I spent five years on the board of, and two years as the president of, a 721
home development board of directors. We had a few blowhards who, like many in
here, told us to go to hell and parked cars on blocks and the like.

It wasn't rocket science. We voted a 30 day "take it away or go to court." We
were impolitely told to go to hell. We didn't go to hell, we went to court.
Not a big deal. Between the court costs and our lawyer's fees, the blowhard had
a thousand dollar junk car project to remove. Three or four cases like that in
the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all got along
like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.

I took perverse satisfaction in stringing copper tape under the eaves of the
house, strangely just long enough to make a quarter wave dipole for forty
meters. But it was painted with exactly the same shade that the eaves were
painted, run with a quarter-gallon with adequate filtering, matched to the n'th
degree, and worked the world on everything from forty on up. You could walk
right up to it and not detect that there was an antenna of any sort.

Not to mention the 2-meter groundplane disguised as a chimney strap. Painted
wrought-iron black and strangely so, 19 inches long. Coax? Run down a mortar
seam and painted mortar grey. From five feet away, it was indistinguishable
from the mortar.

I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you have
tried it.

Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules, either don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this country
works.

Jim





"Midwest Kid"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
wrote in message ...
- WHO are you to tell me or someone else what you consider is "in check"
- or not? You deal with your property and the rest of us shall deal with
- ours.
-
If I move into an CC&R addition, I expect people to follow the
-rules. I would hope my neighbors would be smart enough to read important
-real estate documents. I don't care if my home is $300K. If some ham puts
-up a huge antenna and they make an exception, I will be documenting
-everything.
Jim Weir, VP Eng. RST Eng. WX6RST
A&P, CFI, and other good alphabet soup

Got the kid part right.


"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:Zx1yb.253283$275.924957@attbi_s53...

wrote in message ...
WHO are you to tell me or someone else what you consider is "in check"
or not? You deal with your property and the rest of us shall deal with
ours.

**** that. If I move into an CC&R addition, I expect people to follow the
rules. I would hope my neighbors would be smart enough to read important
real estate documents. I don't care if my home is $300K. If some ham
puts
up a huge antenna and they make an exception, I will be documenting
everything. As soon as that ham puts up a 4-sale sign, my huge ugly tower
will go up. You wouldn't be against _my_ right to do this, right? If the
ham had the balls to even say something about it I would laugh. In other
words the ham would want his tower when it suits _him_, however if he
takes
it down to sell the home and a neighbor puts one up...that's just not
right.

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I spent five years on the board of, and two years as the president of,
a 721
home development board of directors. We had a few blowhards who, like
many in
here, told us to go to hell and parked cars on blocks and the like.

It wasn't rocket science. We voted a 30 day "take it away or go to
court." We
were impolitely told to go to hell. We didn't go to hell, we went to
court.
Not a big deal. Between the court costs and our lawyer's fees, the
blowhard had
a thousand dollar junk car project to remove.

"take it away or go to court."? This looks a bit like a small minded
battle of the wills between Mr. BH and the Homeowner's Association. But
I could easily be wrong. Did the Homeowner's Association give the car
owners the option of fixing the cars? Did the Homeowner's Association
ask for volenteers to help make the cars safe and reliable? A few guys
who know what they are doing can get alot done in 30 day's spare time.
It would be a neighborly offer to make.


Three or four cases like that in
the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all
got along
like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.




I took perverse satisfaction in stringing copper tape under the eaves
of the
house, strangely just long enough to make a quarter wave dipole for
forty
meters. But it was painted with exactly the same shade that the eaves
were
painted, run with a quarter-gallon with adequate filtering, matched to
the n'th
degree, and worked the world on everything from forty on up. You
could walk
right up to it and not detect that there was an antenna of any sort.

Not to mention the 2-meter groundplane disguised as a chimney strap.
Painted
wrought-iron black and strangely so, 19 inches long. Coax? Run down
a mortar
seam and painted mortar grey. From five feet away, it was
indistinguishable
from the mortar.


I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?



I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.


No sir. Not me. I'd much rather discuss things politely rather than
start telling people what to do.



Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules,
either don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim



Sometimes those meddlesome courts think the country works differently.
They said the CC&Rs which prohibit a seller from selling his property to
Blacks or Jews or Mexicans or any group in particular can't be enforced.
I suppose it had something or other to do with civil rights. The
Homeowner's Association can still regulate the color of the neighbor's
house, if not the color of the neighbors.

Frank Dresser

"Frank Dresser"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


-"take it away or go to court."? This looks a bit like a small minded
-battle of the wills between Mr. BH and the Homeowner's Association. But
-I could easily be wrong. Did the Homeowner's Association give the car
-owners the option of fixing the cars? Did the Homeowner's Association
-ask for volenteers to help make the cars safe and reliable? A few guys
-who know what they are doing can get alot done in 30 day's spare time.
-It would be a neighborly offer to make.

The automobile could stay in the open carport for 30 days while being repaired
(and there was no prohibition against working outside) or 30 days out of
license. After that, the vehicle was in violation of the nuisance/eyesore part
of the regs. There were also loopholes that allowed vehicles of obvious
historical or antique interest more time while in the process of restoration.
There was no contest of wills; the feller had the mindset of a few in this
conversation who had absolutely no intention of abiding by what he signed. And
we DID, by the way, require any real estate agent peddling property in the
project to give the prospective owner a copy of the current regulations PRIOR to
signing any binding contract.

We also had the local 8th grade students read the regulations and any proposed
amendments. If half of the students couldn't tell us exactly what the
regulation said, it went back to the lawyer for rewrite at the lawyer's expense.


-
-
- Three or four cases like that in
- the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all
-got along
- like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.
-
-
-
-I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
-formula for such things?

Nope. And the primary purpose in my mind was NOT a reduction in property
values. After having been a ham, elmer, and examiner for damn near 50 years, I
still find a huge tower with beam in a small-lot residential neighborhood ugly.



-
-
-No sir. Not me. I'd much rather discuss things politely rather than
-start telling people what to do.

We discussed politely but firmly. We didn't tell anybody what to do. We simply
explained what the man already knew and said what we intended to do about it.
There was no telling anybody anything.


-
-
-Sometimes those meddlesome courts think the country works differently.
-They said the CC&Rs which prohibit a seller from selling his property to
-Blacks or Jews or Mexicans or any group in particular can't be enforced.
-I suppose it had something or other to do with civil rights. The
-Homeowner's Association can still regulate the color of the neighbor's
-house, if not the color of the neighbors.


Jesus. Can we spell b i g o t ?????


Jim



Jim Weir, VP Eng. RST Eng. WX6RST
A&P, CFI, and other good alphabet soup

"Frank Dresser"
-
-I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
-formula for such things?


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO impact on
property values. They also have data showing that, in general, property
values are rising faster in areas without CCRs & HOAs than in areas with
them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Well said, Jim.

-- Stinger

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I spent five years on the board of, and two years as the president of, a
721
home development board of directors. We had a few blowhards who, like
many in
here, told us to go to hell and parked cars on blocks and the like.

It wasn't rocket science. We voted a 30 day "take it away or go to
court." We
were impolitely told to go to hell. We didn't go to hell, we went to
court.
Not a big deal. Between the court costs and our lawyer's fees, the
blowhard had
a thousand dollar junk car project to remove. Three or four cases like
that in
the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all got
along
like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.

I took perverse satisfaction in stringing copper tape under the eaves of
the
house, strangely just long enough to make a quarter wave dipole for forty
meters. But it was painted with exactly the same shade that the eaves
were
painted, run with a quarter-gallon with adequate filtering, matched to the
n'th
degree, and worked the world on everything from forty on up. You could
walk
right up to it and not detect that there was an antenna of any sort.

Not to mention the 2-meter groundplane disguised as a chimney strap.
Painted
wrought-iron black and strangely so, 19 inches long. Coax? Run down a
mortar
seam and painted mortar grey. From five feet away, it was
indistinguishable
from the mortar.

I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.

Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules, either
don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim





"Midwest Kid"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
wrote in message ...
- WHO are you to tell me or someone else what you consider is "in check"
- or not? You deal with your property and the rest of us shall deal with
- ours.
-
If I move into an CC&R addition, I expect people to follow the
-rules. I would hope my neighbors would be smart enough to read
important
-real estate documents. I don't care if my home is $300K. If some ham
puts
-up a huge antenna and they make an exception, I will be documenting
-everything.
Jim Weir, VP Eng. RST Eng. WX6RST
A&P, CFI, and other good alphabet soup

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap. Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?




I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.


No sir. Not me. I'd much rather discuss things politely rather than
start telling people what to do.



Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules,
either don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim



Sometimes those meddlesome courts think the country works differently.
They said the CC&Rs which prohibit a seller from selling his property to
Blacks or Jews or Mexicans or any group in particular can't be enforced.
I suppose it had something or other to do with civil rights. The
Homeowner's Association can still regulate the color of the neighbor's
house, if not the color of the neighbors.

Frank Dresser

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO
impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:5Dayb.252403$mZ5.1876750@attbi_s54...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap.
Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs
are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a
home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?


For starters, most hams that put up towers with elaborate antenna systems
would take them down when they moved (unless they became a silent key),
because these things are not petty investments, they cost a lot of money.
Some installations cost more than a new mid-sized car. The installation of
the tower itself is held to much higher standard by law than the house
itself is.

And again, unlike someone who puts up an old car on blocks, or paints their
home in rainbow glow paint, hams perform a public service. There currently
exists a rule within the FCC that disallows municipalities preventing
amateur operators from erecting antennas, and a similar rule for CC&R's is
in the works.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

It does amaze me, Pappy, how many are so willing to accept, and even
defend, additional restrictions on people's lives and property in this
supposedly free country of ours.

Please show us one case where someone was force (with a gun, knife, etc) to
buy a home in a CC&R neighborhood. No one is forced to buy a home in CC&R.
If you don't want CC&R, move.

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

there was no place left to avoid those committees within just a few years.

My county just east of Indy has plenty of non CC&R neighborhoods. Oh wait,
how horrible it is to think people would want to live in a 25-30 year old
addition. Everyone wants to live in the 'perfect' place with no strings
attached. That is living in a fantasy world. Like I said, the Indy area is
nice. Plenty of 20-30 year old additions with good homes and no CC&R.
Though you might have to compromise on various issues (almost all these
additions have great school systems).

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:HFayb.256443$9E1.1368062@attbi_s52...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO
impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean
jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back
yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.

Same organization has data showing it doesn't affect the sale of homes
either.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:rQayb.257513$275.934642@attbi_s53...

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
hlink.net...

there was no place left to avoid those committees within just a few
years.

My county just east of Indy has plenty of non CC&R neighborhoods. Oh
wait,
how horrible it is to think people would want to live in a 25-30 year old
addition. Everyone wants to live in the 'perfect' place with no strings
attached. That is living in a fantasy world. Like I said, the Indy area
is
nice. Plenty of 20-30 year old additions with good homes and no CC&R.
Though you might have to compromise on various issues (almost all these
additions have great school systems).



Actually many people prefer the 20 to 30 year old suburb as these finally
have trees of decent size. The problem is that in some places in this
country finding an area without CCRs that will mean an unreasonably long
communte to work.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:5Dayb.252403$mZ5.1876750@attbi_s54...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm curious. How much do antennas reduce property values? Is there a
formula for such things?

Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid crap.
Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again, CC&Rs
are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a
home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away buyers?



I don't know where you live, but here we have zoning laws that control
much of the issues you are concerned about; and most towns have
enacted nusiance ordinances to handle less severe problems, such
as uncut grass, etc. BTW, I live in a AAA zoned area, and the ham
tower was not an issue. I kept in at the tree line, in the middle of
the property. Out of sight. Also, at one time I had three towers near
the house. The house next door was sold before it hit the market for
the full asking price.

Pete

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...


The automobile could stay in the open carport for 30 days while being
repaired
(and there was no prohibition against working outside) or 30 days out
of
license. After that, the vehicle was in violation of the
nuisance/eyesore part
of the regs. There were also loopholes that allowed vehicles of
obvious
historical or antique interest more time while in the process of
restoration.
There was no contest of wills; the feller had the mindset of a few in
this
conversation who had absolutely no intention of abiding by what he
signed. And
we DID, by the way, require any real estate agent peddling property in
the
project to give the prospective owner a copy of the current
regulations PRIOR to
signing any binding contract.

We also had the local 8th grade students read the regulations and any
proposed
amendments. If half of the students couldn't tell us exactly what the
regulation said, it went back to the lawyer for rewrite at the
lawyer's expense.



OK, that's more reasonable than "take it away or go to court.".



Nope. And the primary purpose in my mind was NOT a reduction in
property
values. After having been a ham, elmer, and examiner for damn near 50
years, I
still find a huge tower with beam in a small-lot residential
neighborhood ugly.



I think they're cool. But I really like the Eiffel-like towers the
power company uses.



We discussed politely but firmly. We didn't tell anybody what to do.
We simply
explained what the man already knew and said what we intended to do
about it.
There was no telling anybody anything.




Jesus. Can we spell b i g o t ?????


Jim

Oh sure. And bigotry itself is still legal in the US, as it should be
in a nation which allows freedom of thought. But bigoted actions are
limited. As I understand, the courts will do nothing to enforce a race
related restrictive covanant, even if the buyer and the seller and the
local community support such restrictions. And that comes to my real
problem with Homeowner's Associations. It's not really about antennas
or old cars or knee high grass. That stuff is dealt with every day with
codes and municipal ordinances.

A Homeowner's Association is an extraconstitutional government. I have
no doubt that nearly all Homeowner's Associations are run by decent
people, including yours. But not always:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5efc12221e.htm#38

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAartflag.html

As far as I'm concerned, any attempt to restrict such fundamental rights
as a respectful religious display or display of the US Flag ought to get
laughed out of court, just as an attempt to enforce a racial restrictive
covanant.

Frank Dresser

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:5Dayb.252403$mZ5.1876750@attbi_s54...


Why does it have to be about damn property values? I think CC&Rs are
more
of a way to help make sure that when I sell my home, my neighbors have
not
gotten 'lazy' or 'crazy' over the last 5-30 years and done stupid
crap. Be
it 'get into ham' and erect a stupid looking tower, put cars on
blocks, or
paint their house 5 different colors. Everyone thinks that just
because
property values have almost doubled (and in some cases went up 10 fold
or
more) that the same thing will have in the next 20 years. Again,
CC&Rs are
to protect your investment in your home. You don't gain anything in a
home
sale if you don't sell your home. Would you offer to buy your
neighbors
home if they had documented proof your antenna was scaring away
buyers?


OK, I'm missing something here. First I read:

"Why does it have to be about damn property values?"

Then:

"Again, CC&Rs are to protect your investment in your home."

I'm trying to see the important distinction between "property values"
and "your investment in your home".

Frank Dresser

Midwest Kid wrote:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO

impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.

There are people that won't take a second look at your home if it isn't
the right shade of beige that would like.

You need to be living in a development where every thing is spelled
out. Others do not.

- Mike KB3EIA -

What I read into this thread is there are people in our FREE country
that have a serious need to control other people. Those people like
another poster said are classified as HOA Cops.

When it comes to controlling them they revolt.

What is an AAA zoned area?

I live in a community where the county put in zoning laws many years ago
so the members of the HOA decided to turn over our roads to the county
for maintenance, dissolve the HOA entirely. We figured why pay dues for
road upkeep and some over zealous HOA officer/member who wants to take
his/our neighbor to court for stupid things. We already pay taxes for
road up keep but the county would not enter our plan because it was
considered private property. The only county services we had where
police, fire, ambulance. Now things are going much better. We have all
the services we where paying for but didn't receive before, the HOA Cops
are gone forever and the home owners seem to getting along much better.
There are no junk cars sitting around, no one painted their house bright
pink or any other crazy color, the grass in the yards are trimmed nice,
in fact nothing has changed in that respect. There are two 25 foot
towers now, one with a small beam the other a vertical in the plan, one
is mine. Both are hams and both are involved in emergency communications
during major storms. The neighbors call or stop and get weather updates
so they can make the necessary plans. Not one person has complained
about either of the towers, not one.

By the way, the HOA ex-official moved out about 6 months after the
county took over. He found out this is America, the land of the free.
Factually speaking, his neighbors refused to have anything to do with
him because of his over powering attitude. His friends soon followed him
down the road.

God Bless our "FREE" America.




Uncle Peter wrote:

I don't know where you live, but here we have zoning laws that control
much of the issues you are concerned about; and most towns have
enacted nusiance ordinances to handle less severe problems, such
as uncut grass, etc. BTW, I live in a AAA zoned area, and the ham
tower was not an issue. I kept in at the tree line, in the middle of
the property. Out of sight. Also, at one time I had three towers near
the house. The house next door was sold before it hit the market for
the full asking price.

Pete

JW,

"Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the
rules, either don't move in or once you move in then try to
change them. If a majority of your neighbors agree, it is
changed. That's the way I learned that this country works."

DITTO THAT "JW" !

suyb... ~ RHF
- - - Simply Use Your Brain... Before Using Your Mouth !
..
..
= = = "Stinger"
= = = Wrote in message ...

Well said, Jim.

-- Stinger

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I spent five years on the board of, and two years as the president of, a
721
home development board of directors. We had a few blowhards who, like
many in
here, told us to go to hell and parked cars on blocks and the like.

It wasn't rocket science. We voted a 30 day "take it away or go to
court." We
were impolitely told to go to hell. We didn't go to hell, we went to
court.
Not a big deal. Between the court costs and our lawyer's fees, the
blowhard had
a thousand dollar junk car project to remove. Three or four cases like
that in
the first couple of years and things got remarkably quiet, and we all got
along
like neighbors respecting the wishes of each other.

I took perverse satisfaction in stringing copper tape under the eaves of
the
house, strangely just long enough to make a quarter wave dipole for forty
meters. But it was painted with exactly the same shade that the eaves
were
painted, run with a quarter-gallon with adequate filtering, matched to the
n'th
degree, and worked the world on everything from forty on up. You could
walk
right up to it and not detect that there was an antenna of any sort.

Not to mention the 2-meter groundplane disguised as a chimney strap.
Painted
wrought-iron black and strangely so, 19 inches long. Coax? Run down a
mortar
seam and painted mortar grey. From five feet away, it was
indistinguishable
from the mortar.

I laugh at you blowhards telling us how you will do what you damn well
please
when and where you damn well please to do it. I note that none of you
have
tried it.

Clever works. Big mouths don't. And, if you don't like the rules, either
don't
move in or once you move in then try to change them. If a majority of
your
neighbors agree, it is changed. That's the way I learned that this
country
works.

Jim




..

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:HFayb.256443$9E1.1368062@attbi_s52...

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...


Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO
impact on property values.

That is the whole damn point of CC&R. Your property value doesn't mean
jack
if you cannot SELL your home. There are more people willing to look
elsewhere if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot tower in his/her back
yard.
Again, towers can't hurt 'values' when you can't even get a person to make
an offer.



A buyer is not always a rational person. They may walk away because they
don't like the landscaping or the paint job or whatever. Can you see HV
powerlines from the back yard? Want to bet how many people are certain those
cause cancer? Can you see a cellular tower nearby? Buyers don't want
"radiation". What about a next-door ham antenna? Why not be afraid of that
too? What if that big antenna blew off in a storm? It could hit your house!
And when hams transmit, they make radiation! Who wants to move in next to
some guy who makes radiation for fun?!

You can't talk power levels and ionizing versus non-ionizing, because the
buyer walks before you get that chance. Your neighbors know this, and this
makes them fearful of what might happen to them if they wanted to sell. They
don't care about your right to squirt RF into the world, all they care about
is safeguarding their own families' (perceived) health and protecting the
viability of their one big investment in life.

Some people will give up some of their personal freedom to buy into an area
that has CC&R's, so they can have some assurance that bizarre (by their
perception) things won't happen near their family and investment. And if
they enter this kind of society, they have the right to expect their HOA to
enforce the CC&R's fairly and without exception.

And, just like the USA, a HOA is not a democracy; it is much more like a
constitutional republic. Once again, the homeowner doesn't vote on each and
every issue (democracy). Rather, a board (acting for the homeowners; i.e., a
republic) is elected, and they enforce the CC&R's (the constitution). So
let's not have any more babbling about how a HOA isn't fair because it's not
a democracy.

Ed
WB6WSN

Outwitting -- use Stealth Antennas URL:
http://ac6v.com/antprojects.htm#STANT
AND
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?item=7571

Outsmarting -- Don't buy into an HOA Community
Think Ahead --- An HOA can adapt a no antenna rule anytime they want
Have Big Bucks to fight it in court -- Most HOA's have deep pockets

--
73 From The Wilderness Keyboard
"

In rec.radio.scanner Dee D. Flint wrote:

: Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO impact on
: property values. They also have data showing that, in general, property
: values are rising faster in areas without CCRs & HOAs than in areas with
: them.

I find that hard to believe. Do you really mean to say that a ham with 15
or 20 different antennas and two towers does *nothing* to the property
values of the houses next door?

Richard in Boston, MA, USA
N1JDU

Richard G Amirault wrote:

SNIP

I find that hard to believe. Do you really mean to say that a ham with 15
or 20 different antennas and two towers does *nothing* to the property
values of the houses next door?

Richard in Boston, MA, USA
N1JDU

Yep! He's right!

Go to city hall and ask Mayor Menino if you can get an abatement based
on depeciated value caused by your neighbor's ham antennas. After he
stops laughing ... [you fill in the rest].

I sold my home in Danvers [a Boston suburb for non Bostonians] for $20K
above real estate appraised market evaluation/value of $270K while I had
a Tennadyne T8 [8 element log periodic --- 13 to 33 MHz], a center fed
doublet with open wire feeders, and a 2 meter vertical on top of a 45
foot tower in the back yard. The house sold on first day on market. [The
Danvers Ham community, W1ZH, K1LQX and others, will gladly confirm the
antenna farm].

The buyer's requested assurance that the antenna and tower would be
removed prior to passing papers. My response "Of course!"

Deacon Dave, W1MCE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...

Same organization has data showing it doesn't affect the sale of homes
either.

How about an organization that has a little less bias toward allowing
antennas.

"Richard G Amirault" wrote in message
...

I find that hard to believe. Do you really mean to say that a ham with 15
or 20 different antennas and two towers does *nothing* to the property
values of the houses next door?

That's what hams want you to believe. They are right of course. Lets say
your home is worth $175K before the tower. Then you try to sell your home.
You get no _offers_ because of that antenna field next door. Therefore you
cannot _prove_ that the value of your home went down. Hams are an elite
group of people like others. I find it hard to believe that a ham selling
their home would leave the antennas up while showing the home. Even if they
are going to toss them, any realtor is going to tell the person to take them
down.

"Dave Shrader" wrote in message
news:m9wyb.372045$Tr4.1101837@attbi_s03...

The buyer's requested assurance that the antenna and tower would be
removed prior to passing papers. My response "Of course!"

So here we have:

1: The people did not want the antennas.

2: It's more like "**** my neighbor. If he is selling his home and can't
get a buyer due to my antennas, that's his problem."

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...
There currently exists a rule within the FCC that disallows municipalities
preventing amateur operators from erecting antennas, and a similar rule
for CC&R's is in the works.

If my neighbors use this unjust law to put up an antenna, I hope they don't
plan on selling their home anytime soon. As soon as I see a 4-sale sign in
the neighbors yard, that's when I get into ham myself and erect my big, bad
antenna. Like you hams say, this wouldn't affect the property value or the
sale of the home so my ham neighbor wouldn't say anything to me....right?

" Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news:%Xbyb.22095$yM6.1695@lakeread06...
I kept in at the tree line, in the middle of
the property. Out of sight.

I think how tall the antennas are is what dictates if they are a problems.
Antennas that are as tall as the home and in the back yard really wouldn't
be a a problem for me. Huge big, bad antennas would.

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

I'm trying to see the important distinction between "property values"
and "your investment in your home".

Investment in your home, to me, means what you paid for your home. Property
value is what someone is supposedly willing to pay for your land and home.
It doesn't necessary mean your actual investment in the home. If a chemical
spill is discovered near the area, your property value might be $50K while
your investment could be $100K (what you paid for your home). People want to
equate property values with an investment that will _always_ go up, mostly
due to the real estate boom over the last 3 decades or so. I don't see many
people like that. Out of all my family, only a cousin actually rents a
home. No many people buy a home, let it sit empty and hope that they can
sell it for 30% more in a year. That is the main problem with CC&R. People
think they are a way to help your property value increase. That's stupid
logic. They should be more worried about just making sure they get what
they put into the home. I believe CC&Rs do that. They make it so people can
sell their home. I personally wouldn't have a problem with a ham antenna as
long as it didn't interfere with anything in my home. If it did, I would
ask the person to take it down. Chances are I would be a good friend to my
neighbors since I am pretty easy to get along with. It's when hams get this
attitude (like I am seeing here) spouting off: "Well, I got a new law
supporting me so not much you or anyone else can do." That's when the
gloves come off. Screw them. They thought they had a friend....I hope the
person never needs something or tries to make small talk.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
gy.com...
The problem is that in some places in this country finding an area without
CCRs that will mean an unreasonably long communte to work.

That's my point. It seems more and more, no one is willing to compromise.
Hams want no CC&R and have everything want. Scanner people want what they
want. Short-wave people want what they want. My commute is 20 miles. I
would be fine with driving 30. Some people can't stand that, so they live
in vinyl villages and in urban areas. Some people think 10 miles or more of
a drive to work is horrible. I don't see how these people would survive if
they had not found their little niche a few decades ago. Would they just be
bitter? I know that if I want to live rural, I have to look at almost a 30
mile drive. So? I save my money and take care of my car. If it's that big
of deal, buy a Honda. Of course then there are the rich folks who can never
been seen in a Honda. Those are the people I tell to go buy an Acura!!

I have seen this attitude more and more with the younger generation. No
home less than 5 years old. Fancy SUVs, etc etc. Live paycheck to
paycheck. These are actually the CC&R cops you people talk about. Always
bitching about so and so violating this and that.....only because they think
their home is going to double in value in 10 years. Me, I hope to live as
rural as possible. Even if that means my ham can put up 500 towers.
Depending on what it does/doesn't do to my electronics and his/her attitude
after I let them know about it, will determine if I see them as friend or
foe. Hams serve a purpose, a good one....but this doesn't mean they should
use some law to skirt the rules of a contract they were never forced into.

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:21:24 +0000 (UTC), Richard G Amirault
wrote:

In rec.radio.scanner Dee D. Flint wrote:

: Contact the ARRL. They have data that shows that antennas have NO impact on
: property values. They also have data showing that, in general, property
: values are rising faster in areas without CCRs & HOAs than in areas with
: them.

I find that hard to believe. Do you really mean to say that a ham with 15
or 20 different antennas and two towers does *nothing* to the property
values of the houses next door?

Now that is one of those open ended questions and gets an "it all
depends" for an answer.

If you mean an installation such as
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower30.htm
The answer is no. In the photo there are beams for 20, 15, 10(1),
6(1), 2(2), and 440(2) for a total of 6. plus two verticals for 144
and 440 and a multi band vertical on a 32 foot tower for 9. Then
wire antennas for 75 (2) and 40 (1) for 12. Then three dishes for
satellite and microwave for 15 and two UHF TV antennas for a total of
17. It's not figured in the evaluation of our property as either a
plus or minus.

It's a rural subdivision that is heavily wooded. Except for a couple
of back yards and a corner lot the system is not readily visible. Yet
from half a mile away it stands out readily, being well above the tree
line. The house to the south just sold with nary a question as to the
antennas.

When I first installed the top mast one neighbor asked about it
falling over. We measured the distance and he was well outside the
radius. Plus they now call it the neighbor hood lightening rod as they
have seen it get hit at least twice while they were sitting in their
family room watching a storm. They also watch to see what we do when
the weather gets bad and have the local repeater on their scanner.

Nothing else in the neighborhood has been struck since I put it up.

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Richard in Boston, MA, USA
N1JDU

"Midwest Kid" wrote:

"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
It does amaze me, Pappy, how many are
so willing to accept, and even defend,
additional restrictions on people's lives and
property in this supposedly free country of
ours.

Please show us one case where someone was
force (with a gun, knife, etc) to buy a home in
a CC&R neighborhood. No one is forced to
buy a home in CC&R. If you don't want
CC&R, move.


Nobody today was forced with a gun, knife, or whatever, to be born in this
country either, but we still have restrictions on the government's ability
to interfere with our lives (without having to move to get it). The same
cannot be said for CC&R's. These homeowners associations, and their CC&R's,
restrict our lives in ways our federal government would not even consider.
The only way to escape those restrictions is to move - in a country where
homeowners associations, and their CC&R's, are spreading to the point where
there may someday be no free place left to move to.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Midwest Kid" wrote:

(snip) Your property value doesn't mean
jack if you cannot SELL your home. There
are more people willing to look elsewhere
if my damn neighbor has some 20+ foot
tower in his/her back yard. (snip)


Do you have any reliable evidence of this? I've seen nothing that suggests
people aren't willing to purchase homes with antennas in the neighborhood.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Midwest Kid" wrote:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote:
Same organization has data showing it
doesn't affect the sale of homes either.

How about an organization that has a little
less bias toward allowing antennas.


Okay, how about that organization? Which organization has data showing
antennas in a neighborhood have a negative affect on the sale of homes?


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Midwest Kid" wrote:

My county just east of Indy has plenty of
non CC&R neighborhoods. (snip)


I worked in Indianapolis several years ago (as a security specialist for
DFAS in what was once Ft. Ben Harrision). Since the DoD supplied our
residence, we were not personally affected by CC&R's. However, we did
casually look into purchasing a house with the idea of possibly making that
area our home. During that process, we ran into several houses with CC&R's
(especially in the north-eastern part of town). But, on the south side of
town, none of the houses had a CC&R. That has probably changed today. But I
don't doubt the mostly open, mostly country, areas east of Indy are still
relatively free of CC&R's.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
et...
However, we did
casually look into purchasing a house with the idea of possibly making
that
area our home. During that process, we ran into several houses with
CC&R's (especially in the north-eastern part of town). But, on the south
side of town, none of the houses had a CC&R. But I don't doubt the mostly
open, mostly country, areas east of Indy are still relatively free of
CC&R's.

I do not know of _any_ single addition that was built in the 70s/80s without
CC&Rs actually vote to have them. In my area alone, there are 4 older
neighborhoods....none of them have CC&Rs. CC&Rs were rare and usually for
the high end neighborhoods. Now all the newer neighborhoods have CC&Rs.
The whole point is that besides the northside, Hamilton Co., and newer
additions...Indy provides plenty of neighborhoods on all sides that do not
have CC&Rs. I guess that is why I like it here and decided against moving
to see other parts of the country. I can only imagine how horrible mega
cities are. Still, fact is that Indy does offer plenty in terms of jobs in
almost all fields...especially bio-technology tied in with pharmaceuticals.
If I ever moved it would be to a like size city, and Montana, Idaho area
would be my first choice.

"craigm" wrote in message
...
Which cities in Montana and Idaho are the same size as Indianpolis?

Largest cities...

Billings, MT 131,622
Boise, ID 185,787

Indianapolis, IN 1,607,486

There were 3 times more people in Indy in 1910 than there are in Boise
today..

Strange thing about home values, investment, etc -- In Silicon Valley aka
San Francisco Bay Area - homes are in the high 100,000+ -- many a Million+
and many with no HOA and old TV/FM antennas left on the roof -- as well as
more than the average number of Ham antennas.

--
73 From The Wilderness Keyboard

"Midwest Kid" wrote in message
news:6_Ayb.270995$275.965769@attbi_s53...


Investment in your home, to me, means what you paid for your home.
Property
value is what someone is supposedly willing to pay for your land and
home.
It doesn't necessary mean your actual investment in the home. If a
chemical
spill is discovered near the area, your property value might be $50K
while
your investment could be $100K (what you paid for your home). People
want to
equate property values with an investment that will _always_ go up,
mostly
due to the real estate boom over the last 3 decades or so. I don't
see many
people like that. Out of all my family, only a cousin actually rents
a
home. No many people buy a home, let it sit empty and hope that they
can
sell it for 30% more in a year. That is the main problem with CC&R.
People
think they are a way to help your property value increase. That's
stupid
logic. They should be more worried about just making sure they get
what
they put into the home. I believe CC&Rs do that. They make it so
people can
sell their home.


I don't know if CC&Rs help home sales. People buy and sell homes
without CC&Rs just fine. CC&Rs may be a negitive factor, if you
consider the large number of potential buyers who don't like CC&Rs.


I personally wouldn't have a problem with a ham antenna as
long as it didn't interfere with anything in my home. If it did, I
would
ask the person to take it down. Chances are I would be a good friend
to my
neighbors since I am pretty easy to get along with. It's when hams
get this
attitude (like I am seeing here) spouting off: "Well, I got a new law
supporting me so not much you or anyone else can do." That's when the
gloves come off. Screw them. They thought they had a friend....I
hope the
person never needs something or tries to make small talk.



Well, people do have rights, although the right to put up an antenna may
not be among the rights the Constitutional government was formed to
protect.

As far as the value of a Homeowner's Association is concerned, I guess
it comes down to which of your neighbors deserve the most distrust.
Will it be the new neighbor who inexplicably paints his new, expensive
house pink and black like a box of Ju-Ju Bees? Or will it be the new
age neighbors who replace the previous reasonable board members with a
bunch of Feng Shui loonies?

They'll come and do a walkaround with their compasses and tape measures
and notebooks.

"Pull up those pink flamingoes and put wind chimes here."

"You must plant a tree. I marked the correct location with a stake."

"Move that doorway to here. No, not there -- HERE!!"

"Bad Feng Shui is bad for property values!!"

Can't happen? Of course not! Not in anyplace that can't stop a
respectful flag display or religious monument.

Frank Dresser

"craigm" wrote in message
..

Which cities in Montana and Idaho are the same size as Indianpolis?

I should have said the size of Indy or smaller.