On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:14:24 GMT, "-=jd=-"
wrote:

On Sat 20 Aug 2005 11:00:38a, Andrew Oakley
wrote in message :
Wife's choice, and not a bad one really. NY was sort of like Paris but
much more conservative.
{THUD!!} That was my jaw impacting the floor.
Note to self: avoid Paris like the "plague"...

Oh, Paris is lovely. It could, of course, just be that I just know
Paris better, but I found NY a bit... well, quiet. I'm not one for
nightlife (I don't drink alcohol, for one thing), but in Paris (or any
European town, including London etc) you can't avoid the nightlife;
every street has a pub/bar/cafe and in the evenings the entire city
centre is heaving with people. In New York everything outside Times
Square seemed dead after 8pm. I'm not complaining, since I actually
enjoyed being able to walk around without lots of drunk people
hassling me, but it was so very different from the European
experience. For instance, in my nearby town of Cheltenham (which has a
reputation for being "posh") I just wouldn't walk around in town after
10pm because of all the drunk people.

For instance, in NY after spending an entire week walking around the
city I can only remember noticing ONE bar/pub. In any European town it
would be amazing if you found one street without one bar/pub! Maybe NY
bars blend in to the background? Or maybe there are specific nightlife
districts such as Times Square - maybe it's just planned better
compared to the historical higgledy-piggledy nature of European towns?

What I found similar between NY and Paris was the architecture and the
landmark monuments. Paris and NY both have a large number of
modern-era landmarks such as the Eiffel Tower and the Statue of
Liberty, or the Grand Arch of the Defence and the Empire State
Building. London is a lot older, the landmark buildings are things
like the Tower of London (a medium sized medieval castle).

Peak which was breathtaking. Was also nice to chat to people who, like
me, were country folk. Mind you, they do like their Christianity
there, don't they?
Ehhh... something like that.

What I found really odd everywhere I've been in the USA (Huston, NY,
Boston and California) is that there is virtually no pagan/wiccan
culture.

In the UK there is this underlying understanding that Christianity is
a "new" religion introduced only two thousand years ago and which only
really got going about a thousand years ago. For instance, the church
in the village where I grew up is only nine hundred years old. Whereas
there are pagan standing stones which are three or four thousand years
old, and the local government council in my parent's village recently
gave a grant to rebuild the pagan meeting place in the forest (really
nicely done, with seven tree stumps encircling a wooden stage
platform, and six rows of benches up along the hillside- can be used
for all kinds of outdoor performances, but essentially it's a coven
ground).

What this means is that in the UK you get a lot of shops selling pagan
trinkets, such as pentacle jewellery, wickerwork, crystals,
alternative medicene, incense, that kind of thing. These shops are not
at all difficult to find, they tend to be busy giftshops in prime
tourist areas. Additionally in older towns you get dedicated
witchcraft shops, selling books, ingredients, and a larger range of
trinkets.

The only places in the UK you'll find selling Christian artifacts
(crucifixes, rosaries, scrolls with passages from the Bible etc) are
shops right next to, or inside, cathedrals, or dedicated Christian
bookshops, maybe only one per large town.

Now I've never found ONE shop in the USA selling pagan gifts. Whereas
lots of tourist shops seem to sell crucifix jewellery or small statues
of the virgin Mary or Jesus, for instance. Also my wife is really into
pagan crystals, and I could only find one shop in the whole week I was
driving through California which sold crystals, and that was a geology
shop, not a witchcraft shop.

It was just kind of spooky to see that the USA seemed to take
Christianity so seriously, even in tourist areas, even in modern
cities such as New York.

Maybe this is the Catholic influence? But there are lots of European
countries which are predominantly Catholic too, such as France, and
they don't have this huge imbalance between paganism and new
religions.

--
Andrew Oakley andrew/atsymbol/aoakley/stop/com
Gloucestershire, UK

Down town Jackson,Mississippi (I live in Jackson over on the West side
of Jackson,about four and a half miles West of down town
Jackson,Hey,check out that down town sky cam at www.wapt.com if that
stupid webcam is working) is deader than a door nail at night times
every since they tore down all of the down town Jackson movie theaters
and they made Capitol Street into a stupid one way street.There is sort
of a move afoot by them d..n stupid bas...ds to sort of kind of
"reverse" their DAMAGE to down town Jackson of since back in the
1960's.I doubt if it will work though.When meself and my family moved to
Jackson in the 1940's,I thought Jackson was the biggest City in the
World.Now,Jackson has gotten too d..n big!
cuhulin

The old paris,Frogland eiffel tower coffee shop is in
N'Awlins,Louisiana.It is a coffee shop (or something like that) in
N'Awlins.I have driven right by it a few times before.I will be in
N'Awlins next month visiting the D-Day Museum again and my cousins.
www.ddaymuseum.org
cuhulin

You can take ALL of Frogland and SHOVE IT!
cuhulin

"Andrew Oakley" wrote in message
...

[snip]


What I found really odd everywhere I've been in the USA (Huston, NY,
Boston and California) is that there is virtually no pagan/wiccan
culture.


The majority of SW preachers would say that most US Christianity is
paganism. Of course, these guys don't often have actual buildings for
churches, and have to broadcast across the entire hemisphere in order to
scrape up the meager contributions in order to buy one more day's SW time at
about a dollar a minute.

Brother Stair voices the Christianity/paganism viewpoint well. If you can
hear him, I suggest you tune in the weeks before Halloween and Saturnalia
(Christmas).


and the local government council in my parent's village recently
gave a grant to rebuild the pagan meeting place in the forest


Wow. I wonder what the religious activists would say about that. On one
hand, they're all for government subsidizing a religious interest. On the
other hand, if they get school prayer, the kiddies might end up praying to
the wrong God(s).


Additionally in older towns you get dedicated
witchcraft shops, selling books, ingredients, and a larger range of
trinkets.

I have to think there's something like that in Chicago, although I'm not
sure. I have known people who've claimed to be pagans, but that was back in
the 70s post hippie era.


Also my wife is really into
pagan crystals, and I could only find one shop in the whole week I was
driving through California which sold crystals, and that was a geology
shop, not a witchcraft shop.

Were you in San Francisco? I have the impression that would be the most
likely place for pagan stuff, at least the old world pagan stuff. I think a
great many Americans who find themselves attracted to alternate religions
look into Native American culture or Buddahism. Oh, yeah, let's not forget
another favorite target of the SW preachers -- the Freemasons.

I'll bet there's plenty of items of a Native American religious interest in
the US Southwest.


Maybe this is the Catholic influence? But there are lots of European
countries which are predominantly Catholic too, such as France, and
they don't have this huge imbalance between paganism and new
religions.


The Catholics often co-opt paganism. For example, Mexican Catholics
celebrate "The Day of the Dead". This celebration goes way back to the
Aztecs. The Mexican Americans I talked with said it's still more Aztec than
Catholic.

To a large degree, American culture was formed in the Colonial days by
Protestants, particularly the then newest sort of Protestants such as the
Puritians and other Reformed Christians. Purifying their church (and
government!) from non-scripturial and pagan influences was a high priority.

Frank Dresser