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ground and antenna thoughts
Since the fun flame feast we had over lightening
protection, I thought it might be very usefull to newbies to make some points clearer then I think is common. First I don't care if anyone choses to pay the slightest bit of attention to what I say. I am only trying to pass on the help that I received from others in the past. Forget about protecting your radio and electronics. Think instead about keeping your home from burning down, or killing yourself, and your family. Lightning fires can spread as if an accelerant was used. Think about what trouble you might face if your installation was "illegal", found to violate the local or state electrical code and your insurance company may be able to refuse to pay. Refuse to pay anything. I won't bother posting links to the National Electrical Code, they are simple to find. You might want to your insurance agent, or read your insurance policy. Call your local fire department or building inspector and find out who handles electrical inspections. Call them from a payphone if you fear bringing down the harpies of code enforcement upon yourself. And ask what the rules are. Copies should be availble for public inpsection at the planing and zoning commision and/or the local library. All I can say is that in my location, there are strict rules requiring adherence to the NEC. And my insurance has a clause that clearly states that non compliant or non apporoved modifications, additions, "may result in denial of your claim". Yea and the sun might come up Friday. Any takers of a bet that they would pay? The fire marshal told me that if a non conforming installation caused a fire that caused injury or death WOULD face prosecution. Period. No exceptions. That ALL of these prosecutions have resulted in convictions. So at the very least, meet the requirements of the law. I have had two direct hits, the first vaporised the top 2' of my 108" 10mtr whip, the second vaporised my 70' #14 hard drawn antenna, the 9:1 matching tranformer, and blew the metal case to dime sized pieces, and blew holes in my burried coax. It also deprogramed most programable devices in the house, and the rear motion sensor failed. The failure might not have been related as the PIR was ~15 years old. None of my radios, PC or HiFi/TV had any damage (other then requiring BIOS resets, scanner/radio memories reprogramed and the like) I am not saying that you can save your radios,or even save your home. If one of the killer bolts that appear to be so common in FL manage to hit your home, all may be lost. As bad and sad as that would be, it would be worse to face the loss of your home insurance, a fine, and possible trial and going to jail. When I got my first SW my dad insisted that we "put up the antenna correctly, and install a "lightning protector". He went on to warn me that the protector might save the house but the radio would be ruined. And I had to disconnect my antenna anytime I wasn't listening, and to never ever listen during storms. He took the next day off, an unheard of event, the only other time I can remember him taking off was for my sister's birth, and we went to the local radio/tv parts house and bought 100' of "antenna wire" with dog bone insulators. When I married and moved from my parents home, we carefully took the antenna down. It was the antenna that got hit where I we now live. I still have the a 6" piece with the melted blob of copper that I keep on the wall below my first SW QSL card to remind of the joys and sorrows of SWL. My HF receivng antenna is at varaince withthe NEC. The electrical inspector wrote me anice letter that my departure fromt he NEC did not create any additonal risk. I also have a ltter frmo my insurance company, not the local agent, but hte home office sttaing my varience is accepted as long as "woire that enter your home are bonded as required by the NEC." A little extra effort to be sure, but well worth it. If we get nailed tonight and manage to get out alive, I will have teh cold comfort of knowing that I have not only done all I could, but htat I will face no legal of inusarnce problems. Flame me all you want, but if I can motovate one person to take the proper steps to prevent lossing their house, life or freedom I will feel good. Terry |
My HF receivng antenna is at varaince withthe NEC. The electrical inspector wrote me anice letter that my departure fromt he NEC did not create any additonal risk. I also have a ltter frmo my insurance company, not the local agent, but hte home office sttaing my varience is accepted as long as "woire that enter your home are bonded as required by the NEC." A little extra effort to be sure, but well worth it. If we get nailed tonight and manage to get out alive, I will have teh cold comfort of knowing that I have not only done all I could, but htat I will face no legal of inusarnce problems. I'd keep those letters in a safe deposit box, or at least at a different location from your home, in case the worst does happen and you need proof. |
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FDR wrote: "Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ... wrote: I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. I'd have to concur. Unless you were so criminally negligent and put others at risk, such as tenants, I see no reason you'd be prosecuted. Also, insurance would pay your claim but then drop you. And some won't pay... not necessarily for a lightening strike but for an auto accident. A word to the wise.. don't insure with AAA. Trust me. dxAce Michigan USA |
"dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ... wrote: I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. I'd have to concur. Unless you were so criminally negligent and put others at risk, such as tenants, I see no reason you'd be prosecuted. Also, insurance would pay your claim but then drop you. And some won't pay... not necessarily for a lightening strike but for an auto accident. A word to the wise.. don't insure with AAA. Trust me. My sympathies. dxAce Michigan USA |
FDR wrote: "dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ... wrote: I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. I'd have to concur. Unless you were so criminally negligent and put others at risk, such as tenants, I see no reason you'd be prosecuted. Also, insurance would pay your claim but then drop you. And some won't pay... not necessarily for a lightening strike but for an auto accident. A word to the wise.. don't insure with AAA. Trust me. My sympathies. I actually appreciate that as it's been a real pain in the neck (no pun intended) for the last (almost two years). But what the heck, it'll only take about $30,000 to fix. dxAce Michigan USA |
Mark S. Holden wrote:
wrote: Since the fun flame feast we had over lightening protection, I thought it might be very usefull to newbies to make some points clearer then I think is common. First I don't care if anyone choses to pay the slightest bit of attention to what I say. I am only trying to pass on the help that I received from others in the past. Forget about protecting your radio and electronics. Think instead about keeping your home from burning down, or killing yourself, and your family. Lightning fires can spread as if an accelerant was used. Think about what trouble you might face if your installation was "illegal", found to violate the local or state electrical code and your insurance company may be able to refuse to pay. Refuse to pay anything. I won't bother posting links to the National Electrical Code, they are simple to find. You might want to your insurance agent, or read your insurance policy. Call your local fire department or building inspector and find out who handles electrical inspections. Call them from a payphone if you fear bringing down the harpies of code enforcement upon yourself. And ask what the rules are. Copies should be availble for public inpsection at the planing and zoning commision and/or the local library. All I can say is that in my location, there are strict rules requiring adherence to the NEC. And my insurance has a clause that clearly states that non compliant or non apporoved modifications, additions, "may result in denial of your claim". Yea and the sun might come up Friday. Any takers of a bet that they would pay? The fire marshal told me that if a non conforming installation caused a fire that caused injury or death WOULD face prosecution. Period. No exceptions. That ALL of these prosecutions have resulted in convictions. So at the very least, meet the requirements of the law. I have had two direct hits, the first vaporised the top 2' of my 108" 10mtr whip, the second vaporised my 70' #14 hard drawn antenna, the 9:1 matching tranformer, and blew the metal case to dime sized pieces, and blew holes in my burried coax. It also deprogramed most programable devices in the house, and the rear motion sensor failed. The failure might not have been related as the PIR was ~15 years old. None of my radios, PC or HiFi/TV had any damage (other then requiring BIOS resets, scanner/radio memories reprogramed and the like) I am not saying that you can save your radios,or even save your home. If one of the killer bolts that appear to be so common in FL manage to hit your home, all may be lost. As bad and sad as that would be, it would be worse to face the loss of your home insurance, a fine, and possible trial and going to jail. When I got my first SW my dad insisted that we "put up the antenna correctly, and install a "lightning protector". He went on to warn me that the protector might save the house but the radio would be ruined. And I had to disconnect my antenna anytime I wasn't listening, and to never ever listen during storms. He took the next day off, an unheard of event, the only other time I can remember him taking off was for my sister's birth, and we went to the local radio/tv parts house and bought 100' of "antenna wire" with dog bone insulators. When I married and moved from my parents home, we carefully took the antenna down. It was the antenna that got hit where I we now live. I still have the a 6" piece with the melted blob of copper that I keep on the wall below my first SW QSL card to remind of the joys and sorrows of SWL. My HF receivng antenna is at varaince withthe NEC. The electrical inspector wrote me anice letter that my departure fromt he NEC did not create any additonal risk. I also have a ltter frmo my insurance company, not the local agent, but hte home office sttaing my varience is accepted as long as "woire that enter your home are bonded as required by the NEC." A little extra effort to be sure, but well worth it. If we get nailed tonight and manage to get out alive, I will have teh cold comfort of knowing that I have not only done all I could, but htat I will face no legal of inusarnce problems. Flame me all you want, but if I can motovate one person to take the proper steps to prevent lossing their house, life or freedom I will feel good. Terry I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. Theoretically, it COULD happen, if the DA was in a bad mood or something or they needed to make an example out of you. I think it would be more likely that your insurance company would find some way to weasel out of paying for the damage. Ever since insurers lost a bundle of cash speculating on tech stocks they've been finding creative ways to cancel policies, or not pay claims. They've been saying that labrador retrievers look like rottweilers, therefore you have a dangerous dog and that's an unacceptable risk. I figure that if your house burned down because your antenna was hit, they'd say that the antenna was technically illegal, therefore the damage is not covered. That may be true, but I doubt that you'd be thrown in jail for it, unless your entire family died and some bloviating politician wants to make an example out of you for whatever reason. I also don't think that lightning fires spread "as if there was an accelerant". My grandfather once lived in a rural area where the power poles didn't have grounds. When lightning hit the pole, foot long flames came out of the sockets. It ruined everything electrical, and he had to rewire his house several times, but it didn't burn down. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
"Mark S. Holden" wrote:
I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. ------------------------- Here in central KY a good frined installed a CNB and din't ground the mast/antenna. He got luck and a strike set his den on fire. About $5K. Whne the adjuster came, he saw the remains of the antenna and looded for a groundrod. Finding none, he asked my frined who replied witht he truth. The claims was rejected, his policy canceled and the electricla inspector came around that evening and gave him a citation. He spent the next week talking to lawyers, and when it came out that he had't grounded the mast per regs, they told him he was screwed. So he got to pay for the repair, and go to court where he was fined $500 being a first time offender. In a isimalr case 6 or 7 years ago, a guy put a TV antenna on his roof. With no ground wire. During a T-storm he got lucky. Set the house on fire and inspite of the heavy rain it was a complete loss. His wife died and the DA was going to press charges. The gent died the day before the Grand Jury. I have a cousin who is a lawyer, I know, I hang my had in shame as I admit this in public, and I asked her about it at the time. She was of the opinon that not only would he be indicted, but that he would be convicted. This was before he got extra lucky and died. Maybe the planing and zoning nannies are sane in your neck of the woods, but around here they are petty nazis. If they catch you doing "substantial" work without a permit, you're screwed. If they find you installed your own electric water heater, you get a nasty fine, if it is a gas water heater, you are really F$#%^. People have gone to jail. If it is your rental property, you are in real trouble. You can avoid this by having a licensed electrician or plumber "aprove" your work. They even go around to al the home centers and get records of everyone who buys a water heaters. They find a lot of Mr. Smiths and Jones who paid with cash. There was a reading of a bill that required stores to gather legal IDs but it died in commite. I am lucky because I have a plumber and an electrician for friends and can get them to sign off on my work. But around here the government is so determined to protect us they won't let a little thing like reason or common sense to intrude on their grand plans. I don't worry too much about the new world order because it is here in central KY. When I retire we are going to move out of this over protected locale....Hell they even banned smokining restruaunts. And I don't even smoke and didn't frequent places that catered to smokers. Personal freedom and liberty? Not aroundhere. And I posed a worst case view. I have had two major hits that destroyed myantennas and did no damage to my radio gear. I am glad I don't live in FL where the lightening strikes must be killer. I mean if MW stations get destroyed with the frequency stated in the lightening protection thread, it must be nasty down there. I aksed the engineerng staff of several local MW outlets and none of them have had damage in over 20 years. And one TV station was damaged by multiple strikes on the power/telco systems. They lost a lot of PCs telecom gear etc, but their production and transmission system came through unscathed. Had to use cell phones for a couple of days. But like I said, my post assumed a worst case conditino, one where the bolts are so large that protection is doomed to fail. In such a case, the very least a ham/CBer/SWL should do is to meet the local codes. Looking at the cable and DBS isntalls I have seen all over the state, that level isn't all that hard or expensive. Run coax into "static" block, run (too thin) ground wire to (sub standard)ground rod. Terry |
running dogg demonstrates why these pictures of the 'primary
protection' system require inspection: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised. But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing. To transport electricity back to the defective transformer, the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house exploded. Many say lights work just fine. Therefore, don't worry. Be happy. Even the military calls for inspections of these grounding connections every 5 years or sooner. A homeowner must take responsibility for his ground connections. The consequences sometimes can be catastrophic as demonstrated by multiple examples. running dogg wrote: ... My grandfather once lived in a rural area where the power poles didn't have grounds. When lightning hit the pole, foot long flames came out of the sockets. It ruined everything electrical, and he had to rewire his house several times, but it didn't burn down. |
"dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ... wrote: I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. I'd have to concur. Unless you were so criminally negligent and put others at risk, such as tenants, I see no reason you'd be prosecuted. Also, insurance would pay your claim but then drop you. And some won't pay... not necessarily for a lightening strike but for an auto accident. A word to the wise.. don't insure with AAA. Trust me. My sympathies. I actually appreciate that as it's been a real pain in the neck (no pun intended) for the last (almost two years). But what the heck, it'll only take about $30,000 to fix. Best of luck with that. Sincerely. dxAce Michigan USA |
"w_tom" wrote in message ... running dogg demonstrates why these pictures of the 'primary protection' system require inspection: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised. But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing. To transport electricity back to the defective transformer, the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house exploded. If that doesn't souind like an urban myth.... Many say lights work just fine. Therefore, don't worry. Be happy. Even the military calls for inspections of these grounding connections every 5 years or sooner. A homeowner must take responsibility for his ground connections. The consequences sometimes can be catastrophic as demonstrated by multiple examples. running dogg wrote: ... My grandfather once lived in a rural area where the power poles didn't have grounds. When lightning hit the pole, foot long flames came out of the sockets. It ruined everything electrical, and he had to rewire his house several times, but it didn't burn down. |
FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message ... running dogg demonstrates why these pictures of the 'primary protection' system require inspection: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised. But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing. To transport electricity back to the defective transformer, the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house exploded. If that doesn't souind like an urban myth.... Yeah, it does to me too. I doubt that electricity would be transported back to a transformer via natural gas line. Natural gas is awfully volatile. Also, if the neutral wire INSIDE one of those huge oil filled transformers up on a pole failed, how would the homeowner know, much less act? I suppose that an arcing transformer would cause horrible SW interference (not sure about MW) but most people don't have SW radios. In that case only a local SWL or ham would notice. All new construction around here requires 400 amp household grounds built into the foundation. Typically the special ground rod is simply stuck into the concrete. I think it should be actually buried in the earth, but apparently that's not necessary. Fortunately lightning storms are rare here, and when they DO happen they're rarely on the scale seen in Florida. (I never understood why people think Florida is paradise; they have some NASTY weather there and some really, really bad urban ghettoes.) ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
FDR wrote:
I actually appreciate that as it's been a real pain in the neck (no pun intended) for the last (almost two years). But what the heck, it'll only take about $30,000 to fix. Best of luck with that. Sincerely. yeah..those pesky soft tissue injuries. The Ace just admitted that money will cure his ills. That would be a miracle indeed. If it were ANYONE else other than the Ace himself, I'd say it was a fraud attempt. mike |
FDR wrote: "dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "dxAce" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ... wrote: I think being careful is a good idea, but you're remarkably pessimistic. Last year one of my antennas took a direct hit. Everything in front of the polyphaser was destroyed. Everything in back of it was fine. I'm sure a strike could have done more damage - but it's not hopeless. In my case, a strike would need to follow over 300 feet of underground coax to get to the house. Reading your house insurance policy contract is a good idea, in case there is something in there. There are differences, but even though they're insured with different companies in different states, the insurance contracts I've read for homes in CT, FL and NJ look to be based on the same boiler plate form. Insurance companies aren't likely to deny a claim if you can show you made even a minimal good faith effort to have a safe system. The courts would rule against them unless they could point to a specific provision in your policy allowing them to deny coverage. The company sets the terms of the contract, so anything in doubt will be decided in your favor. On the other hand, if an insurance company inspected your house and saw an antenna they might decide they don't want to insure you - but they'd need to give you time to correct the problem - and you'd have some time to try reasoning with them if you really have made (or are willing to make) an effort to make sure the system is safe. But frankly, I doubt antennas are on their minds. A friend with a serious antenna farm got a letter threatening to drop him if he didn't put a second railing on his back steps. Hard to imagine they could see the steps without noticing the antennas. Your concern someone could be tossed in jail for an unintentional building code violation is incredible. I'd have to concur. Unless you were so criminally negligent and put others at risk, such as tenants, I see no reason you'd be prosecuted. Also, insurance would pay your claim but then drop you. And some won't pay... not necessarily for a lightening strike but for an auto accident. A word to the wise.. don't insure with AAA. Trust me. My sympathies. I actually appreciate that as it's been a real pain in the neck (no pun intended) for the last (almost two years). But what the heck, it'll only take about $30,000 to fix. Best of luck with that. Sincerely. TNX dxAce Michigan USA |
m II wrote: FDR wrote: I actually appreciate that as it's been a real pain in the neck (no pun intended) for the last (almost two years). But what the heck, it'll only take about $30,000 to fix. Best of luck with that. Sincerely. yeah..those pesky soft tissue injuries. The Ace just admitted that money will cure his ills. That would be a miracle indeed. If it were ANYONE else other than the Ace himself, I'd say it was a fraud attempt. Soft tissue? Actually it's a bone injury. You ever had a boner? Ah... probably not, you're a Canuck. dxAce Michigan USA |
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The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen." moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why' buildings and utilities are earthed. Another event created by a missing earth ground was continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The offending home was not properly earthed. That house used other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow that wire behind walls with infrared goggles. Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science reasoning. Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide transistor safety. FDR wrote: "w_tom" wrote in message ... A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised. But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing. To transport electricity back to the defective transformer, the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house exploded. If that doesn't souind like an urban myth.... |
w_tom wrote: The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen." moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why' buildings and utilities are earthed. Another event created by a missing earth ground was continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The offending home was not properly earthed. That house used other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow that wire behind walls with infrared goggles. Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science reasoning. Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide transistor safety. Suddenly we're worried about transistor safety? dxAce Michigan USA |
"w_tom" wrote in message ... The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen." moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why' buildings and utilities are earthed. I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house. Another event created by a missing earth ground was continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The offending home was not properly earthed. That house used other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow that wire behind walls with infrared goggles. Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science reasoning. Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide transistor safety. FDR wrote: "w_tom" wrote in message ... A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised. But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing. To transport electricity back to the defective transformer, the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house exploded. If that doesn't souind like an urban myth.... |
FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message ... The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen." moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why' buildings and utilities are earthed. I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house. Only if all the devices are one a single phase. With an open neutral there is still 240 volts available at the structure. If the load on each phase is relatively balanced, the error may go unnoticed. If an alternate ground path exists for the neutral things may appear normal until it fails. The current in the neutral can be much lower than either of the phases. Craigm |
"FDR" wrote:
I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house. ----------------------------- Sorry but that is not true. 15 years ago the neutral failed at the transformer and our aAC was cycling up dan down smoething wierd. My low voltage alarm tripped, and woke us up. I killed the breakers and called the utility. The other 3 homes had damge to their refridgerator and heat pump compressors. Motors don't like AC that runs from near 0 to well over normal. Terry |
"craigm" wrote in message ... FDR wrote: "w_tom" wrote in message ... The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen." moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why' buildings and utilities are earthed. I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house. Only if all the devices are one a single phase. With an open neutral there is still 240 volts available at the structure. Yep. If the load on each phase is relatively balanced, the error may go unnoticed. First, how likely is that? Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a return path if the neutral is disconnected. I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of the leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term 'broken neutral wire'. If an alternate ground path exists for the neutral things may appear normal until it fails. What alternate path? The wire is broken supposedly so there can never be a return path. The current in the neutral can be much lower than either of the phases. How do you reconcile that with Kirchoff's laws? Craigm |
Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a return
path if the neutral is disconnected. I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of the leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term 'broken neutral wire'. The 120V service in your house is between one of the hot legs of the line from the pole and ground. If you look inside your breaker panel, you'll see that the neutral from the pole, the white "neutrals" from all the branch circuits, and the bare copper or green-jacketed "ground" wires from the branches are all bonded together and to a grounding electrode driven in your yard somewhere. So, assuming there is still power at the hot legs of the service from the pole, there will still be 120V from either leg to ground. It'll just be the ground at the electrode in your yard rather than the ground at the transformer on the pole. |
"Brian Running" wrote in message m... Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a return path if the neutral is disconnected. I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of the leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term 'broken neutral wire'. The 120V service in your house is between one of the hot legs of the line from the pole and ground. If you look inside your breaker panel, you'll see that the neutral from the pole, the white "neutrals" from all the branch circuits, and the bare copper or green-jacketed "ground" wires from the branches are all bonded together and to a grounding electrode driven in your yard somewhere. So, assuming there is still power at the hot legs of the service from the pole, there will still be 120V from either leg to ground. It'll just be the ground at the electrode in your yard rather than the ground at the transformer on the pole. Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a return path. |
Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a
return path. You have a lot of confidence in your position, so I think an experiment is in order, to verify the conclusion. First, go up the power pole and snip the neutral at the transformer. Then, go down in your basement, open up the main panel, put a finger on either one of the hot buses, and then grab a nearby copper or steel water pipe with your other hand. If we don't hear from you again, then we'll conclude that there can indeed be current without the neutral at the transformer. Otherwise, please report your findings. All seriousness aside, if there's power on either of the hot legs, then you don't need a "return path." Even when it's connected properly, the neutral is grounded, anyway, so the "return path" is from hot to ground -- any old ground will work, and that's why it's a potentially dangerous situation. |
"Brian Running" wrote in message m... Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a return path. You have a lot of confidence in your position, so I think an experiment is in order, to verify the conclusion. First, go up the power pole and snip the neutral at the transformer. Then, go down in your basement, open up the main panel, put a finger on either one of the hot buses, and then grab a nearby copper or steel water pipe with your other hand. If we don't hear from you again, then we'll conclude that there can indeed be current without the neutral at the transformer. Otherwise, please report your findings. Ha ha. All seriousness aside, if there's power on either of the hot legs, then you don't need a "return path." Kirchoff would be intrigued by that. Even when it's connected properly, the neutral is grounded, anyway, so the "return path" is from hot to ground -- any old ground will work, and that's why it's a potentially dangerous situation. If what you are trying to say is that the neutral wire was broken, but the neutral to ground connection was still good, then I can get your point. However, saying the neutral is broken is ambiguous. I just don't get how that happens on the line. If the break is internal, as it sounds, then there cannot be a properly grounded transformer. |
FDR wrote:
Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a return path. ----------------------------------------- You really ned to talk to an alectrician. I just asked my electrician friend frind and he siad ti is all too common. OK lets look at it another way. We have a 240V CT transformer. Wiht the CT being neultral/ground. Here we have two wires going from our house to the pole, that join at the pole witht he center tap. We cut the CT open. We now have 240V hitting the breaker box. The old neutral will be somewhere between on side of the 240V and the other. If the loads are balanced, then it is possible, but not real likely that you could have 120V across each side, from either side of the 240V to the centern. I hope you will agree that 240 devices don't need a newtral return. My water heater has the element, a big honking resistor from one side of the 240V to the other. Let's put 1 100 watt light bulb on each side of the 240 transformer in series, with the junction being the house neutral. Now even without connection to the pole center tap/neutral/ ground we will ahve 120V across each bulb from common junction of the bulbs to either side of the transformer. My electrician friend says that around here, most transformer failures are caused by severe imbalance between one side of the 240V split and the other. Around here most transformers have 4 ot 8 homes. If all of those homes have the same imbalance, "BOOM". The transformer fails in a ball of fire. Properly designed installations go to great lengths to match the current per leg or phase. He hates the word phase because too many people confuse the "2 phases" of the common house transformer with the "3 phases" of commercial installs. In the typical house your have one transformer, energised by a single primary and the side of the 240CT are 180 degrees out. In real 3 phase, the phases are 120 degrees out. Draw a diagram of your pole to house circuit. Showing the ~12KV(varies by area) primary, a 240CT transformer, witht eh CT being ground or neutral or both, with the 3 (or 4) wires coming nto your breaker panel. The CT/Neutral/ground forces the sides to be 120 with refference to the CT. Without the CT, then the common, broken neutral, will follow ohms law and form a simple resitive divider. Motoros and non constant loads make it anything but simple, but just visualise each breaker feeding a differnt value resistor. Solve each side for parallel value, place the larger resistance over the lowest and multiply that percentage by the incoming 240V. It almost certainly won't be 120V. And when a motor turns on, it really screws things up. The motor can't draw enough current to get up speed, so it thermals out, and removes it's self from the circuit. Assume that after some arbitary period of time every thermal controlled device, fridges, heat pumps, furnace blowers, are all trying to start and the resulting voltage swings become very complex. This is a good way to ruin motors, blow bulbs and is a "real bad thing." And it happens. |
wrote in message ups.com... FDR wrote: Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a return path. ----------------------------------------- You really ned to talk to an alectrician. I just asked my electrician friend frind and he siad ti is all too common. OK lets look at it another way. We have a 240V CT transformer. Wiht the CT being neultral/ground. Here we have two wires going from our house to the pole, that join at the pole witht he center tap. Actually, three, including neutral. Maybe you are saying it a different way. We cut the CT open. We now have 240V hitting the breaker box. The old neutral will be somewhere between on side of the 240V and the other. If the loads are balanced, then it is possible, but not real likely that you could have 120V across each side, from either side of the 240V to the centern. I hope you will agree that 240 devices don't need a newtral return. I agree with that. My water heater has the element, a big honking resistor from one side of the 240V to the other. Let's put 1 100 watt light bulb on each side of the 240 transformer in series, with the junction being the house neutral. Now even without connection to the pole center tap/neutral/ ground we will ahve 120V across each bulb from common junction of the bulbs to either side of the transformer. I see where you are going with that. I did the math and you are correct. My electrician friend says that around here, most transformer failures are caused by severe imbalance between one side of the 240V split and the other. Around here most transformers have 4 ot 8 homes. If all of those homes have the same imbalance, "BOOM". The transformer fails in a ball of fire. Properly designed installations go to great lengths to match the current per leg or phase. He hates the word phase because too many people confuse the "2 phases" of the common house transformer with the "3 phases" of commercial installs. In the typical house your have one transformer, energised by a single primary and the side of the 240CT are 180 degrees out. In real 3 phase, the phases are 120 degrees out. Yep. Draw a diagram of your pole to house circuit. Showing the ~12KV(varies by area) primary, a 240CT transformer, witht eh CT being ground or neutral or both, with the 3 (or 4) wires coming nto your breaker panel. The CT/Neutral/ground forces the sides to be 120 with refference to the CT. Without the CT, then the common, broken neutral, will follow ohms law and form a simple resitive divider. Motoros and non constant loads make it anything but simple, but just visualise each breaker feeding a differnt value resistor. Solve each side for parallel value, place the larger resistance over the lowest and multiply that percentage by the incoming 240V. It almost certainly won't be 120V. And when a motor turns on, it really screws things up. The motor can't draw enough current to get up speed, so it thermals out, and removes it's self from the circuit. Assume that after some arbitary period of time every thermal controlled device, fridges, heat pumps, furnace blowers, are all trying to start and the resulting voltage swings become very complex. This is a good way to ruin motors, blow bulbs and is a "real bad thing." And it happens. I got it. |
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k... wrote:
That is absolutely the weirdest way I have ever heard of to ceebrate the birth of a child. Especially the dog bones part. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Funny, very funny. He took the next day off, and we went to the local radio/tv parts house and bought 100' of "antenna wire" with "dog bone" insulators. The only other time I can remember him taking off was for the birth of my sister. Terry |
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