Am 07.10.2011 00:07, schrieb RD Sandman:
Thomas wrote in news:9f4n06F18qU1
@mid.individual.net:

Your "state of security" is based on ignorant presumptions and a
willigness to abrogate your responsibility to yourself, your family
and
your fellow citizens.

That is blatant nonsense!
If you want less crime in your country, than it's better to solve a few
problems, than to send in troops.

I thought this conversation was about self defence of family, etc.. That
is not a call for troops.

Crimes are usually not unavoidable like bad weather.

Some crimes are. One can do a lot to avoid crimes like not getting
involved with gangs or drugs, but some trouble comes seeking you, not the
other way around.

(maybe I have to stick to my position. But I would agree with you somehow.)

But think about drugs, for example.

A drug is a substance, that people like to take, because it makes them a
bit relaxed, woozy or alike.

Usually the criminals don't want to make people woozy, but intend to get
money from them. To avoid drug related crimes, one should try to make it
harder, to gain something from selling drugs.

This could be done, if the drug itself is not the subject of prosecution
or the addictive person, but drug trafficking and trade.

The addictive person had to be cured, where possible and less people
should start new drug experiences. Than those, that remain addictive
could be provided with the drugs in a kind of medical situation for free.

This would stop the market and leave no way to profit from addiction.

A more happy and healthy society is not so easily keen on taking drugs,
because they have nicer things in mind than getting a kick.

So make people happier and healthier. Drugs only pretend to do that, but
- in fact - don't, but create a mental and personal disaster.

This all is reason for immense costs, the general public has to cover.
There are policemen to be paid and prisons, lawyers and hospitals. All
this is expensive and has no greater good than a few woozy heads.


It is a sign of a
degenerated society, that people believe, they could only survive, if
they run around with arms.

YOu have no idea what a degenerated society is so I wouldn't go around
spouting about one. People in the US do not believe that they can only
survive if they run around armed. In fact, only a small percentage of
honest citizens do. I am one of them. I don't expect my gun to do
anything to lower crime in my country. I only expect it to be available
if and when I may need it.

Actually I like to shoot myself, but have only an air-pistol. German
laws are a bit strict and you can't easily get a gun. So I could think
about the problem only from the theoretical point of view.

I think, the best way is to reduce violence in general. Criminals like
to create places of their own taste. These place they like to decorate
with graffiti and rubble (my impression), what scares usual citizens away.

To scare the criminals away, it is in my eyes useful, to spot such
places and clean them.
I mean real physical cleaning! That allows usual people to go there
again and this reduces the territory for the 'bad guys'.

This scheme is also in some way applicable on certain districts, where
people live. The removed rubble attracts less criminal minds, what can
'cure' such areas.

If people carry a gun, than this would require a spotless reputation and
enough training, to know about the risks. That also would require proper
registration and occasional control of firearms. Actually I think, it is
very dangerous, to have a gun with you outside the home. I think, the
risk is higher than the benefit, but I can't tell.


The society is responsible for the security of the country. That's why
you have an army and a police. The individual should be able to trust
in these organisations.

Yes, but they aren't always there......I doubt very much you are in among
police and military in your country either.

No, I'm no policemen and (German) military we didn't have in West-Berlin.

So how could you avoid crime? Well, that's where I have started. If
people in general in a society are (in average) more healthy, happy,
employed, sober, clean and moral, you have less crimes. (or vice versa)

True.......and that is about 98 or 99% of the country.

If you have a lot of psychopaths running around with heavy guns, than
things get dangerous.

There are a few.....mostly in gangs..

This is why I think, the police shall provide security for the general
public. This general public in return controls the police - to keep the
policemen within the bounds of the law.

They do......but they also don't have the onus of providing personal
security for every individual. That is also true your country.

The individual person may possibly have a gun or shot on a shooting
range. But you cannot possibly believe, that citizens should carry out
their troubles with firearms.

Big difference between carrying out your troubles with a firearm and
having just in case you run into one of those trying to carry out his
troubles with a gun or a bomb.

To have an alternative to violence you need a trustful jurisdiction and
understandable and practical laws (what the U.S all don't have).

Based on your posting, you have very little idea of what US laws cover
and what laws we have or don't have.

This is
why I would recommend reforming the civil laws, rather than the civil
armament.

Anbd this is why most won't listen to you. You try to address problems,
you obviously, don't understand.

Well, agreed.
Actually this is the usenet and I type my ideas into such a forum
(alt.conspiracy btw). But occasionally I find different subjects
interesting. And then these post are crossposted to other forums, where
people participating having the impression of somebody without proper
knowledge.
To some extend this is true, but maybe you find ,what I have written,
interesting enough to think about it.

TH

On Oct 8, 10:36*am, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 07.10.2011 00:07, schrieb RD Sandman:









Thomas *wrote in news:9f4n06F18qU1
@mid.individual.net:

Your "state of security" is based on ignorant presumptions and a
willigness to abrogate your responsibility to yourself, your family
and
your fellow citizens.

That is blatant nonsense!
If you want less crime in your country, than it's better to solve a few
problems, than to send in troops.

I thought this conversation was about self defence of family, etc.. *That
is not a call for troops.

Crimes are usually not unavoidable like bad weather.

Some crimes are. *One can do a lot to avoid crimes like not getting
involved with gangs or drugs, but some trouble comes seeking you, not the
other way around.

(maybe I have to stick to my position. But I would agree with you somehow..)

But think about drugs, for example.

A drug is a substance, that people like to take, because it makes them a
bit relaxed, woozy or alike.

Usually the criminals don't want to make people woozy, but intend to get
money from them. To avoid drug related crimes, one should try to make it
harder, to gain something from selling drugs.

This could be done, if the drug itself is not the subject of prosecution
or the addictive person, but drug trafficking and trade.

The addictive person had to be cured, where possible and less people
should start new drug experiences.

- Than those, that remain addictive could
- be provided with the drugs in a kind of
- medical situation for free.

TH,

So then you would also Open 'RX' Bars and
Administer Unlimited Quantities of Alcohol
to Certified Habitual {Lifetime} Drunks
and Repeat DUI Drivers*.

* After Revoking their License to Drive
and Impounding their Car/Truck.

? What About Free* Cigarettes & Cigars for
All Who Can Not Quit Smoking !
* 'RX' Smoke Shops

? why should 'i' work all day and pay taxes
to support someone else not working; plus
pay for them to get high/loaded ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF

Am 09.10.2011 00:23, schrieb RHF:
On Oct 8, 10:36 am, Thomas wrote:
Am 07.10.2011 00:07, schrieb RD Sandman:









Thomas wrote in news:9f4n06F18qU1
@mid.individual.net:

Your "state of security" is based on ignorant presumptions and a
willigness to abrogate your responsibility to yourself, your family
and
your fellow citizens.

That is blatant nonsense!
If you want less crime in your country, than it's better to solve a few
problems, than to send in troops.

I thought this conversation was about self defence of family, etc.. That
is not a call for troops.

Crimes are usually not unavoidable like bad weather.

Some crimes are. One can do a lot to avoid crimes like not getting
involved with gangs or drugs, but some trouble comes seeking you, not the
other way around.

(maybe I have to stick to my position. But I would agree with you somehow.)

But think about drugs, for example.

A drug is a substance, that people like to take, because it makes them a
bit relaxed, woozy or alike.

Usually the criminals don't want to make people woozy, but intend to get
money from them. To avoid drug related crimes, one should try to make it
harder, to gain something from selling drugs.

This could be done, if the drug itself is not the subject of prosecution
or the addictive person, but drug trafficking and trade.

The addictive person had to be cured, where possible and less people
should start new drug experiences.

- Than those, that remain addictive could
- be provided with the drugs in a kind of
- medical situation for free.

TH,

So then you would also Open 'RX' Bars and
Administer Unlimited Quantities of Alcohol
to Certified Habitual {Lifetime} Drunks
and Repeat DUI Drivers*.

* After Revoking their License to Drive
and Impounding their Car/Truck.

? What About Free* Cigarettes& Cigars for
All Who Can Not Quit Smoking !
* 'RX' Smoke Shops

? why should 'i' work all day and pay taxes
to support someone else not working; plus
pay for them to get high/loaded ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF
.
Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.

So the single dose could be provided for very low costs - in case the
government would provide this. It should - of course - be limited to
real addictive people and in fact for free, because the objective of
such activity is not, to help people to a woozy head, but to dry out the
market for such substances.

The Dutch way of selling pot in cafés is in my eyes silly and not really
helpful. Mariuana is not as harmless as many people think. It is from my
impression very psychoactive and could create severe mental problems.


TH

On 10/8/2011 5:13 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:

...
Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.
...

In areas of So. America, Coca Leaf is legal. I think the wife and I
were on a train in Bolivia when we had our first cup of coca tea --
delightful stuff! As good or better than coffee, indeed a mix of coca
leaf with coffee beans is an ideal pick-me-up!

Coca tea should certainly be available here in the USA ... and, like
pot, the government should keep their noses out of others business and
what plants they consume ... if you are in public and endangering
yourself or others, different story ... if you are committing a crime,
different story, etc.

It was an insane plan to ever attempt to outlaw God given plants. I
don't know what insanity ever made it seem different, what thinking made
us wish to punish people for using plants, etc. ... but someday we will
have to return to sanity and tell the control freaks to mind their own
business and quit locking up people for using plants and committing no
other crime(s.) For one thing, we simply can't afford it, never could,
really ...

Regards,
JS

On Oct 8, 5:13*pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 09.10.2011 00:23, schrieb RHF:







On Oct 8, 10:36 am, Thomas *wrote:
Am 07.10.2011 00:07, schrieb RD Sandman:

Thomas * *wrote in news:9f4n06F18qU1
@mid.individual.net:

Your "state of security" is based on ignorant presumptions and a
willigness to abrogate your responsibility to yourself, your family
and
your fellow citizens.

That is blatant nonsense!
If you want less crime in your country, than it's better to solve a few
problems, than to send in troops.

I thought this conversation was about self defence of family, etc.. *That
is not a call for troops.

Crimes are usually not unavoidable like bad weather.

Some crimes are. *One can do a lot to avoid crimes like not getting
involved with gangs or drugs, but some trouble comes seeking you, not the
other way around.

(maybe I have to stick to my position. But I would agree with you somehow.)

But think about drugs, for example.

A drug is a substance, that people like to take, because it makes them a
bit relaxed, woozy or alike.

Usually the criminals don't want to make people woozy, but intend to get
money from them. To avoid drug related crimes, one should try to make it
harder, to gain something from selling drugs.

This could be done, if the drug itself is not the subject of prosecution
or the addictive person, but drug trafficking and trade.

The addictive person had to be cured, where possible and less people
should start new drug experiences.

- Than those, that remain addictive could
- be provided with the drugs in a kind of
- medical situation for free.

TH,

So then you would also Open 'RX' Bars and
Administer Unlimited Quantities of Alcohol
to Certified Habitual {Lifetime} Drunks
and Repeat DUI Drivers*.

* After Revoking their License to Drive
and Impounding their Car/Truck.

? What About Free* Cigarettes& *Cigars for
All Who Can Not Quit Smoking !
* 'RX' Smoke Shops

? why should 'i' work all day and pay taxes
to support someone else not working; plus
pay for them to get high/loaded ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF
* .

Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.

- So the single dose could be provided for
- very low costs - in case the government
- would provide this. It should - of course
- be limited to real addictive people and
- in fact for free,

Alcoholics are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Alcohol for Drunks
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

Tobacco Smokers are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Cigarettes/Cigars for Smokers
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

-again- ? why should 'i' work all day and
pay taxes to support someone else not working;
pluspay for them to get high/loaded on
illegal drugs & alcohol & tobacco ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF

Next week on Thursday at 5:30 AM on the TCM channel, Escape from East
Berlin movie.Doggy and I will be getting our beauty sleep at that time
of the night/morning.I have seen that movie a few times before.

Wedding, in North Western Berlin, there is a reconstructed section of
the wall and a museum there.
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/583/.../19053_wedding

We gots 'The Red Baron' on the TCM channel right now, Flight Commander
movie.

Snoopy and the Red Baron.
cuhulin

Am 09.10.2011 04:18, schrieb RHF:
On Oct 8, 5:13 pm, Thomas wrote:
Am 09.10.2011 00:23, schrieb RHF:


Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.

- So the single dose could be provided for
- very low costs - in case the government
- would provide this. It should - of course
- be limited to real addictive people and
- in fact for free,

Alcoholics are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Alcohol for Drunks
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

Tobacco Smokers are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Cigarettes/Cigars for Smokers
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

-again- ? why should 'i' work all day and
pay taxes to support someone else not working;
pluspay for them to get high/loaded on
illegal drugs& alcohol& tobacco ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF
.

The government is not responsible for your daily kicks.
What I have written is a (possible) way to reduce drug-related crimes.

These crimes and the addictive people produce enormous costs for the
general public, because the police has to be behind them, they occupy
prison cells and beds in hospitals. They do not really work, and if they
do something, than mostly illegal stuff.

Besides the health risk (Aids for example) and the dangers of crimes,
the costs are also worth to mention.

To reduce these costs, the policy about drugs could be changed. Than
taking the drug isn't wanted, but not a crime. Only drug-trade is
prosecuted.

And to dry out the market, the drugs are handed out for free, but only
to the real addictive people and only in special centres. This will not
allow any profit - or at least much less - from drug trading.

If the addictive person gets his daily dose, the related crimes could be
greatly reduced. This alone would be a justification. But there is more,
since the income from drugs are often used to finance other unwanted
activities. (All the third-world guerillas for example live more or less
from drugs.)

Anyhow: things like this will not happen, because positive effects for
you are negative effects for other people, that are not really happy
about loosing their income.


TH

Have Gunnnnn, Will Travel, reads the carrrd of a mannnnn,,,,,, Paladin,
Paladin, where do you roammmmm?,,,,,,,,, three sheets in the wind, and
back again,,,, Paladin, Paladin,,,,,,,
cuhulin

On Oct 9, 9:31*am, Thomas Heger wrote:
Am 09.10.2011 04:18, schrieb RHF:









On Oct 8, 5:13 pm, Thomas *wrote:
Am 09.10.2011 00:23, schrieb RHF:

Alcohol is a drug in a way and cigarettes make quite addictive, but that
was not, what I meant with illegal drugs.
I mean stuff like crack or heroine. These create a certain kind of
physical addiction, that is very hard to cure and forces the addictive
person to use these substances, unless they want to get severe pain and
health problems.

Like any substance, the price depends. It is a question of the way,
these substances are produced and not of the stuff itself. In
Afghanistan a great deal of the raw material is produced. This could be
bought there for relatively moderate prices. The processing to a drug is
usual chemical work, that any good pharmaceutical plant could do.

- So the single dose could be provided for
- very low costs - in case the government
- would provide this. It should - of course
- be limited to real addictive people and
- in fact for free,

Alcoholics are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Alcohol for Drunks
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

Tobacco Smokers are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Cigarettes/Cigars for Smokers
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

-again- ? why should 'i' work all day and
pay taxes to support someone else not working;
pluspay for them to get high/loaded on
illegal drugs& *alcohol& *tobacco ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF
* .

The government is not responsible for your daily kicks.
What I have written is a (possible) way to reduce drug-related crimes.

These crimes and the addictive people produce enormous costs for the
general public, because the police has to be behind them, they occupy
prison cells and beds in hospitals. They do not really work, and if they
do something, than mostly illegal stuff.

Besides the health risk (Aids for example) and the dangers of crimes,
the costs are also worth to mention.

To reduce these costs, the policy about drugs could be changed. Than
taking the drug isn't wanted, but not a crime. Only drug-trade is
prosecuted.

And to dry out the market, the drugs are handed out for free, but only
to the real addictive people and only in special centres. This will not
allow any profit - or at least much less - from drug trading.


So to "Dry-Out" the Alcohol Market We Should
Give It Away for Free Too !


So to "Dry-Out" the Tobacco Market We Should
Give It Away for Free Too !

Am 10.10.2011 03:14, schrieb RHF:
On Oct 9, 9:31 am, Thomas wrote:
Am 09.10.2011 04:18, schrieb RHF:


Alcoholics are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Alcohol for Drunks
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

Tobacco Smokers are 'real addictive people' too !

Equal [RX] Treatment Under the Law would
require Free Cigarettes/Cigars for Smokers
-if- Free Drugs is provided for Dopers.

-again- ? why should 'i' work all day and
pay taxes to support someone else not working;
pluspay for them to get high/loaded on
illegal drugs& alcohol& tobacco ?
=no=joy= =no=joy= =no=joy= ~ RHF
.

The government is not responsible for your daily kicks.
What I have written is a (possible) way to reduce drug-related crimes.

These crimes and the addictive people produce enormous costs for the
general public, because the police has to be behind them, they occupy
prison cells and beds in hospitals. They do not really work, and if they
do something, than mostly illegal stuff.

Besides the health risk (Aids for example) and the dangers of crimes,
the costs are also worth to mention.

To reduce these costs, the policy about drugs could be changed. Than
taking the drug isn't wanted, but not a crime. Only drug-trade is
prosecuted.

And to dry out the market, the drugs are handed out for free, but only
to the real addictive people and only in special centres. This will not
allow any profit - or at least much less - from drug trading.


So to "Dry-Out" the Alcohol Market We Should
Give It Away for Free Too !

You cannot do that, because alcohol is in the end a cheap chemical, that
anybody could easily produce at home.

Crack is different and the kind of addiction is. This is, what makes
these substances so dangerous. Than crack is relatively expensive, hence
of much greater interest for criminals, because the profit rate is
enormously high. Only the business is very risky and one dealing with
drugs could easily end up in a prison (or worse).

To reduce the profit rate, the drug had to be cheaper, but less
available. This could only be achieved, if the substances are handed out
for free (or low price) in controlled situations.
This would modify the 'terms of trade', because the real addictive
people are then off the streets.

Alcohol is more a health problem for the individual, than a great deal
for the criminals. So alcoholism needs other means to to cure it.

So to "Dry-Out" the Tobacco Market We Should
Give It Away for Free Too !

You insist on this 'for free', but I don't. Actually a moderate (low)
price would have the same effect and would possibly look less dubious.

Tobacco is a risk for the health, too, but to smoke is an individual
decision and not such a problem for the society in general.


The addictive people do a lot of illegal things, like breaking into
homes, stealing cars, robbery and alike, to finance their addiction. So
these drug dealer profit in the end from these crimes.

The question for me was, how to reduce crime and not how to reduce the
individual costs for 'kicks'.


TH