Michael Bryant wrote:

From: "Stinger"

Jesus never advocated "taking." He advocated "giving."

He also advocated paying your taxes.

So in other words, if some government entity taxes the crap out of us we
should just pay it because your 'mythical figure' Jesus said so?

Give me a break Fat Boy.

He advocated helping the needy.

Nothing wrong with that Fat Boy... that's just something any good human
being does, regardless of 'Jesus'.

From: N8KDV

So in other words, if some government entity taxes the crap out of us we
should just pay it because your 'mythical figure' Jesus said so?

Jesus was not a mythical figure. His life and death are both historically
documented. Learning a little more about what this real person had to say while
he was on this planet might do wonders for that surly personality of yours,
Steve.


Michael Bryant, WA4009SWL
Louisville, KY
R75, S800, RX320, SW77, ICF2010K,
DX398, 7600G, 6800W, RF2200, 7600A
GE SRll, Pro-2006, Pro-2010, Pro-76
(remove "nojunk" to reply)

Michael Bryant wrote:

From: N8KDV

So in other words, if some government entity taxes the crap out of us we
should just pay it because your 'mythical figure' Jesus said so?

Jesus was not a mythical figure. His life and death are both historically
documented. Learning a little more about what this real person had to say while
he was on this planet might do wonders for that surly personality of yours,
Steve.

Sorry, there is no contemporary record that shows that that particular 'Jesus'
actually lived.

From: N8KDV

Sorry, there is no contemporary record that shows that that particular
'Jesus'
actually lived.

Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?

The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and
historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to
have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look
at what some of these people have said.

Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been
described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral
uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals
relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s
death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and
finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s
decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the
founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of
Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of
Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to
Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or
Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It
would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never
existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without
betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He
therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to
Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that
Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the
reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s
government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from
Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus
[another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible
for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the
emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people
on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ
because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went
dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when
Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic
philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews
executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious
authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died
some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous
passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him
the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually
rose from the dead!

The four Gospels

The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in
the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer
an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the
generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events.
Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been
written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD.
50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel
sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is
clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of
Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living
memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period,
but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the
earlier Gospels.

Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew
Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally.
Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a
close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most
prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of
Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest
contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of
Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of
Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously!

Steve, open your eyes!

Michael Bryant, WA4009SWL
Louisville, KY
R75, S800, RX320, SW77, ICF2010K,
DX398, 7600G, 6800W, RF2200, 7600A
GE SRll, Pro-2006, Pro-2010, Pro-76
(remove "nojunk" to reply)

Michael Bryant wrote:

Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?


Not to detract from the above. There are very strange similarities to
Osiris and others. Religion has a very long history.

==========================================
Osiris:

He came to fulfill the law.

Called "KRST," the "Anointed One."

Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with
his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men.

Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.")

At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was
baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

Baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the
Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.)

Traveled widely, taught men and "tamed them by music and gentleness, not
by force of arms" [Plutarch]

Performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead.

Walked on water.

Betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the
month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day
(19th Athyr) and was resurrected.

His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His
disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.

Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,'
the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth."

Expected to reign a thousand years.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker...ts.html#osiris

MWB - Nicely Presented ~ RHF
..
..
= = = ocom (Michael Bryant) wrote in message
= = = ...
From: N8KDV

Sorry, there is no contemporary record that shows that that particular
'Jesus'
actually lived.

Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?

The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and
historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to
have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look
at what some of these people have said.

Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been
described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral
uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals
relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s
death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and
finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s
decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the
founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of
Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of
Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to
Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or
Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It
would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never
existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without
betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He
therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to
Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that
Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the
reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s
government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from
Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus
[another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible
for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the
emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people
on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ
because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went
dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when
Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic
philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews
executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious
authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died
some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous
passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him
the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually
rose from the dead!

The four Gospels

The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in
the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer
an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the
generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events.
Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been
written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD.
50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel
sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is
clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of
Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living
memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period,
but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the
earlier Gospels.

Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew
Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally.
Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a
close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most
prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of
Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest
contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of
Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of
Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously!

Steve, open your eyes!

Michael Bryant, WA4009SWL
Louisville, KY
R75, S800, RX320, SW77, ICF2010K,
DX398, 7600G, 6800W, RF2200, 7600A
GE SRll, Pro-2006, Pro-2010, Pro-76
(remove "nojunk" to reply)

I'll omit the posting to which RHF is responding. All
of the sources, except for the Gospels, cited in that
post are already hearsay reports, or merely refer to the
beliefs of the Christians. Josephus to take just one
example, "affirms" that Jesus rose from the dead, but he
wasn't even born when the event he "affirms" occurred.

I'm not taking a position on whether there was a real
Jesus, but the citations in MWB's post certainly don't
constitute independent evidence of anything.


RHF wrote:
MWB - Nicely Presented ~ RHF
.
.

From: N8KDV

He advocated helping the needy.

Nothing wrong with that Fat Boy... that's just something any good human
being does, regardless of 'Jesus'.


Document the last time you helped the needy, Steve. Does that mean that you're
admitting you're not a good human being?

Like the answer isn't crystal clear....
Michael Bryant, WA4009SWL
Louisville, KY
R75, S800, RX320, SW77, ICF2010K,
DX398, 7600G, 6800W, RF2200, 7600A
GE SRll, Pro-2006, Pro-2010, Pro-76
(remove "nojunk" to reply)

Michael Bryant wrote:

From: N8KDV

He advocated helping the needy.

Nothing wrong with that Fat Boy... that's just something any good human
being does, regardless of 'Jesus'.


Document the last time you helped the needy, Steve. Does that mean that you're
admitting you're not a good human being?

We're not talking about me today Fat Boy... we're talking about YOU!

Document whether or not you've ever shared drugs with others.

Document whether you've ever sold drugs, or not sold drugs.



Like the answer isn't crystal clear....
Michael Bryant, WA4009SWL
Louisville, KY
R75, S800, RX320, SW77, ICF2010K,
DX398, 7600G, 6800W, RF2200, 7600A
GE SRll, Pro-2006, Pro-2010, Pro-76
(remove "nojunk" to reply)

N8KDV schrieb:


Document whether...

Take a bath and beware of the whales.