dxAce wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:


Eric F. Richards wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:



[...]
Instead superserving the one reviewer who had already
endorsed the radio as, 'the best shortwave receiver in the world,'
before the first prototype was built. Also something less than honest.



WHOA, HOLD ON A SEC!

I know you don't like Larry Magne. I frankly don't care why -- we've
covered it repeatedly in email, so I don't think we need to go there
again.

But if you claim he, or any other reviewer, called the Sat 800, quote,
"the best shortwave receiver in the world," unquote, you'd better be
able to back that up, chapter, verse, publication, page, etc.

That's way the hell over the line, Peter.



I'll refer you to any SAT 800 direct mail piece, the preview
commentary by Grove and any of the numerous ads for SAT 800 during the
first couple of years of release. It's been published vitually
continuously. And discussed here to death. It's also in virtually any
e-Bay listing straight from the Lextronix presentation materials offered
to 'officially authorized retailers.'

If you want page numbers, I'm sorry. I read the comments, laughed out
loud and dismissed them. I didn't catalog them. Maybe I should start
doing that, this being USENet, and all.

Perhaps someone here has a SAT 800 direct mail piece they can scan
for you. Particularly the one where SAT 800 is claimed to be German
radio would be fun.


Might it be in back issues of Passport? I have various editions here I could
check.

Likely. I don't have any here. I stopped subscribing to ****port
when Magne endorsed SAT 800 for it's performance before the first
prototype had been built.







dxAce
Michigan
USA

D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


[...]
Instead superserving the one reviewer who had already
endorsed the radio as, 'the best shortwave receiver in the world,'
before the first prototype was built. Also something less than honest.



WHOA, HOLD ON A SEC!

I know you don't like Larry Magne. I frankly don't care why -- we've
covered it repeatedly in email, so I don't think we need to go there
again.

But if you claim he, or any other reviewer, called the Sat 800, quote,
"the best shortwave receiver in the world," unquote, you'd better be
able to back that up, chapter, verse, publication, page, etc.

That's way the hell over the line, Peter.



I'll refer you to any SAT 800 direct mail piece,

That's not a review. That's a direct mail piece.

the preview
commentary by Grove

Grove isn't Magne. Magne isn't Grove. And I know from personal
experience that Grove will defend himself.

and any of the numerous ads for SAT 800

That's not a review. That's an ad.

during the
first couple of years of release. It's been published vitually
continuously.

Then, why can't *I*, certainly no fan of the 800, find it?

And discussed here to death. It's also in virtually any
e-Bay listing straight from the Lextronix presentation materials offered
to 'officially authorized retailers.'

If you want page numbers, I'm sorry. I read the comments, laughed out
loud and dismissed them. I didn't catalog them. Maybe I should start
doing that, this being USENet, and all.

Perhaps someone here has a SAT 800 direct mail piece they can scan
for you. Particularly the one where SAT 800 is claimed to be German
radio would be fun.

Direct mail pieces aren't reviews.

Here, maybe I can help you out a little:

Passport, 2000, page 126-127:

"We tested a pre-production prototype, so our observations our
provisional and WE HAVEN'T RATED THIS NEW RECEIVER--tempted though we
are by its CONSIDERABLE PROMISE." (emphasis mine)

"Its performance looks EXCEPTIONALLY PROMISING..." (emphasis mine)

There is no phrase there saying, "the best shortwave receiver in the
world." None. Nada.

Passport 2001, pp 127-135:

4 stars. Not even an implication of "the best shortwave receiver in
the world."

One full page of "Pro," one full page of "Con." In the "Verdict"
section, it says, "But all is not kudos. Construction consistency was
wanting during the 'shakedown cruise,' with perhaps eight percent of
units being returned to dealers for one reason or another."

In the "Evaluation of new model" section, 5 pages, the review cites
the R8B as doing "virtually everything well."

In the "Bottom Line" section it does say, "it outperforms any PORTABLE
OR PC-CONTROLLED RECEIVER WE HAVE TESTED," (emphasis mine), which is
still a long way from implying or stating "the best shortwave receiver
in the world."

At the end of the review, it states: "The Passport portatop review
team includes Lawrence Magne, Tony Jones, Craig Tycon and George
Zeller, with Avery Comarow, George Heidelman and John Wagner.
Laboratory measurements by Robert Sherwood."

So, doubtless out there somewhere, in a parallel universe, there is a
Passport review stating it is "the best shortwave receiver in the
world," and the generally positive comments about its lab performance
were forced at gunpoint from Robert Sherwood, and the rest of the
review board was told to stuff it or forget the $500 pay check they
were getting this year, right?

You claimed that is a direct quote from a reviewer. Back it up. If
you have an ad saying that some reviewer said it, prove it. If you
have a review saying that some reviewer said it, prove it. Some
nebulous comment about "some flier" or an eBay seller won't cut it.


--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


Eric F. Richards wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:



[...]
Instead superserving the one reviewer who had already
endorsed the radio as, 'the best shortwave receiver in the world,'
before the first prototype was built. Also something less than honest.



WHOA, HOLD ON A SEC!

I know you don't like Larry Magne. I frankly don't care why -- we've
covered it repeatedly in email, so I don't think we need to go there
again.

But if you claim he, or any other reviewer, called the Sat 800, quote,
"the best shortwave receiver in the world," unquote, you'd better be
able to back that up, chapter, verse, publication, page, etc.

That's way the hell over the line, Peter.



I'll refer you to any SAT 800 direct mail piece,


That's not a review. That's a direct mail piece.



Yes, that's true. In which Magne was quoted as above.




the preview
commentary by Grove


Grove isn't Magne. Magne isn't Grove. And I know from personal
experience that Grove will defend himself.



Yes, he will. And he has. But that's not the point...the point was at
the introductory press photo op, in which representatives of Tecsun,
Lextronix and Mr Grove, Magne was present and made his endorsement.
There had only been a mockup produced at that time.


I believe that event was reported in Grove's newsletter.





and any of the numerous ads for SAT 800


That's not a review. That's an ad.


I didn't say it came from a review. I said it came from a reviewer.
Larry Magne was quoted. Magne is a reviewer. He made the statement. It
was printed, quoted in SAT 800 materials. But nowhere did I say that it
was stated in a review.




during the
first couple of years of release. It's been published vitually
continuously.


Then, why can't *I*, certainly no fan of the 800, find it?


That's a good question. Perhaps you're looking in reviews. It's not
in a review. But, I got so tired of reading it I packaged everything up
and sent it postage due to Lextronix and asked them to stop sending me
****.





And discussed here to death. It's also in virtually any
e-Bay listing straight from the Lextronix presentation materials offered
to 'officially authorized retailers.'

If you want page numbers, I'm sorry. I read the comments, laughed out
loud and dismissed them. I didn't catalog them. Maybe I should start
doing that, this being USENet, and all.

Perhaps someone here has a SAT 800 direct mail piece they can scan
for you. Particularly the one where SAT 800 is claimed to be German
radio would be fun.


Direct mail pieces aren't reviews.

Here, maybe I can help you out a little:

Passport, 2000, page 126-127:

"We tested a pre-production prototype, so our observations our
provisional and WE HAVEN'T RATED THIS NEW RECEIVER--tempted though we
are by its CONSIDERABLE PROMISE." (emphasis mine)

"Its performance looks EXCEPTIONALLY PROMISING..." (emphasis mine)

There is no phrase there saying, "the best shortwave receiver in the
world." None. Nada.

Passport 2001, pp 127-135:

4 stars. Not even an implication of "the best shortwave receiver in
the world."

One full page of "Pro," one full page of "Con." In the "Verdict"
section, it says, "But all is not kudos. Construction consistency was
wanting during the 'shakedown cruise,' with perhaps eight percent of
units being returned to dealers for one reason or another."

In the "Evaluation of new model" section, 5 pages, the review cites
the R8B as doing "virtually everything well."

In the "Bottom Line" section it does say, "it outperforms any PORTABLE
OR PC-CONTROLLED RECEIVER WE HAVE TESTED," (emphasis mine), which is
still a long way from implying or stating "the best shortwave receiver
in the world."

At the end of the review, it states: "The Passport portatop review
team includes Lawrence Magne, Tony Jones, Craig Tycon and George
Zeller, with Avery Comarow, George Heidelman and John Wagner.
Laboratory measurements by Robert Sherwood."

So, doubtless out there somewhere, in a parallel universe, there is a
Passport review stating it is "the best shortwave receiver in the
world," and the generally positive comments about its lab performance
were forced at gunpoint from Robert Sherwood, and the rest of the
review board was told to stuff it or forget the $500 pay check they
were getting this year, right?



Perhaps you're right, there may be a review in a parallel universe
stating it. But I didn't claim it was from a review.


You claimed that is a direct quote from a reviewer.



I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.

D Peter Maus wrote:


I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.


Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.


--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.



Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.




Ok. If I find an ad I'll scan it for you. Or perhaps someone else has
one at hand.

But it's not like this hasn't been discussed to death before. In a
variety of venues. By a variety of personss. Maghakian was a member of
the Grundig Transistor list when this came up, perhaps Mike can contact
the list holder.

I sent most all the materials I had postage due back to Lextronix.

D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.



Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.




Ok. If I find an ad I'll scan it for you. Or perhaps someone else has
one at hand.

But it's not like this hasn't been discussed to death before. In a
variety of venues. By a variety of personss. Maghakian was a member of
the Grundig Transistor list when this came up, perhaps Mike can contact
the list holder.

I sent most all the materials I had postage due back to Lextronix.


I got a note from Larry explaining what had happened, and something
*similar* to what you say happened, but not *exactly*. I won't quote
it unless he gives me permission to.

Not surprisingly, he's more fair to you than you are to him.

--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


Eric F. Richards wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:



I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.



Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.




Ok. If I find an ad I'll scan it for you. Or perhaps someone else has
one at hand.

But it's not like this hasn't been discussed to death before. In a
variety of venues. By a variety of personss. Maghakian was a member of
the Grundig Transistor list when this came up, perhaps Mike can contact
the list holder.

I sent most all the materials I had postage due back to Lextronix.



I got a note from Larry explaining what had happened, and something
*similar* to what you say happened, but not *exactly*. I won't quote
it unless he gives me permission to.

Not surprisingly, he's more fair to you than you are to him.




But only you would know that.



p

D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


Eric F. Richards wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:



I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.



Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.




Ok. If I find an ad I'll scan it for you. Or perhaps someone else has
one at hand.

But it's not like this hasn't been discussed to death before. In a
variety of venues. By a variety of personss. Maghakian was a member of
the Grundig Transistor list when this came up, perhaps Mike can contact
the list holder.

I sent most all the materials I had postage due back to Lextronix.



I got a note from Larry explaining what had happened, and something
*similar* to what you say happened, but not *exactly*. I won't quote
it unless he gives me permission to.

Not surprisingly, he's more fair to you than you are to him.




But only you would know that.


I think his choice of words makes all the difference in the world. He
granted permission to quote him, so here it is:

[Begin Edited Quote]

First, Mr. Maus is partially correct. In one Passport edition
Grundig's S800 ad had a quote that they attributed to Passport
to World Band Radio. So that part is true. Trouble is, it
wasn't from anything we wrote in Passport or I ever said.
Rather, the quoted statement was from *Grundig's own ad*
written by them and placed in the prior year's Passport.
[...]
We mean what we say each year that Passport Reports has
nothing to do with advertising, and of course that especially
means I stay clear of it. Instead, we have a separate ad
rep who handles this and nothing else (he was once on our
review team, but when he assumed his ad role he left the team),
and the ad with the unfortunate alleged quote didn't catch his
attention. So, we didn't realize what had happened until
the book came off press.

At that time we acted to see that this sort of activity ceased,
and Grundig responded positively. Since then, no Grundig ads
anywhere have mentioned Passport, much less me, in any manner.
Too, our ad maven now reviews ads carefully beforehand to help
avoid a repetition of this sort of misunderstanding.


[End Edited Quote]

Anyway, that's The Story According To Larry.

As for who is treating who fairly, when you start referring to him in
a respectful but disagreeing way ("Mister" Magne vs "****port"), I'll
give you points in fairness on the issue.

You might call my position biased because I'm defending him -- you
might even be right. But I think I've pointed out that I don't agree
with Passport's rating criteria on a number of levels, but their
audience is greater than just me.

You might also note that if I found them as "biased" as you seem to
think they are, I guarantee you, I'd flame their collective asses here
faster than you can say, "Lardass Lloyd Davies."

--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:


Eric F. Richards wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:



Eric F. Richards wrote:


D Peter Maus wrote:




I didn't claim it came from a review. It came from a reviewer. Larry
Magne. And it was quoted liberally in many ads and promotional pieces,
with attribution.



Fine. Then all I ask is that you point me to an ad or promotional
piece, where that quote is made and attributed to Larry Magne.

I'm not letting go of this one -- you made a very strong statement,
and you should be able to back it up.




Ok. If I find an ad I'll scan it for you. Or perhaps someone else has
one at hand.

But it's not like this hasn't been discussed to death before. In a
variety of venues. By a variety of personss. Maghakian was a member of
the Grundig Transistor list when this came up, perhaps Mike can contact
the list holder.

I sent most all the materials I had postage due back to Lextronix.



I got a note from Larry explaining what had happened, and something
*similar* to what you say happened, but not *exactly*. I won't quote
it unless he gives me permission to.

Not surprisingly, he's more fair to you than you are to him.




But only you would know that.



I think his choice of words makes all the difference in the world. He
granted permission to quote him, so here it is:

[Begin Edited Quote]


First, Mr. Maus is partially correct. In one Passport edition
Grundig's S800 ad had a quote that they attributed to Passport
to World Band Radio. So that part is true. Trouble is, it
wasn't from anything we wrote in Passport or I ever said.
Rather, the quoted statement was from *Grundig's own ad*
written by them and placed in the prior year's Passport.

[...]

We mean what we say each year that Passport Reports has
nothing to do with advertising, and of course that especially
means I stay clear of it. Instead, we have a separate ad
rep who handles this and nothing else (he was once on our
review team, but when he assumed his ad role he left the team),
and the ad with the unfortunate alleged quote didn't catch his
attention. So, we didn't realize what had happened until
the book came off press.

At that time we acted to see that this sort of activity ceased,
and Grundig responded positively. Since then, no Grundig ads
anywhere have mentioned Passport, much less me, in any manner.
Too, our ad maven now reviews ads carefully beforehand to help
avoid a repetition of this sort of misunderstanding.



[End Edited Quote]

Anyway, that's The Story According To Larry.

As for who is treating who fairly, when you start referring to him in
a respectful but disagreeing way ("Mister" Magne vs "****port"), I'll
give you points in fairness on the issue.

You might call my position biased because I'm defending him -- you
might even be right. But I think I've pointed out that I don't agree
with Passport's rating criteria on a number of levels, but their
audience is greater than just me.

You might also note that if I found them as "biased" as you seem to
think they are, I guarantee you, I'd flame their collective asses here
faster than you can say, "Lardass Lloyd Davies."



I trust your judgement, and your ability to be fair, so I won't
comment on the 'edited quote' statement. Nor do I care if you're biased,
or not, you've demonstrated an ability to transcend your biases over the
years.


And you'll never hear me say Lardass Lloyd Davies.

I've sent you privately an e-mail of some length. It details my
position.

D Peter Maus wrote:



I trust your judgement, and your ability to be fair, so I won't
comment on the 'edited quote' statement. Nor do I care if you're biased,
or not, you've demonstrated an ability to transcend your biases over the
years.

Edited in that there were sentences that just reinforced the point at
the end of the first paragraph, and that there were paragraphs before
and after which were not necessary to drive home the point.



And you'll never hear me say Lardass Lloyd Davies.

I've sent you privately an e-mail of some length. It details my
position.


Read and responded to.

--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940