Jack Painter wrote:

"Telamon" wrote
That is simple it is a vertical dipole where the angle between the two
elements is something other than 180 degrees. You would need two instead
of one mast. Maybe you could call it a vertical C instead.

There is some confusion here regarding vertical and horizontal
polarization and the V height. Ace is being physically descriptive and
Jack is talking about the electric polarization.

I have not looked up the efficiency but I expect that the V is more
lossy for transmitting and that does not apply to receiving. The angle
for receiving will affect the angle of reception though.


Telamon,

If you can figure out why dxAce would make personal attacks on me while we
were having a polite discussion about antennas, good luck. I quoted his
misunderstanding of the original poster's comments three times, and that
poster even verified I was describing exactly what he wanted, while dxAce
was not. Ace never envisioned a "vertical dipole" such as you gave him an
out for above.

Bull****... it was you who could not understand a 'vertical vee'.

Nor was he trying to compare polarization of any kind.

Bull****, 'tard boy.

He
just can't read or listen today.

You obviously can't read last week or tomorrow!

Nor does he understand what lossy means,
such as an inverted-vee can receive much better than it's lossy
transmitting, nearly equaling the horizontal dipole in most reception but
falling far short in transmitting compared to same.

BS... transmitting losses are pretty much the same as receiving losses.

And all center-fed
dipoles have small bandwidth, but of course they work well with a tuner
above their cut frequency.

And indeed, inverted vee's have a smaller bandwidth than a standard dipole...
that's one you refused to answer!

I replaced an inverted-vee with a horizontal
dipole years ago, and the same antenna horizontally can do with 125 watts
that which took 1,000 watts to accomplish with the vee.

But in what direction? Are we comparing apples to oranges here?

The lossiness comes
mainly from the antennas ends of a vee approaching far to close to the
ground. The horizontal dipole at minimum 1/4 wavelength above ground is
about 80% efficient. At 1/2 wavelength is it over 90% efficient, even over
lossy ground. But receiving has nothing to do with the ground losses from
transmitting from a dipole, and poor Ace is determined to dig himself into a
deeper and deeper hole on that simple fact.

The only hole you've dug yourself in is trying to portray yourself as a
homebound Coasty who can transmit on 8983 and 5696 when the regualars can't seem
to hear. Give me a frickin break... or prove it!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

"dxAce" wrote
But I'm still waiting for the fellow who supposedly has a Coast Guard
setup in
his home to say something on 8983!

By the way... I checked it out (months ago) ... and as far as I can
determine
they've never heard of him. But perhaps he might provide something a bit
more
definitive.

Ace, we once had pleasant conversations, and I enjoyed talking with you
then. Too bad you have now degenerated through no provocation from me into
someone I don't know, and don't want to know either. But since you made a
personal attack on my credibility, I will respond so you can "look up"
whatever you want to. I get logged every so often on the WUN list and
others, and here are a few excerpts from WUN that you can look up yourself
in the archives:

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:58:50 -0500
Subject: [WUN] Recent SSB Logs from Ohio

12-2-03
5696.0 Coast Guard Auxiliary Oceania Radio 2332 USB wkg
Coast Guard 2109 for flight op's relay to CAMSLANT.
Later assumes radio guard after checking with CAMSLANT.
CAMSLANT at 2335 clg the 2218 and 1706.

Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 10:12 pm
Subject: HF Logs 1 September 04

1348Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO wkg CG 2136 (HU-25, ATC Mobile) for relay to
CAMSLANT regarding 406 EPIRB search

30 September 04

8983 Oceana Radio calls CG 2128 (HU-25A) for position report Flight ops
normal talk to you again it 30 mins USB 1950 (30Sept04) (CC)

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: [cothen] HF ALE/Voice 3 October 04

1505Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO taking ops and position report from
CG 2140 for relay to CAMSLANT

To: "WUN"
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:21 AM
Subject: [WUN] CG Oceana

Coast Guard Oceana Radio 8985/ 1519:Z

HF ALE/Voice 5 December 04
2151Z 8983.0 S4A position report to CAMSLANT 24-28N 080-17W.
CAMSLANT has trouble copying and OCEANA RADIO takes report for relay
to CAMSLANT

Tue Aug 3 21:17:02 EDT 2004
0156Z 5696.0 CG 2140 (HU-25) airborne with 5 POB from New Jersey
en route Cape Cod establishes guard with OCEANA RADIO

Date: 3\23\05
8983 CG2121 rep flt-ops normal to CAMSLANT at 2123, at 2133 CG2121 req
CAMSLANT secure guard.
OCEANA RADIO req Q8V report destination, mission & POB at 2158

Those are just a sampling that I noticed getting logged by UTE hobbyists.

For safety of life issues during working MAYDAY cases on 2182 Khz, I have
posted information to enable certain hobbyists to follow the traffic, in the
hopes that if communications were lost, as can happen on SAR cases,
listening stations would be able to provide assistance via telephone to
their nearest USCG Group.

Jack Painter
Communications Officer
USCG Auxiliary Fifth District Division 5
Port of Hampton Roads, Virginia 757-464-1007
Auxiliary Liaison Officer to USCG CAMSLANT CHESAPEAKE
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground0.htm
Lightning Protection website for USCG OCEANA RADIO

Jack Painter wrote:

"dxAce" wrote
But I'm still waiting for the fellow who supposedly has a Coast Guard
setup in
his home to say something on 8983!

By the way... I checked it out (months ago) ... and as far as I can
determine
they've never heard of him. But perhaps he might provide something a bit
more
definitive.

Ace, we once had pleasant conversations, and I enjoyed talking with you
then. Too bad you have now degenerated through no provocation from me into
someone I don't know, and don't want to know either. But since you made a
personal attack on my credibility, I will respond so you can "look up"
whatever you want to. I get logged every so often on the WUN list and
others, and here are a few excerpts from WUN that you can look up yourself
in the archives:

You can be a 'poseur' all you want, John... I asked you several times today to
come up on the freq. for a simple test count...

You refused... Good enough for me.

dxAce
Michigan
USA



Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:58:50 -0500
Subject: [WUN] Recent SSB Logs from Ohio

12-2-03
5696.0 Coast Guard Auxiliary Oceania Radio 2332 USB wkg
Coast Guard 2109 for flight op's relay to CAMSLANT.
Later assumes radio guard after checking with CAMSLANT.
CAMSLANT at 2335 clg the 2218 and 1706.

Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 10:12 pm
Subject: HF Logs 1 September 04

1348Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO wkg CG 2136 (HU-25, ATC Mobile) for relay to
CAMSLANT regarding 406 EPIRB search

30 September 04

8983 Oceana Radio calls CG 2128 (HU-25A) for position report Flight ops
normal talk to you again it 30 mins USB 1950 (30Sept04) (CC)

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: [cothen] HF ALE/Voice 3 October 04

1505Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO taking ops and position report from
CG 2140 for relay to CAMSLANT

To: "WUN"
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:21 AM
Subject: [WUN] CG Oceana

Coast Guard Oceana Radio 8985/ 1519:Z

HF ALE/Voice 5 December 04
2151Z 8983.0 S4A position report to CAMSLANT 24-28N 080-17W.
CAMSLANT has trouble copying and OCEANA RADIO takes report for relay
to CAMSLANT

Tue Aug 3 21:17:02 EDT 2004
0156Z 5696.0 CG 2140 (HU-25) airborne with 5 POB from New Jersey
en route Cape Cod establishes guard with OCEANA RADIO

Date: 3\23\05
8983 CG2121 rep flt-ops normal to CAMSLANT at 2123, at 2133 CG2121 req
CAMSLANT secure guard.
OCEANA RADIO req Q8V report destination, mission & POB at 2158

Those are just a sampling that I noticed getting logged by UTE hobbyists.

For safety of life issues during working MAYDAY cases on 2182 Khz, I have
posted information to enable certain hobbyists to follow the traffic, in the
hopes that if communications were lost, as can happen on SAR cases,
listening stations would be able to provide assistance via telephone to
their nearest USCG Group.

Jack Painter
Communications Officer
USCG Auxiliary Fifth District Division 5
Port of Hampton Roads, Virginia 757-464-1007
Auxiliary Liaison Officer to USCG CAMSLANT CHESAPEAKE
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground0.htm
Lightning Protection website for USCG OCEANA RADIO

"§ Dr. Artaud §" wrote

Remember, I was the one asking for advice, ergo I am the one ignorant on
the issue. Although I do appreciate any serious response, I especially
appreciated his (Jack Painter's) willingness to have spent so much time
writing a response. As I asked for links, I believed that I would be able
to sort through the responses and make a decision for myself.

To compound the matter, I spent the day looking at vertical antennas for
HF transmitting, something that I am not yet licensed to do (Technician).
Anyway, my property is narrow, I live next door to a borough official
that doesn't like me (understatement, and the feeling is mutual), my
property suffers absolutely tremendous winds during some (most) of the
summer storms (you have to see it to believe it, the rear of the house
looks like pre-tornado, the front, mostly calm wind wise, but there is
not enough front to use for mounting antennas and the high tension and
other wires are but a mere 20 feet away).

I am not going to be able to erect a tower and use a beam (wife's
prohibition), the property doesn't lend itself to traipsing guy wires to
support a vertical in high winds, and my wife isn't going to let me have
guy wires stuck hither and thither anyway (I need a free standing
vertical with 80 mph wind resistance).

I thought that the inverted V might be a start, I realize that I can
transmit on it as well (utilizing a tuner). All I have now is a random
wire down one side of the property, attached by rubber tubing (of a sort)
to a large tree near the end of my property, the other end going directly
to my radio.

The inverted V was just a way to allow me a more convenient way to use
coax for the radio to antenna feed, and to use some form of grounding at
the point where the coax enters the house (though as I said, I can't run
a ground wire straight down, as the patio is directly below).

You comments are appreciated, perhaps you can also help me with the
vertical. But I do need a way to ground my antenna soon, as the storms
will soon be here.

Thanks.

Dr. Artaud

You're very welcome, Dr. We share what we have worked and learn what best
fits our individual circumstances in such exchanges. You might enjoy the
features that an automatic tuner such as MFJ produces. They perform well in
most cases except at the actual frequencies a dipole is cut for, as the
impedance at that one place only is felt as almost infitinte to them. Of
course that's one frequency they aren't needed either, just be advised it
could result in erratic behavior of the ATU if used on the resonant
frequency.

Station-Isolation is probably more feasible when you first get started with
a transmitter, receiver and rooftop or other high antenna system. They can
and certainly should be grounded, but until you can plan and design a
whole-property system, it's perhaps safer to isolate by unplugging power
supplies when not in use, and disconnect coax feedlines from the equipment
as well. Having an accessible place to ground those disconnected antenna
feedlines is best, and that can be inside your station as long as no
equipment comes within at least one foot of that ground system and coax when
they are shorted to ground.

Please don't handle coax connectors during the thunderstorm - if you forgot
to disconnect, say a prayer for your equipment, and spare needing one for
yourself! ;-)

As you shop for verticals, consider that a good radial system can be layed
out, totally concealed on a permanent basis, and then a temporary field-day
style of vertical "tipped up" for your work, and put away when you secure.
Maybe leave it up during nice weekends, as the household gets used to it a
little at a time, LOL. Lots of options are possible for the nice property
you described. Neighbors won't object as long as you aren't changing their
tv channels when you transmit.

Keep us posted on your progress, and good luck.

Best regards,

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack Painter wrote:

"dxAce" wrote
But I'm still waiting for the fellow who supposedly has a Coast Guard
setup in
his home to say something on 8983!

By the way... I checked it out (months ago) ... and as far as I can
determine
they've never heard of him. But perhaps he might provide something a bit
more
definitive.

Ace, we once had pleasant conversations, and I enjoyed talking with you
then. Too bad you have now degenerated through no provocation from me into
someone I don't know, and don't want to know either. But since you made a
personal attack on my credibility, I will respond so you can "look up"
whatever you want to. I get logged every so often on the WUN list and
others, and here are a few excerpts from WUN that you can look up yourself
in the archives:

You didn't answer the original query, did you? Please read the above again.



Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:58:50 -0500
Subject: [WUN] Recent SSB Logs from Ohio

12-2-03
5696.0 Coast Guard Auxiliary Oceania Radio 2332 USB wkg
Coast Guard 2109 for flight op's relay to CAMSLANT.
Later assumes radio guard after checking with CAMSLANT.
CAMSLANT at 2335 clg the 2218 and 1706.

Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 10:12 pm
Subject: HF Logs 1 September 04

1348Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO wkg CG 2136 (HU-25, ATC Mobile) for relay to
CAMSLANT regarding 406 EPIRB search

30 September 04

8983 Oceana Radio calls CG 2128 (HU-25A) for position report Flight ops
normal talk to you again it 30 mins USB 1950 (30Sept04) (CC)

Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: [cothen] HF ALE/Voice 3 October 04

1505Z 8983.0 OCEANA RADIO taking ops and position report from
CG 2140 for relay to CAMSLANT

To: "WUN"
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:21 AM
Subject: [WUN] CG Oceana

Coast Guard Oceana Radio 8985/ 1519:Z

HF ALE/Voice 5 December 04
2151Z 8983.0 S4A position report to CAMSLANT 24-28N 080-17W.
CAMSLANT has trouble copying and OCEANA RADIO takes report for relay
to CAMSLANT

Tue Aug 3 21:17:02 EDT 2004
0156Z 5696.0 CG 2140 (HU-25) airborne with 5 POB from New Jersey
en route Cape Cod establishes guard with OCEANA RADIO

Date: 3\23\05
8983 CG2121 rep flt-ops normal to CAMSLANT at 2123, at 2133 CG2121 req
CAMSLANT secure guard.
OCEANA RADIO req Q8V report destination, mission & POB at 2158

Those are just a sampling that I noticed getting logged by UTE hobbyists.

For safety of life issues during working MAYDAY cases on 2182 Khz, I have
posted information to enable certain hobbyists to follow the traffic, in the
hopes that if communications were lost, as can happen on SAR cases,
listening stations would be able to provide assistance via telephone to
their nearest USCG Group.

Jack Painter
Communications Officer
USCG Auxiliary Fifth District Division 5
Port of Hampton Roads, Virginia 757-464-1007
Auxiliary Liaison Officer to USCG CAMSLANT CHESAPEAKE
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground0.htm
Lightning Protection website for USCG OCEANA RADIO

What is WUN and Camslant? Or is that ok to ask about?
cuhulin

wrote
What is WUN and Camslant? Or is that ok to ask about?
cuhulin


Utility listening hobbyist group & website

http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/wun
Join or see archives without subscribing here

http://www.wunclub.com/
Worldwide Utility News club website here

CAMSLANT =
Communications Area Master Station Atlantic


Jack

cuhu wrote:

What is WUN and Camslant? Or is that ok to ask about?
cuhulin
----------------------------
WUN World Utility News
http://www.wunclub.com/
A Godsend to the serious utility listener.

Camslant :
http://www.marinecomputer.com/articl...3/CAMSLANT.htm
US Coast Guard

Terry

Ok Jack,Thanks for the information.I was only curious.I learn something
new everyday.
cuhulin

"Jack Painter" wrote in
news:xLD8e.2235$lz1.1261@lakeread01:

I have been perusing the information on Lightning Protection in the link
that you provided. As a side issue, have you studied CAT III Voltmeter
protection? http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_m...afety_measure/

Also, being too tired to digest much more information, and having saved
the information from your posts, have you ever see this antenna, any
comments that you have would be appreciated?
http://www.universal-radio.com/catal...wire/4075.html

As usual, reading the reviews on EHAM, several were positive, a couple
were absolutely negative. It's an end fed antenna that they represent as
needing a 25 foot central rise. The reviews seem to talk about
counterpoise, though the drawing at the link above seems to be suggesting
that the central pillar is the counterpoise, I would guess that it is a
network of wires needed to be buried. The 2 legs are 55 feet, to the rise
that is, and one of the reviews complained that the actual overall length
was longer than advertised.

"Also they're saying it only takes 88 feet of space is flat out wrong. If
you do simple math it will tell you 97 feet with the 25 foot support. I
put mine up to 30 feet and it takes up 92 feet overall."

Lastly, I would guess that people should not be exposed to the antenna
when transmitting.

Alas this would still put me back into the need of a vertical antenna for
transmitting with sufficient rise above the yard for safety.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1550

Nevertheless, I am still seeking to improve my receiving antenna for SWL
with the addition of lightning protection.

Thanks again,

Dr. Artaud