More Devil's advocate
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

I am all for keeping the ARRL.
cuhulin

Mike Speed wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

Here's a more complete description of bureaucracy. Max Weber has
probably been one of the most influential users of the word in its
social science sense. He is well-known for his study of
bureaucratization of society; many aspects of modern public
administration go back to him; a classic, hierarchically organized
civil service of the continental type is-if basically
mistakenly-called "Weberian civil service".

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word
before Weber; the Oxford English Dictionary cites usage in several
different years between 1818 and 1860, prior to Weber's birth in 1864.
The term can characterize either governmental or nongovernmental
organizations and comes from the French word bureaucratie, from bureau
"office, desk" and the greek suffix -kratia "power". It was first used
by 18th century French economist Jean Claude Marie Vincent de Gournay
(1712-1759).





I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.




How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.

snip

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word

snip

I'll take your word for it.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their
budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.


Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.


How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


Does one have to be a member of the ARRL and receive QST to
be "...a fraternity of like minded people..., etc.?" Your example does not
provide a convincing argument for what I asked for.



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Yes, I did. I answered the question by providing an example. Part of the
lobbying efforts of the ARRL *is* to encourage technological innovation
and strongly petitioning the FCC to provide useful lowfer segments is a
perfect example of an area where hams could further the communication
art. If the ARRL could accomplish such a feat, it would be a *very* clear
indication of how strong they are as lobbyists.


Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.


Yes, I've been hearing very similar musings for many years, and yet
here we are.

As far as "greying": I see an integration of new technology with radio -
like hams have always done - EchoLink and the like, if you like that
sort of thing. I've also been hearing new modulation methods on the
bands - DigTRX for one. Then there's microwaves. The sky is the
limit in the microwave segments (and above) - literally.

Mike Speed wrote:
snip

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word

snip

I'll take your word for it.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their
budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.


Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.



How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


Does one have to be a member of the ARRL and receive QST to
be "...a fraternity of like minded people..., etc.?" Your example does not
provide a convincing argument for what I asked for.

Put simply the people who are members of the ARRL share common
interests in amateur radio and enjoy communicating over the radio
waves. For those people the QST magazine is like any other hobbyist
mag a source of information and a way to read what the rest of the
hobby is doing. Pretty simple....



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Yes, I did. I answered the question by providing an example. Part of the
lobbying efforts of the ARRL *is* to encourage technological innovation
and strongly petitioning the FCC to provide useful lowfer segments is a
perfect example of an area where hams could further the communication
art. If the ARRL could accomplish such a feat, it would be a *very* clear
indication of how strong they are as lobbyists.

That's small potatoes compared to what they should be doing. Which is
to work with the federal regulator to establish meaningful tests and
find ways to attract new blood into the hobby.


Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues. The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings. If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.


As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.


Yes, I've been hearing very similar musings for many years, and yet
here we are.

Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


As far as "greying": I see an integration of new technology with radio -
like hams have always done - EchoLink and the like, if you like that
sort of thing. I've also been hearing new modulation methods on the
bands - DigTRX for one. Then there's microwaves. The sky is the
limit in the microwave segments (and above) - literally.

Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges. Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.

John S. wrote:
Mike Speed wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

Here's a more complete description of bureaucracy. Max Weber has
probably been one of the most influential users of the word in its
social science sense. He is well-known for his study of
bureaucratization of society; many aspects of modern public
administration go back to him; a classic, hierarchically organized
civil service of the continental type is-if basically
mistakenly-called "Weberian civil service".

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word
before Weber; the Oxford English Dictionary cites usage in several
different years between 1818 and 1860, prior to Weber's birth in 1864.
The term can characterize either governmental or nongovernmental
organizations and comes from the French word bureaucratie, from bureau
"office, desk" and the greek suffix -kratia "power". It was first used
by 18th century French economist Jean Claude Marie Vincent de Gournay
(1712-1759).





I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


break

Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.

Enron auditors also gave em a clean bill of health






How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

break
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.

But the ARRL is by and large not composed of Like minded folks to me



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

Well, let's look at the last few months:

Reviews of equipment, software, digital communications modes.
Basic theory and experiments for newcomers.
Construction projects - ancient and modern.
Various antenna designs.
Hints for solving problems with the latest commercial equipment.

I don't particulary like the ARRL, would not feel the loss if they went away, and
am not into contests or Ham politics; but I have no trouble finding interesting
stuff in QST.

Dave

Does any one remember " Incentive Licensing"?......I NEVER forgot
that..............


Steve W4SEF

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:45:15 -0600, "Mike Speed" wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.


Why do *you* hope that?

snip


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues.

BPL *is not* a *minor* technical issue - such a statement shows a high
level of ignorance. Have you ever tried to work a station on 432 Mhz
off the moon? I have tried and succeeded. BPL would increase noise
levels tremendously on the weak signal portions of the upper bands. Even
the FCC website acknowledges this. The ARRL is working to lobby
against BPL, but they're doing a very poor job. I know it and other
hams who know what they're talking about tell me the same thing.

The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.

Who says the ARRL wants to retain tests to control access? Is testing
only to determine one's competence in ..."safe and effective radio
operation...?"
When I took the tests, there were questions about electronics, knowing
what classes could operate on which frequencies, permissible unattended
station operation, propagation, much more.



Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


Which retailers are going out of business?

Yes, there have been studies which show the average age is increasing.

*Every* conversation? That's hyperbole.


Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code

Whew! Talk about unleashing a bomb with that statement! That's a huge
can of worms and millions of words have been written about that.

and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges.
Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.


The ARRL and its' members have had *years* to do something - look at the
result - nothing.

Mike Speed wrote:
Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.


Why do *you* hope that?
Because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You appear to have
little understanding of financial statements, audits, etc.


snip


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues.

BPL *is not* a *minor* technical issue - such a statement shows a high
level of ignorance. Have you ever tried to work a station on 432 Mhz
off the moon? I have tried and succeeded. BPL would increase noise
levels tremendously on the weak signal portions of the upper bands. Even
the FCC website acknowledges this. The ARRL is working to lobby
against BPL, but they're doing a very poor job. I know it and other
hams who know what they're talking about tell me the same thing.

You cn worry about BPL 'till the cows come home. It won't make one
whit of difference if the number of active hams continues its steady
decline.


The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

Precedents for what...your question makes no sense.


If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.

Who says the ARRL wants to retain tests to control access? Is testing
only to determine one's competence in ..."safe and effective radio
operation...?"
When I took the tests, there were questions about electronics, knowing
what classes could operate on which frequencies, permissible unattended
station operation, propagation, much more.

The only reason ARRL retains its out of date tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper. And to keep an ever aging group
of members happy because they are requiring the same meaningless morse
code test that the grey hairs took 40 years ago.




Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


Which retailers are going out of business?

They've already gone.

Yes, there have been studies which show the average age is increasing.

*Every* conversation? That's hyperbole.


Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code

Whew! Talk about unleashing a bomb with that statement! That's a huge
can of worms and millions of words have been written about that.

The morse code test is the equivalent of requiring prospective car
drivers to know how to control a horse and buggy. Fact is the 20
somethings have little or no interest in ham radio and all of its
quaint licenses.


and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges.
Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.


The ARRL and its' members have had *years* to do something - look at the
result - nothing.