In article ,
Kristoff Bonne wrote:

Gegroet,

Telamon schreef:
Oeps. I am a bit behind scedule replying to this one.
No problem.

OK. I'll take your message first this time.

Snip

You are not taking my message the first or last time. You just want to
argue non points.

Here is the message, DRM has no real advantage over analog as
implemented.

Saying that "if" this or that was changed then it would be better makes
no difference because it does not exist.

Saying that DRM can have all its benefits and advantages but that you
must compare it to an analog radio without features like sync detection
is just stacking the deck in favor of your non argument.

On air broadcast of time and frequency information on a really low bit
rate channel in poor conditions will not work at all so when you need it
the most it won't work.

If you don't want to, and it's clear that you don't, want to discuss
this factually then that's your problem to deal with.

Wait, are you telling me that a good DRM-signal in 10 Khz sounds (e.g.
in stereo) sounds worse then the same signal in AM?

Yeah, I'm telling you that DRM in 10 KHz the sound quality sucks.

Do you have audio-samples to support this claim?

Yes, on the DRM web site. They have example of strong and weak signal
DRM reception and compare it to analog. I've written this for the third
and last time. Here is another thing I'm writing for the last time and
that's low bit rate audio sound sucks whether the source is a DRM
broadcast, streamed from the Internet or a recording.

Digital signals don't belong in the analog AM broadcast band where they
occupy at least three channels. I don't want them there and most people
don't want those transmission there either.

Your desire to be a sucker for DRM is a personal problem as I see it.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:

Wait, are you telling me that a good DRM-signal in 10 Khz sounds (e.g.
in stereo) sounds worse then the same signal in AM?


Yeah, I'm telling you that DRM in 10 KHz the sound quality sucks.


Do you have audio-samples to support this claim?


Yes, on the DRM web site. They have example of strong and weak signal
DRM reception and compare it to analog. I've written this for the third
and last time. Here is another thing I'm writing for the last time and
that's low bit rate audio sound sucks whether the source is a DRM
broadcast, streamed from the Internet or a recording.


I listened to the samples on the sites and all of the "High Quality" DRM
samples sounded better to my ears than the corresponding analog signal.

The "Robust Quality" sample had a lot of digitizing artifacts, but that
used a very low bit rate. However, it may be preferable to the analog
equivalent. That would be a personal judgement, some will prefer the
analog, some the digital.

From what I hear in the samples, any of the 64 QAM/"High Quality"
signals is better than the analog equivalent. To me, DRM has good potential.


craigm

In article .com,
"RHF" wrote:

Telamon,
.
Here is a possible "Market Indicator" about the Future and Fate
of both DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio.
.
The proposed Mini-CCRadio that is scheduled for release this fall.
So do you see DRM or IBOC listed as a feature or an option ? - NO !
http://www.ccrane.com/radios/am-fm-r...-cc-radio.aspx
.
The next big indicator will be the new Eton/Grundig/Tecsun, Sangean
and Degen Radios that will be released in the next few years.
Will DRM and IBOC be a feature or an option with these Radios :
Or simply something that is not there; and thereby going nowhere [.]
.
Will the replacement for the Grundig Satetellit 800 Millennium Radio
feature DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio ?
If not... then the Manufactures are saying a Big "NO" to both DRM
for Shortwave and IBOC for AM and FM Broadcast Radio.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eton-E...RM-IBOC-Radio/
Will it be named the Eton {Elite} E2 with "DRM & IBOC" Radio ?
.
IBOC may be saved by the Automobile Manufactures if they as a Group
start placing IBOC capable AM and FM Broadcast Radios in their new
Cars and Trucks. BUT ! - These same Auto Makers are behind both XM
and Sirius Satellite Radio Systems and Service : Which has a bigger
pay-off and pay-back for them then IBOC could have.
.
Again "The Market Makers" will decide the Future and Fate of
both DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio.

Here is one I know about. Both links are actually for the same radio by
two of the companies that are working together on it.
http://www.codingtechnologies.com/products/applic_broadcast.htm
http://www.mayah.com/newsletter/newsletter6-05.htm

Coding technologies owns some of the code and algorithms that operate in
the radio. Licensing the code is their way to make money on this venture.

Mayah is an electronics manufacturer.

This thing looks like a portable but it's not because it does not
operate on batteries. It uses a 100-240VAC, 1 Amp power supply so you
would not get very far on AA, C or D batteries.

I wrote years ago that DRM portables would have a power problem. You
have to run a lot of processing to get the audio. In order to get the
power down to reasonable levels will require CMOS custom IC's that take
big bucks to develop. That is not going to happen unless the entire
coding and all algorithms become public property.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On 24 Sep 2005 17:38:24 -0700, "RHF"
wrote:

Again "The Market Makers" will decide the Future and Fate of
both DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio.

Definitely. Don't forget also about the new market makers like the
WinRadio. DRM is equisitely suited for software-defined radios:
http://www.winradio.com/drm

John

Telamon wrote:
In article .com,
"RHF" wrote:


Telamon,
.
Here is a possible "Market Indicator" about the Future and Fate
of both DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio.
.
The proposed Mini-CCRadio that is scheduled for release this fall.
So do you see DRM or IBOC listed as a feature or an option ? - NO !
http://www.ccrane.com/radios/am-fm-r...-cc-radio.aspx
.
The next big indicator will be the new Eton/Grundig/Tecsun, Sangean
and Degen Radios that will be released in the next few years.
Will DRM and IBOC be a feature or an option with these Radios :
Or simply something that is not there; and thereby going nowhere [.]
.
Will the replacement for the Grundig Satetellit 800 Millennium Radio
feature DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio ?
If not... then the Manufactures are saying a Big "NO" to both DRM
for Shortwave and IBOC for AM and FM Broadcast Radio.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eton-E...RM-IBOC-Radio/
Will it be named the Eton {Elite} E2 with "DRM & IBOC" Radio ?
.
IBOC may be saved by the Automobile Manufactures if they as a Group
start placing IBOC capable AM and FM Broadcast Radios in their new
Cars and Trucks. BUT ! - These same Auto Makers are behind both XM
and Sirius Satellite Radio Systems and Service : Which has a bigger
pay-off and pay-back for them then IBOC could have.
.
Again "The Market Makers" will decide the Future and Fate of
both DRM on Shortwave and IBOC on AM and FM Broadcast Radio.


Here is one I know about. Both links are actually for the same radio by
two of the companies that are working together on it.
http://www.codingtechnologies.com/products/applic_broadcast.htm
http://www.mayah.com/newsletter/newsletter6-05.htm

Coding technologies owns some of the code and algorithms that operate in
the radio. Licensing the code is their way to make money on this venture.

Mayah is an electronics manufacturer.

This thing looks like a portable but it's not because it does not
operate on batteries. It uses a 100-240VAC, 1 Amp power supply so you
would not get very far on AA, C or D batteries.

I wrote years ago that DRM portables would have a power problem. You
have to run a lot of processing to get the audio. In order to get the
power down to reasonable levels will require CMOS custom IC's that take
big bucks to develop. That is not going to happen unless the entire
coding and all algorithms become public property.





I work with a couple of high end receiver manufacturers that are
right now dealing with the question of IBOC. The licensing costs extend
not only to receiver manufacturers, but to the broadcasters as well, and
right the costs of implementing IBOC are steep. Mid 5 figures in most
cases. And that's becoming a roadblock for the implementation of IBOC on
the transmission end for many broadcasters. DRM is little diffferent in
that regard. What movtivate broadcasters to move this way is two fold.
One is that Powell's FCC mandated that all new broadcast technologies
must be digital. Period. TV, Radio. Digital. The other has been the holy
grail of broadcasters since David Sarnoff bludgeoned his first
competitor: Subscription over-the-air broadcast. Make no mistake, that's
coming.

The technical advantages of Ibiquity on FM are minimal. In A-B tests
of FM IBOC, listeners have noted a difference, but not a clear
preference for HD on FM, but only when the analog signal was processed
in the traditional manner. And as many preferred analog as HD. When both
were unprocessed, listeners couldn't tell analog FM from IBOC HD Radio.
So, the value, at least for now, is in the buzzword.

There have been some minor, improvements in signal areas where
multipath is an issue. Instead of picket fencing, in severe areas,
there are drop outs, when the error correction fails. Dropouts, in the
tests I've been involved in, have been rare. Multipath resistance in
most cases is actually quite good.

On the AM side, HD radio is an enormous noise source. With at least
two broadcasters in Chicago turning off their HD signal to protect their
Milwaukee stations from the QRM. Audio performance, again, is of
questionable benefit, because of the digital artifacts and low bit
encoding. Some I've heard have been downright awful.

In AM modulated signals, DRM, in tests I've been involved in, has
been a clear improvement over Ibiquity in regard to audio quality. Where
bandwidth exists, the audio can be quite striking. But that depends on
the bitrate, and often, the stability of the signal. QRM, however, is an
enormous problem for DRM, like Ibiquity, and both have proven to take
more bandwidth than originally promised. Creating problems for the
analog listener. Many car radios extant, are unable to separate the
digital hash from the analog audio on the AM side. And especially the AM
hash from first, second, and often third adjacent stations, in and out
of market. Receivers are complex, and expensive, and they consume huge
amounts of power, rendering battery operation problematic for the casual
user. For hobbyist geeks like the members of this group, that's less of
a problem. But, as has been pointed out in so many tasteless ways,
dramatically and bluntly so in the case of Mark Byford, we're of no
consequence in the grand scheme of things broadcast.

Radio Nederland has stated time and again that they're committed to
Shortwave, and have embraced DRM. They're by far in the minority of SW
broadcasters in their commitment, and with political and economic forces
rising to curb production of, and make illegal receivers capable of non
domestic broadcast reception (Billy Tauzin has been pushing a bandplan
for US type accepted receivers that would not permit the public access
to non broadcast media for years, now) and BPL threatening much of non
broadcast spectra, the outlook for market and DRM driven expansion of SW
in the US is dim. With most national networks moving to FM in Europe,
and Worldspace elsewhere, the overall outlook for SW is not looking too
good. And politically, digital modulation, means local-only reception,
whether UKW or MW, and that means the ability to control the public's
access to information. Don't think for a minute that's not on the radar
for most governments.

Broadcasters endorse any moves that curtail domestic non broadcast
listening, because it puts them in a powerful and exclusive position in
control of vital information, without fear of contradiction from
alternate sources. It also puts subcription over-the-air broadcast
within grasp. And FCC has stated it's desires to move all broadcast away
from analog modulation schemes. But, as has been pointed out before,
licensing of the technology is expensive. So broadcasters' motivations
are mixed.

All of which means a more or less chaotic state of affairs for both
DRM and Ibiquity, both in the US and abroad. And if the market is to
decide the fate of these technologies, then we should take a lesson from
another market driven broadcast innovation: AM stereo.

Market drive in broadcast is a hit or miss affair. FM had been
languishing on the edges of extinction since Amstrong took his beating
from Sarnoff. It wasn't until FCC mandated in the 60's that all new
radios produced were to have both AM and FM stages, that FM listening
began to take off. Even though FM radios had been available and
affordable for years. Similarly, UHF TV had existed for decades, with
survivability hovering near zero for UHF broadcasters until FCC mandated
that all new TV sets would carry all UHF channels. Color TV took more
than two decades to catch fire. FM stereo didn't become universal until
the late 70's. AM stereo...well, it was a good idea at the time. And we
should all thank Leonard Kahn for his experiments in AM stereo 50 years
ago. It could have been fun. We can certainly point to the market drive
for THAT success.

So, without an immediate public embrace of the technology, it's not
likely that DRM or Ibiquity will take off. And the public isn't likely
to be spending $500 or more on a radio for debatable improvements in
performance, when 'just as good' technology is available for less than
$10 at any Wal-Mart. And if you think that high performance audio is an
issue with the public, then consider that people are getting their music
on their cell phones, for Heaven's sake. $500 radios for IBOC or DRM, in
that climate is, to borrow from Reverend Johnson in 'Blazing Saddles,'
"...just jerking off."

Now, a Federal mandate for digital modulation schemes is in place.
And a Federal type acceptance and conversion timetable isn't too far off.

But then, we were supposed to have all been switched over to HD TV by
the first of 2006, too. And Michael Powell is gone. And there is no
mandate for receiver manufacturers to include digital demodulation in
all new products.


Don't expect big things for DRM, or Ibiquity, anytime soon.

Everything digital,,, subscription radio.That means the crooked
politicians want us all to pay through the teeth for radio and tv.I am
already paying over $40.00 each month for my DirecTV subscription,over
140 tv channels and only a hand full of them are worth watching,in my
opinion.Will Analog Radio become obsolete someday? By the way,the Stupid
fcc needs to get that Stupid powell guy on out of there.Or did they
already?
cuhulin

michael powell is gone? GOOD.That other no good (they are both,no good)
powell refused to send some Helicopters to Somalia even though our
U.S.Troops over there had asked for them.The rest is History.
www.realchange.org (Skeleton Closet) I would never even buy a
hamburger if any of them powells were flipping them.
cuhulin

D Peter Maus wrote:
Market drive in broadcast is a hit or miss affair. FM had been
languishing on the edges of extinction since Amstrong took his beating
from Sarnoff. It wasn't until FCC mandated in the 60's that all new
radios produced were to have both AM and FM stages, that FM listening
began to take off.

I never heard of this. Further, from the sixties on, AM-only radios have
been available all over the USA. What made FM take off was underground
radio.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

clifto wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

Market drive in broadcast is a hit or miss affair. FM had been
languishing on the edges of extinction since Amstrong took his beating
from Sarnoff. It wasn't until FCC mandated in the 60's that all new
radios produced were to have both AM and FM stages, that FM listening
began to take off.



I never heard of this. Further, from the sixties on, AM-only radios have
been available all over the USA.

Actually, for a while, they weren't.


What made FM take off was underground
radio.



What made FM take off was the popularity of mass appeal programming
found by listeners migrating to FM as FM radios became more widely
available. FM had been around for more than 20 years by the time the
general market discovered it, with programming limited to classical
music, because ASCAP royalties did not have to be paid, and beautiful
music formats because of it's cost effectiveness. Most FM stations had
short lifespans until the 60's, because there was just no one in any
numbers listening. Primarily because of the limited value of making the
investment in an FM capable radio for what little was actually on the
bands. Even as late as the 60's, FM capable radios were expensive.
Portables often running $50 or more. My first FM was a Raleigh 9
transistor, in the late 60's, after FM radios became manufactured in
numbers, and it still cost almost $30, a lot of money then, when AM
radios had been available for half that.

Underground radio went dark for the same reasons most FMs went dark
in the late 40's and 50's: there weren't enough listeners to support it.
At the same time, Top 40 and AOR radio were stealing listeners from AM
in droves, dwarfing the size of underground audiences.

D Peter Maus wrote:
clifto wrote:

D Peter Maus wrote:

Market drive in broadcast is a hit or miss affair. FM had been
languishing on the edges of extinction since Amstrong took his
beating from Sarnoff. It wasn't until FCC mandated in the 60's that
all new radios produced were to have both AM and FM stages, that FM
listening began to take off.




I never heard of this. Further, from the sixties on, AM-only radios have
been available all over the USA.


Actually, for a while, they weren't.


What made FM take off was underground

radio.



What made FM take off was the popularity of mass appeal programming
found by listeners migrating to FM as FM radios became more widely
available. FM had been around for more than 20 years by the time the
general market discovered it, with programming limited to classical
music, because ASCAP royalties did not have to be paid, and beautiful
music formats because of it's cost effectiveness. Most FM stations had
short lifespans until the 60's, because there was just no one in any
numbers listening. Primarily because of the limited value of making the
investment in an FM capable radio for what little was actually on the
bands. Even as late as the 60's, FM capable radios were expensive.
Portables often running $50 or more. My first FM was a Raleigh 9
transistor, in the late 60's, after FM radios became manufactured in
numbers, and it still cost almost $30, a lot of money then, when AM
radios had been available for half that.

Underground radio went dark for the same reasons most FMs went dark in
the late 40's and 50's: there weren't enough listeners to support it. At
the same time, Top 40 and AOR radio were stealing listeners from AM in
droves, dwarfing the size of underground audiences.



Let me make a clarification to that. I'm not suggesting that AOR and
Top 40 were around in the late 40's and 50's. But they, were, in fact,
latecomers to the FM band around the time that underground radio was in
it's final days. Stations like KDNA, ST Louis lost their asses to KSHE
(AOR), KADI (AOR) and KSLQ (Top 40.)

KDNA never pulled appreciable numbers out of a few high school and
college kids, and was replaced with Schulke Beautiful Music as KEZK. In
fact, KDNA's audience was dwarfed by KXOK (AM Top 40), and even among
the high school FM afficionados of the time, didn't make a strong
showing against KSLQ. College kids were listening more to KSHE than KDNA.

What KDNA did do well, was introduce non mainstream music to an
audience that was already hungering for something that was out of the
popular tide. John McLaughlin, Robbie Basho, Ravi Shankar, and Leo
Kottke were staples of KDNA programming. I heard my first Firesign
Theatre on KDNA. But the numbers tuning in, like most alternative
formats, were very small.

KACO, also licensed in St Louis attempted undeground radio, but the
guy who owned it couldn't affort the upkeep, eventually running only 12
hours a day, and spinning the tunes himself. Ask anyone how many times a
day he played the theme from "Mannix." By the time KACO went away, me
and the guy who owned it were the only ones who knew it was there.

Some underground stations made a bit of noise. Some actually did
reasonably well. But they are dark today for the same reasons as any of
the stations who ever went dark: Lack of interest.

Shame, really. Some of them, even KDNA, were actually quite good and
well executed.

Underground radio was an interesting historical moment in
broadcasting's colourful history, but it was hardly the impetus claimed
for it.