"RHF" wrote in message
om.
...

FIRST - Check Your A/C Power Outlets with an A/C Outlet Analyzer like
the RadioShack # 22-141. This simple devise WARNS you of Faulty Wiring in
3-Prong 110-125 VAC Outlets in your Household.

Out of curiosity I just checked RS and they do still stock these ($5.95) but
about a year ago I purchased 4 of them on a close out for .99 ea.. Yes, they
are handy . I already had one but could never find it when I needed it,
don't have that problem now that I have 5.

Ya never know at the big red R, several months ago I purchased a 7.5 watt
amplified mobile speaker for just a few bucks on a close out (should have
bought more). They now have same speaker (same model number, same store)
back on the shelf for $27.95. RM~

Now understand that the device does not detect and does not
claim to detect earth ground. That obvious is one understands
what that $6 Radio Shack tester does. There is no simple
device to verify integrity of earth ground. And that Radio
Shack tester will only report a failed safety ground - not to
be confused with earth ground. That Radio Shack tester will
not report a good safety ground. It can only report a failed
safety ground. It, or a 3.5 digit multimeter, will detect
some safety ground problems.

This discussion is about earthing. Any wire that is 1/4
wavelength or longer is an antenna - not an earthing wire.
For 60 Hz AC electric, a long wire to earth may be an earth
ground. But this discussion is about radio frequencies and
noise. That distance to earth ground must be shorter. It is
just another reason why the incoming wire first makes a less
than 10 foot connection, either via surge protector or
hardwired, to the building's single point earth ground. As
was noted in earlier posts, using multiple (separate) grounds
can create problems both for humans and transistors. Problems
that the three light tester will never detect.

That three light tester is only a preliminary check. But
there really is no substitution for visual inspection.

Rob Mills wrote:

"RHF" wrote in message
om.
..
FIRST - Check Your A/C Power Outlets with an A/C Outlet
Analyzer like the RadioShack # 22-141. This simple devise
WARNS you of Faulty Wiring in 3-Prong 110-125 VAC Outlets
in your Household.

Out of curiosity I just checked RS and they do still stock these
($5.95) but about a year ago I purchased 4 of them on a close out
for .99 ea.. Yes, they are handy . I already had one but could
never find it when I needed it, don't have that problem now that
I have 5.
...

The electric idiot strikes again.


"w_tom" wrote in message
...

(bunches of useless horse****)

How would you build a counterpoise for an inverted-L?

CW wrote:

Counterpoise.

"starman" wrote in message
...
I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple
the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective
(short) earth ground connection?



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Same way you would for a verticle. Radials.

"starman" wrote in message
...
How would you build a counterpoise for an inverted-L?

CW wrote:

Counterpoise.

"starman" wrote in message
...
I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple
the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective
(short) earth ground connection?



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starman wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:

It's the improved decoupling of the feedline
from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not
the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling
of the line.

I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple
the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective
(short) earth ground connection?

As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets
say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of
radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is
no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a
lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise
ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of
decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection
under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method
that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not
just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good
decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv
L's. MK

= = = "CW"
= = = wrote in message ...

The electric idiot strikes again.


"w_tom" wrote in message
...

(bunches of useless horse****)


CW,

Shauuu ... You'l wake him up again.


Time to Check and Adjust my 'Inverted "CK" Antenna'
( AHaaa... Now I Am Safe )

Near Field Mode: "Tune-In-the-Truth"
(What Ever It May Be)

- - - A-n-D - - -

Far Field Mode: "Tune-Out-the-Absurd"
(I Don't Know What You Call It... But I Know It - When I Hear It !)


So Say I ~ RHF
The Inventor of the 'Inverted "CK" Antenna'

..

..

Mark Keith wrote:

starman wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:

It's the improved decoupling of the feedline
from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not
the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling
of the line.

I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple
the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective
(short) earth ground connection?

As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets
say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of
radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is
no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a
lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise
ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of
decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection
under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method
that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not
just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good
decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv
L's. MK

I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively
decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use
radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials
in that case?


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STARMAN,

At the Base Feed Point of the Inverted "L" Antenna two Radials
opposite each other set at 90 Degrees to the Horizontal Arm as
viewed from the Top. The Radials should be as long as the
Vertical Leg of the Inverted "L" Antenna.

* Inverted "L' Antenna Reading List
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...na/message/374

* Inverted "L" Antenna for Transmitting by Dr. Ace
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...na/message/309
Typically: Quarter (1/4) Wave Length Long and 1/8th WL High

* Inverted "L" Antenna as an 'available space' SWL Antenna
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...nna/message/54
Typically: For a SWL Receive ONLY Antenna of any Random Length
With the Horizontal Arm 'twice' (2X) as long as the Vertical Leg.


iane ~ RHF
..
..
= = = starman
= = = wrote in message ...

Mark Keith wrote:

starman wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:

It's the improved decoupling of the feedline
from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not
the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling
of the line.

I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple
the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective
(short) earth ground connection?

As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets
say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of
radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is
no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a
lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise
ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of
decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection
under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method
that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not
just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good
decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv
L's. MK

I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively
decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use
radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials
in that case?

starman wrote in message ...


I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively
decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use
radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials
in that case?




On the ground. And in that case, I almost always do ground the radials
to earth at the feedpoint. Radials on the ground are detuned, and are
not required to be cut to any certain length. So they are not really
resonant at any given freq like elevated radials, or if they are, it's
likely not where you would expect. They normally need to be resonant
to decouple the feedline, so it's best to also ground them if they are
on the ground and detuned. If you had an elevated GP with 1/4 wave
radials for a certain freq, they will not work at say twice that freq.
"1/2 waves" They would show a high impedance, and the radial system
would not function properly, and the decoupling would be poor. But 3/4
wave radials can work ok, as they show a low Z. The best ground
planes, verticals , etc use twin decoupling sections. IE: a 1/4 wave
ground plane with a set of 1/4 wave radials, would have a second set
of 1/4 wave radials, 1/4 wave below the main set. Or if a sleeve
vertical, two sets of cones, tubes, etc. You can also use chokes,
ferrite beads as extra decoupling with any coax system. I'm not
against grounding in some cases. I just wanted to clarify that it's
really the improved decoupling, rather than the addition of ground per
say, that reduces the noise ingress. Grounding is just one method used
to improve decoupling of the line in some cases. Usually with radials
on the ground, or when using no radials at all. If the antenna is
already balanced and properly decoupled, adding an "rf ground" will
not do a thing as far as noise ingress. Might even make things worse
being ground is usually a noise source. MK