc
Plugs or something similar.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From what I saw--- there is NO protection against a Direct Lightning
strike . Just ask any utility/cable guy !- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think the only way to *possibly* prevent a lightning jump to your
equipment and house is to provide a total disconnect and shunt to
exterior ground. Otherwise, a lightning stroke can leap a mighty
distance.

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 15, 1:03*pm, wrote:
On Feb 15, 8:40*am, dave wrote:





On 02/14/2011 07:43 PM, RHF wrote:

Then Again Dave : You would recommend using
'Nylon' Thimbles instead . . .

Basically the same item from a different 'source'
http://www.packetradio.com/catalog/i...popup_image&pI...

"C-150" Economy Wire Insulator @ ~50 Cents each
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/antsup/4818.html

I learned to make insulators out of Plexiglass in the early 1960s. Ever
since then I have used scrap plastic when the need arises. And I
transmit. To watch an SWL ****** get all anal about insulators is funny..

Not really. Some of us,over here, are hardcore--diehard--SWL--nuts .
And Perfectionists on top of that ... Just some of us, not all .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's a sickness ;-)

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On Feb 15, 12:43*pm, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 15, 9:08*am, Bob Dobbs wrote:

dave wrote:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg

Looks like the gas discharge type I have.
Somewhere I heard someone say that they go shorted when hit,
like a MOV, but that seems counterintuitive and it seems more likely
that they would just go permanently open by out gassing.
What's your opinion on this?

My DX-Ultra has a proprietary gas discharge arc-plug in its core.
Alpha Delta says that after several years of significant static, it
can get weak and the antenna won't function as well. *Just to be anal,
I put in a new one about 6 years ago, and it's worked about the same
before and after and ever since.

On the subject of front end protection. Some very good (old-time)
designs contained a simple neon light (120vac) across the antenna
terminals . Such modestly priced extra protection never hurts . Gas
discharge tube type is much better,though .

Are Your SWL Antennas Fit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On 02/15/2011 09:08 AM, Bob Dobbs wrote:
dave wrote:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg

Looks like the gas discharge type I have.
Somewhere I heard someone say that they go shorted when hit,
like a MOV, but that seems counterintuitive and it seems more likely
that they would just go permanently open by out gassing.
What's your opinion on this?

The instructions point out that this happens and that you can get back
on the air by removing the replaceable arc pill thingy. I suspect a
charge big enough to fuse the gap would have been a front-end killer. I
was a firm believer in Power MOVs when I was a station engineer in South
Texas.

Gas Discharge Tube Lightning Protectors
 

On 02/15/2011 01:25 PM, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 15, 1:10 pm, wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:48 am, wrote:


Wet ropes, as described above, make no difference. Inductively coupled
energy from nearby lightning strikes will get directly into your
transmission line, regardless of your clean eggs. That's why you use Arc
Plugs or something similar.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-270.jpg-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From what I saw--- there is NO protection against a Direct Lightning
strike . Just ask any utility/cable guy !- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think the only way to *possibly* prevent a lightning jump to your
equipment and house is to provide a total disconnect and shunt to
exterior ground. Otherwise, a lightning stroke can leap a mighty
distance.

I said "inductively coupled energy"; not direct strikes. The egg won't
stop those either.

http://www.hubersuhner.com.au/co-au/...b-princ-gs.htm

Wire SWL Antennas : ? The Question Is . . . Are Your SWL AntennasFit-To-Be-Tied !
 

On 02/15/2011 01:26 PM, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 15, 1:03 pm, wrote:
On Feb 15, 8:40 am, wrote:





On 02/14/2011 07:43 PM, RHF wrote:

Then Again Dave : You would recommend using
'Nylon' Thimbles instead . . .

Basically the same item from a different 'source'
http://www.packetradio.com/catalog/i...popup_image&pI...

"C-150" Economy Wire Insulator @ ~50 Cents each
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/antsup/4818.html

I learned to make insulators out of Plexiglass in the early 1960s. Ever
since then I have used scrap plastic when the need arises. And I
transmit. To watch an SWL ****** get all anal about insulators is funny.

Not really. Some of us,over here, are hardcore--diehard--SWL--nuts .
And Perfectionists on top of that ... Just some of us, not all .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's a sickness ;-)

I'd probably get some metal ones from the rigging department.

Lightning Has Many Paths To Follow To Create Radio Equipment DisasterFor You
 

On Feb 15, 1:25*pm, bpnjensen wrote:
On Feb 15, 1:10*pm, wrote:



On Feb 15, 11:48*am, dave wrote:

If you're talking about a receiving antenna, there's really little loss
in using a piece of line tied directly to the antenna wire to maintain
tension.

But consider, that the line will be in contact with other
infrastructure. A tree, a pole. The house, or garage.....whatever you
use to support the block. And while dry, that may be no issue, when wet,
there's enough conductivity to take a nearby static strike up directly
into your front end. May not be the best result.

Using an egg insulator between the line and the wire of your antenna
allows that extra bit of isolation that may save your input. It also
allows a more secure mounting of the antenna, and attachment to your
tensioning line because the mechanical strain is almost entirely borne
by the insulator. Further, if correctly installed, the egg is, itself,
in compression, not tension, so even if damaged, there isn't an
immediate danger of release.

For a receiving antenna, there are few differences in performance. But
there are a few benefits to using an insulator mechanically. And there
may be benefits if there are static issues at your listening post.

A good quality ceramic egg is the better option. Both mechanically and
electrically, and will deteriorate less over time, when exposed to the
elements.

I have a skirt tuned multiband HF vertical, made entirely of aluminum
and plastic. It requires no guys, but I use them anyway due to hurricane
force winds some times. I have 4 [ea] Dacron antenna ropes, tied
directly to the radiating metal of the upper half of the vertical dipole
at about 22 feet AGL. The ropes are at a 45 degree angle and tied to
stakes in the ground.

Wet ropes, as described above, make no difference. Inductively coupled
energy from nearby lightning strikes will get directly into your
transmission line, regardless of your clean eggs. That's why you use Arc
Plugs or something similar.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictur...jpg-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From what I saw--- there is NO protection against a Direct Lightning
strike . Just ask any utility/cable guy !- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

- I think the only way to *possibly* prevent a lightning
- jump to your equipment and house is to provide a
- total disconnect and shunt to exterior ground.
-*Otherwise, a lightning stroke can leap a mighty distance.

ZAP ! - Lightning Has Many Paths To Follow To
Create Radio Equipment Disaster For You - ZAP !

Here is the Almost Sure Proof Way To Stop It !
You walk outside to where you have your Antenna
Feed-in-Line Coax Cable coming to the House :
Where you have located your 1:1 Line Isolator and
un-screw the House-Side PL-259 Plug on the end
of the Coax Cable going into the House from the
Isolator. Have a SO-239 Jack* mounted where
you could easily hang up the Coax and Screw the
PL-259 Plug into it.

* The SO-239 Jack should be Shorted from Center
to the Threaded Outer-Ring.

Now You Do This Each and Every Time You Use
{come home} and Don't Use {leave home} Your
Radio Equipment and can reasonably be sure that
the Radio Equipment is Safe from your Antenna
System being a Lightning Path to it.

....but... oops,,, Oops... OOPS ! ! !
Your House's Electrical System still could be an
'alternative' Path for Lightning to Travel and Get to
your Radio Equipment.

=OK=NOW=
Think of all the Electrical Service 'Grid' Wires that
are with-in a 1/10th of a Mile [528 Feet] from your
House all with the 'potential' To-Channel the Energy
from a Nearby Lightning Strike into your House
{Neighbor's Houses too} and Do Real Damage to
Everything in-side of it; that is "Plugged-In".
-oh-the-horror-

So -rotfl- Un-Plug Everything Before You Leave ;;-}} ~ RHF