CaveDweller wrote:

Of course, I'm interested in the lowest noise possible, but my main
concern is protecting my new baby.


This is a nice, simple solution. I had to go back in time to find it for
you.


http://www.gutenberg.net/cdproject/c...ah/fig006c.png


mike




--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

©Densa International
'Think tanks cleaned cheap'

"m II" wrote
CaveDweller wrote:

Of course, I'm interested in the lowest noise possible, but my main
concern is protecting my new baby.


This is a nice, simple solution. I had to go back in time to find it for
you.


http://www.gutenberg.net/cdproject/c...ah/fig006c.png


mike


NO!

That drawing, taken on it's own, will allow a nearby strike to blow your
radio into pieces so fine you can clean up with a duster. Why? Becasue the
electric power ground (house entrance), and cold water ground (a different
entrance than AC service 99% of the time), and that phony knife-switch
"protector" ground rod, are all at different locations and will have
*enormous* electrical potential between them . Saturated ground from a
lightning strike anywhere nearby will cause races of destructive energy
betweeen all those points, and your radio will be that expensive fuse Mike
mentioned. That is one more drawing of a dozen I have collected of
terrible, mistaken beliefs that isolating "one part" (ie: antenna) can allow
you to make careless errors in other areas. You can't make even one mistake
with lightning! That cold water ground would have to be disconnected, the AC
power disconnected, and that knife switch would have to have isolation over
a FOOT apart to be even remotely safe.

*Or*, if you guys will take the time to read what bonding is all about, all
those systems could have been bonded, a good coax arrestor used instead of
that deadly knife-switch, the coax shield grounded to the rod before it
reached the arrestor, and *then* all you would have to disconnect is the AC
power. Only proper interior surge suppression can allow the safe connection
of AC power to equipment, and that's after all other lightning protection
measures have been taken. So scrap the "here's a simple old idea", and "tie
some granny knots in the cords for good luck" stuff guys. They don't work.

Jack

Jack Painter wrote:
"m II" wrote

CaveDweller wrote:


Of course, I'm interested in the lowest noise possible, but my main
concern is protecting my new baby.


This is a nice, simple solution. I had to go back in time to find it for
you.


http://www.gutenberg.net/cdproject/c...ah/fig006c.png


mike



NO!

That drawing, taken on it's own, will allow a nearby strike to blow your
radio into pieces so fine you can clean up with a duster. Why? Becasue the
electric power ground (house entrance), and cold water ground (a different
entrance than AC service 99% of the time), and that phony knife-switch
"protector" ground rod, are all at different locations and will have
*enormous* electrical potential between them .


I disagree. A big knife switch will have a few INCHES of air gap between
the common and the radio feed. At roughly 20K volts per inch needed to
jump the gap to the disconnected radio, any few volt difference between
grounding potentials is immaterial.

Check the diagram. The radio is **never** connected to the ground rod.
It's only meant to discharge antenna static to ground

Also, this switch is an ISOLATING switch and not meant in any case to
supplant a proper lightning protection set up.


A metal cold water line coming into the house is the PREFERRED code
ground for the house (system) wiring. An artificial electrode like a
ground rod/plate may be used if plastic line is coming in for the water,
but NOT if metal water line is available.

To make you even more paranoid, the electrical code, at least here, says
the ground rod/pipe may NOT have a resistance greater than TEN ohms
between it and ground. Up to ten ohms is code acceptable.

That means on a nominal 120 volt residential circuit, a fault current of
up to TWELVE amps may be flowing at all times and not even trip the
breaker.



mike


--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

©Densa International
'Think tanks cleaned cheap'

"m II" wrote
Jack Painter wrote:
"m II" wrote
CaveDweller wrote:

Of course, I'm interested in the lowest noise possible, but my main
concern is protecting my new baby.

This is a nice, simple solution. I had to go back in time to find it for
you.

http://www.gutenberg.net/cdproject/c...ah/fig006c.png

mike

NO!

That drawing, taken on it's own, will allow a nearby strike to blow your
radio into pieces so fine you can clean up with a duster. Why? Becasue
the
electric power ground (house entrance), and cold water ground (a
different
entrance than AC service 99% of the time), and that phony knife-switch
"protector" ground rod, are all at different locations and will have
*enormous* electrical potential between them .


I disagree. A big knife switch will have a few INCHES of air gap between
the common and the radio feed. At roughly 20K volts per inch needed to
jump the gap to the disconnected radio, any few volt difference between
grounding potentials is immaterial.

Check the diagram. The radio is **never** connected to the ground rod.
It's only meant to discharge antenna static to ground

Also, this switch is an ISOLATING switch and not meant in any case to
supplant a proper lightning protection set up.


A metal cold water line coming into the house is the PREFERRED code
ground for the house (system) wiring. An artificial electrode like a
ground rod/plate may be used if plastic line is coming in for the water,
but NOT if metal water line is available.

To make you even more paranoid, the electrical code, at least here, says
the ground rod/pipe may NOT have a resistance greater than TEN ohms
between it and ground. Up to ten ohms is code acceptable.

That means on a nominal 120 volt residential circuit, a fault current of
up to TWELVE amps may be flowing at all times and not even trip the
breaker.

mike


Hi Mike,

You are very confused about this, and I will try to correct your
misunderstandings.

1. The dwg at
http://www.gutenberg.net/cdproject/c...ah/fig006c.png allows a
path for lightning to the radio at all times, whether the radio is connected
to AC at the time or not. I warned readers that such simple fixes were
dangerous and improper, specifically because such dwgs do not show or
explain that there is a connection via the knife-switch ground, AC ground
and that cold water ground that could have disasterous effects in the event
of a nearby strike. It's also clear that you don't understand how those
paths exist, but presumably you are in this discussion to learn something.

2. Cold water line is not authorized as AC service entrance ground, and a
second ground may never be made to it under any circumstances without
bonding of all systems. Older homes that used cold water ground remain legal
unless modified or upgraded to comply with current code.

But....
When a homeowner connects an external antenna to a radio inside the home,
many electrical principals, code requirements and lightning protection
issues come into play that were not a concern beforehand. When you are
dealing with 100Mv potential from cloud to ground, it is totally immaterial
what you think you know about 20Kv potentials. Now, DC resistance of a
system is almost meaningless, and the inductive effects prevail. Separation
of unbonded systems should be a minumum of 3 feet, not fractions of an inch
as would suffice for 120/240v fault protection. Most lighning protection
designs account for the most probable condition of indirect nearby strikes,
in which the ground will raise from 0v to several hundred thousand volts.
Every part of a home and station's connection to ground will be connected to
part of this potential, and the differential voltages across unbonded
systems are absolutely explosive in such cases.

You were not exposed to such risk before you strung up or erected antennas
in the air and made grounding connections at different places such as your
RF radio ground, outside antenna ground, coax shield at the radio case, and
AC ground from the radio case to your home wiring. When you add a cold water
ground to the mix you increase the potential for damage even more. This is
why electrical bonding of all systems is so critical, and that bonding must
be of extremely low impedance (not just DC resistance!) to maintain the
lowest possible potential between all parts of the grounding system.

You did make one comment that was accurate, and that was the importance of
disconnecting the system to protect it. For the most basic kinds of hobby
listening, tossing the antenna feedline out the window and unplugging the
radio long before a thunderstorm arrives will be suffcient. But making any
kind of ground connection (be it cold water, under-house, external RF
ground, etc) let the user beware! They must disconnect all connections that
are not a permanent, bonded connections designed to withstand the extremely
high potentials from nearby lightning strikes.

The earth is the final destination of all lightning, and all lightning
rasies earth-ground potential to voltages no home wiring was designed or is
capable of handling. Bonding is what prevents our systems from having to
carry current that would violently and completely destroy it. Current only
flows when differences of potential (voltage) occur. Is this making things
a little clearer?

Best regards,

Jack

Jack Painter wrote:

Hi Mike,

You are very confused about this, and I will try to correct your
misunderstandings.


Funny, I don't FEEL confused.



=====================================
If you do not use the water pipes as the primary grounding electrode,
because there is no metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth at
least 10’ in length, NEC 250.52.A.1 and if your water pipes are metal,
then you must bond your metal water pipes to the grounding electrode
system. NEC 250.104.A

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/hom...ter/meter.html

or

http://snipurl.com/9gn8

=====================================

Important: The buildings cold water piping is often used to ground the
electrical system in the building.

http://www.e-watertechnologies.com/P...tructions.html


=====================================


http://www.codecheck.com/imagetoo/gecmetal.gif
http://www.codecheck.com/eleccode.htm#anchor1133890

=====================================

While it may be true in our radio world that you can never have enough
grounding for your equipment, The National Electrical Code might not
agree with the philosophy of installing a seperate ground rod at your
home for your radio equipment.

According to the National Electric Code, the telephone service, cable
TV, satellite, and other antenna grounds must be connected to the same
ground point of the incoming electrical service to provide proper
protection. Many times this is not done correctly.

Power surges can enter the house through the electrical, cable TV (or
satellite dish cable), or telephone services. According to the National
Electrical Code, when designing and building a new ham shack, you should
locate the cable TV service and telephone service entrance into the
house near the electrical service entrance. This will help in two ways:

It is very important that each of these systems be grounded to the same
physical ground point as the electrical service. In all cases, the cable
TV and telephone grounds must be physically connected to the ground of
the electrical system. A ground wire must be run from the telephone and
the exterior cable TV boxes to the electric service ground point.


http://www.eham.net/articles/6848?eh...61e080ac23c416

OR:

http://snipurl.com/9gn0
=======================================



Each house also has a good local ground which is connected to input
mains power neutral wire. For example typical small house could use
system such as an 8 ft ground rod or a cold water pipe


http://www.epanorama.net/links/wire_...html#grounding
========================================



mike

--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

©Densa International
'Think tanks cleaned cheap'

Mike, why don't you just read my website, because it covers with up to date
information, all the issues that take months of internet and code text
research to locate. For instance, there is never any "separate grounding
system", this is a phrase you continue to repeat, and it is never
authorized. My website integrates grounding, bonding, surge suppression and
lightning protection, all of which must be taken as a whole in order to
protect personnel and equipment. I also understand you are in Canada, which
parallels but has some differences from US electrical codes. Individual
states/provinces also have specific requirements, but may not be less than
the national standards. For the US, the National Electrical Code (NEC-70)
and National Fire Protection Association NFPA-780 (which owns all NEC
material) is not available on the internet. It is sold in printed and CD
format only. Today, October 1, 2004, the printed version of the NFPA most
recent edition was released. As soon as my copy arrives I will make an
appropriate adjustments necessary.

http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/grounding.htm

Best regards,

Jack

"m II" wrote in message
news:2H67d.239$N%.81@edtnps84...
Jack Painter wrote:

Hi Mike,

You are very confused about this, and I will try to correct your
misunderstandings.


Funny, I don't FEEL confused.



=====================================
If you do not use the water pipes as the primary grounding electrode,
because there is no metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth at
least 10’ in length, NEC 250.52.A.1 and if your water pipes are metal,
then you must bond your metal water pipes to the grounding electrode
system. NEC 250.104.A


http://www.homewiringandmore.com/hom...ter/meter.html

or

http://snipurl.com/9gn8

=====================================

Important: The buildings cold water piping is often used to ground the
electrical system in the building.

http://www.e-watertechnologies.com/P...tructions.html


=====================================


http://www.codecheck.com/imagetoo/gecmetal.gif
http://www.codecheck.com/eleccode.htm#anchor1133890

=====================================

While it may be true in our radio world that you can never have enough
grounding for your equipment, The National Electrical Code might not
agree with the philosophy of installing a seperate ground rod at your
home for your radio equipment.

According to the National Electric Code, the telephone service, cable
TV, satellite, and other antenna grounds must be connected to the same
ground point of the incoming electrical service to provide proper
protection. Many times this is not done correctly.

Power surges can enter the house through the electrical, cable TV (or
satellite dish cable), or telephone services. According to the National
Electrical Code, when designing and building a new ham shack, you should
locate the cable TV service and telephone service entrance into the
house near the electrical service entrance. This will help in two ways:

It is very important that each of these systems be grounded to the same
physical ground point as the electrical service. In all cases, the cable
TV and telephone grounds must be physically connected to the ground of
the electrical system. A ground wire must be run from the telephone and
the exterior cable TV boxes to the electric service ground point.


http://www.eham.net/articles/6848?eh...61e080ac23c416

OR:

http://snipurl.com/9gn0
=======================================



Each house also has a good local ground which is connected to input
mains power neutral wire. For example typical small house could use
system such as an 8 ft ground rod or a cold water pipe


http://www.epanorama.net/links/wire_...html#grounding
========================================



mike

--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

©Densa International
'Think tanks cleaned cheap'