In article ,
craigm wrote:

Telamon wrote:

The statements that I have seen before about DRM being an open standard
are as far as I see false because the software is not in the public
domain.

Like this one?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/


No I don't like it. This is another computer - radio. You do realize
that most of these units need a computer to operate? These are not stand
alone radios. The link I provided is the one stand alone SW radio that I
know about.


The reply was in response to your statement that the software was not in
public domain. Source code is available so your argument fails.

You do not have the rights to the software, those rights are reserved.
For the time being you can down load and compile it on a local machine
for your own use. If the rights holder tell you to stop using it then
that's it. If money is demanded then you will have to pay it. There are
many ways this can be enforced.

There is one stand alone demonstration radio. I provided the link to it.
The others are multi kilo buck professional rack mount units that
consumers are not going to buy. All the other links by the DRM Troll
point to AMBCB and FM NOT SW RADIOS or computer assisted radios.

So the argument that "DRM consumer penetration into SW" is false.

Just because the software runs on a computer today, doesn't mean it must
always run on a computer. Initially MP3 encosded music only ran on a
computer. Now you can easily find battery operated MP3 players.

So what.

There are some that run 70 hours on a single AAA battery. Battery life
does not need to be an issue either.

Again so what.

The other links are not SW radios or they need computers to operate or
they are rack mount units that are and will continue to be very
expensive. The rack mounts are not consumer units.



Once a semiconductor manufacturer produces an ASIC for DRM it will be
possible to produce battery operated radios with DRM. A receiver
manufacturer could also create a custom ASIC.

Yeah that's the no brainer requirement it will take to create a radio
that will operate on batteries. Make no mistake about this, battery life
will be shorter than the current generation radios.

So who do you think is going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars
to make ASIC's to do this?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
craigm wrote:


Telamon wrote:


The statements that I have seen before about DRM being an open standard
are as far as I see false because the software is not in the public
domain.

The software does not have to be in the public domain for the standard
to be open. The standard is one thing, the software is an implementation
of the standard. I can write software that complies with an open
standard and sell it without putting the source in the public domain.



Like this one?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/


No I don't like it. This is another computer - radio. You do realize
that most of these units need a computer to operate? These are not stand
alone radios. The link I provided is the one stand alone SW radio that I
know about.


The reply was in response to your statement that the software was not in
public domain. Source code is available so your argument fails.


You do not have the rights to the software, those rights are reserved.
For the time being you can down load and compile it on a local machine
for your own use. If the rights holder tell you to stop using it then
that's it.

If you follow the requirements of the GPL, then the rights holder won't
tell you to stop using it.


If money is demanded then you will have to pay it.
Per the GPL, any money is for distribution costs. Since the links were
for a free download site, there is no cost, now or in the furute.


There are
many ways this can be enforced.

Yes, but you would have to violate the terms of the GPL.


There is one stand alone demonstration radio. I provided the link to it.
The others are multi kilo buck professional rack mount units that
consumers are not going to buy. All the other links by the DRM Troll
point to AMBCB and FM NOT SW RADIOS or computer assisted radios.

So the argument that "DRM consumer penetration into SW" is false.


Just because the software runs on a computer today, doesn't mean it must
always run on a computer. Initially MP3 encosded music only ran on a
computer. Now you can easily find battery operated MP3 players.


So what.

You argue that DRM is primarily limited to computers and that is an
issue for you. I provided an example of a technology that was initially
limited to computers and is now available in low cost devices that fit
in a pocket. The point being, the same can happen with DRM.



There are some that run 70 hours on a single AAA battery. Battery life
does not need to be an issue either.


Again so what.

You argue that the technology to turn a digital stream to audio is too
power hungry for portable devices. Again, MP3 players show that this
does not have to be so.



The other links are not SW radios or they need computers to operate or
they are rack mount units that are and will continue to be very
expensive. The rack mounts are not consumer units.



Once a semiconductor manufacturer produces an ASIC for DRM it will be
possible to produce battery operated radios with DRM. A receiver
manufacturer could also create a custom ASIC.


Yeah that's the no brainer requirement it will take to create a radio
that will operate on batteries. Make no mistake about this, battery life
will be shorter than the current generation radios.

So who do you think is going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars
to make ASIC's to do this?

Sony could. TI could. Philips could. Analog Devices could. If you could
sell tens of thousands of them, why not. Many companies are making ASICs.

DRM uses MPEG4 AAC audio coding as one of its choices. The Apple IPOD
supports MPEG4 AAC audio coding. Perhaps half the ASIC work is already done.

craigm

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
craigm wrote:


Telamon wrote:


The statements that I have seen before about DRM being an open standard
are as far as I see false because the software is not in the public
domain.

The software does not have to be in the public domain for the standard
to be open. The standard is one thing, the software is an implementation
of the standard. I can write software that complies with an open
standard and sell it without putting the source in the public domain.

The DRM standard in part uses proprietary code licensed by several
companies depend on the mode you operate in. That does not meet the open
requirement.

Like this one?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/


No I don't like it. This is another computer - radio. You do realize
that most of these units need a computer to operate? These are not stand
alone radios. The link I provided is the one stand alone SW radio that I
know about.


The reply was in response to your statement that the software was not in
public domain. Source code is available so your argument fails.


You do not have the rights to the software, those rights are reserved.
For the time being you can down load and compile it on a local machine
for your own use. If the rights holder tell you to stop using it then
that's it.

If you follow the requirements of the GPL, then the rights holder won't
tell you to stop using it.


If money is demanded then you will have to pay it.
Per the GPL, any money is for distribution costs. Since the links were
for a free download site, there is no cost, now or in the furute.


There are
many ways this can be enforced.

Yes, but you would have to violate the terms of the GPL.

I don't know what you are talking about here. This software is being
sold and is not free. If there is a free DRM radio decoder I did not
know about it. I don't understand how this could be because some of the
encoding/decoding algorithms are not free. Please point to the free DRM
decoding software.

There is one stand alone demonstration radio. I provided the link to it.
The others are multi kilo buck professional rack mount units that
consumers are not going to buy. All the other links by the DRM Troll
point to AMBCB and FM NOT SW RADIOS or computer assisted radios.

So the argument that "DRM consumer penetration into SW" is false.


Just because the software runs on a computer today, doesn't mean it must
always run on a computer. Initially MP3 encosded music only ran on a
computer. Now you can easily find battery operated MP3 players.


So what.

You argue that DRM is primarily limited to computers and that is an
issue for you. I provided an example of a technology that was initially
limited to computers and is now available in low cost devices that fit
in a pocket. The point being, the same can happen with DRM.



There are some that run 70 hours on a single AAA battery. Battery life
does not need to be an issue either.


Again so what.

You argue that the technology to turn a digital stream to audio is too
power hungry for portable devices. Again, MP3 players show that this
does not have to be so.



The other links are not SW radios or they need computers to operate or
they are rack mount units that are and will continue to be very
expensive. The rack mounts are not consumer units.



Once a semiconductor manufacturer produces an ASIC for DRM it will be
possible to produce battery operated radios with DRM. A receiver
manufacturer could also create a custom ASIC.


Yeah that's the no brainer requirement it will take to create a radio
that will operate on batteries. Make no mistake about this, battery life
will be shorter than the current generation radios.

So who do you think is going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars
to make ASIC's to do this?

Sony could. TI could. Philips could. Analog Devices could. If you could
sell tens of thousands of them, why not. Many companies are making ASICs.

DRM uses MPEG4 AAC audio coding as one of its choices. The Apple IPOD
supports MPEG4 AAC audio coding. Perhaps half the ASIC work is already done.

You are missing about every point in the thread. The DRM Troll started
out saying that the DRM SW was imminent because consumer radios existed.
There is one that I can find no thanks to the Troll. I don't know if
this one radio is actually being sold since it is described as a
"concept radio." He kept posting links of the same radios that are not
SW radios but are AMBCB or FM. The radios that did receive SW need a
computer to operate or they were very expensive professional rack mount
units. Basically the radios that need a computer are science experiments
for early adopters. There is no analog equivalent DRM SW radio being
manufactured today as far as I can tell.

Of course there could be a DRM SW equivalent tomorrow. Of course any
company with the resources could spend the money to produce ASIC's to do
the job. It is just that they haven't done it yet contrary to what the
DRM Troll is espousing.

A DRM radio needs to perform many functions compared to what an MP3
player needs to do. Additional functions over what an analog radio
requires so even if a well financed company decided to build a high
order of integration with several ASIC's a DRM radio would still draw
much more power than a analog radio. Standard batteries many not be able
to handle the power requirements and when DRM SW portables show up they
will probably use lithium ion rechargeable batteries.

There is nothing magical about DRM technology. Everything used by the
DRM scheme is used someplace else. Nothing new here and that might be
part of the problem of a technology not well matched to the SW
propagation environment.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:

You are missing about every point in the thread. The DRM Troll started
out saying that the DRM SW was imminent because consumer radios existed.
There is one that I can find no thanks to the Troll. I don't know if
this one radio is actually being sold since it is described as a
"concept radio." He kept posting links of the same radios that are not
SW radios but are AMBCB or FM. The radios that did receive SW need a
computer to operate or they were very expensive professional rack mount
units. Basically the radios that need a computer are science experiments
for early adopters. There is no analog equivalent DRM SW radio being
manufactured today as far as I can tell.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California


A "Concept" unit is usually something that was built to take to trade
shows to see if there is a market for a product. With radios its not
uncommon for the "Concept" device to only have a computer board and
software to let you operate the controls. I saw one that cost a company
over $1,000,000 US dollars. It had a laptop inside, and a bunch of 50
Ohm 2 Watt carbon resistors across all of the BNC connectors, in case
someone actually tried to hook it up. The real prototype DSP based
telemetry receiver was still on the designers bench, not working.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Telamon wrote:

The software does not have to be in the public domain for the standard
to be open. The standard is one thing, the software is an implementation
of the standard. I can write software that complies with an open
standard and sell it without putting the source in the public domain.


The DRM standard in part uses proprietary code licensed by several
companies depend on the mode you operate in. That does not meet the open
requirement.



I think the difference in our opinion revolve around the definition of
an open standard. There is enough information on the net that someone
can develop the code to receive DRM.





There are

many ways this can be enforced.

Yes, but you would have to violate the terms of the GPL.


I don't know what you are talking about here. This software is being
sold and is not free. If there is a free DRM radio decoder I did not
know about it. I don't understand how this could be because some of the
encoding/decoding algorithms are not free. Please point to the free DRM
decoding software.


You haven't looked at http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/

You download for free, compile and use. If you don't like something
about the code, change it, recompile and use.





You are missing about every point in the thread. The DRM Troll started
out saying that the DRM SW was imminent because consumer radios existed.
There is one that I can find no thanks to the Troll. I don't know if
this one radio is actually being sold since it is described as a
"concept radio." He kept posting links of the same radios that are not
SW radios but are AMBCB or FM. The radios that did receive SW need a
computer to operate or they were very expensive professional rack mount
units. Basically the radios that need a computer are science experiments
for early adopters. There is no analog equivalent DRM SW radio being
manufactured today as far as I can tell.

I see no DRM radios similar to a Sony 7600, yet. (If that is what you
mean.) That does not mean it can't happen.


Of course there could be a DRM SW equivalent tomorrow. Of course any
company with the resources could spend the money to produce ASIC's to do
the job. It is just that they haven't done it yet contrary to what the
DRM Troll is espousing.


The other links in the thread refer to a TI part.
http://focus.ti.com/docs/apps/catalo...dio_digrad_drm
Check this link where it is being used.
http://www.radioscape.com/downloads/...500_Doc_02.pdf
or,
http://www.radioscape.com/



A DRM radio needs to perform many functions compared to what an MP3
player needs to do. Additional functions over what an analog radio
requires so even if a well financed company decided to build a high
order of integration with several ASIC's a DRM radio would still draw
much more power than a analog radio. Standard batteries many not be able
to handle the power requirements and when DRM SW portables show up they
will probably use lithium ion rechargeable batteries.

You are missing my point about the advances in technology. What has
happened with MP3 players, PDAs, cell phones, and computers has lead to
portable devices that are battery operated. The same concepts applied to
DRM can yield similar results.

Yes, it will use more power than an analog radio. However, we are not
talking about the same performance as a radio with no digital circuitry.



There is nothing magical about DRM technology. Everything used by the
DRM scheme is used someplace else. Nothing new here and that might be
part of the problem of a technology not well matched to the SW
propagation environment.


Time will tell.

I think there is good potential.

craigm

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Telamon wrote:

The software does not have to be in the public domain for the standard
to be open. The standard is one thing, the software is an implementation
of the standard. I can write software that complies with an open
standard and sell it without putting the source in the public domain.


The DRM standard in part uses proprietary code licensed by several
companies depend on the mode you operate in. That does not meet the open
requirement.



I think the difference in our opinion revolve around the definition of
an open standard. There is enough information on the net that someone
can develop the code to receive DRM.


There are many ways this can be enforced.

Yes, but you would have to violate the terms of the GPL.


I don't know what you are talking about here. This software is being
sold and is not free. If there is a free DRM radio decoder I did not
know about it. I don't understand how this could be because some of the
encoding/decoding algorithms are not free. Please point to the free DRM
decoding software.


You haven't looked at http://sourceforge.net/projects/drm/

You download for free, compile and use. If you don't like something
about the code, change it, recompile and use.

Snip

Interesting that Coding technologies will allow an individual use of
un-compiled code. However, they are not giving up their rights to that
code in a commercial enterprise. They expect to get paid for that
software if it goes in somebody's radio.
http://www.codingtechnologies.com/licensing/DRM.htm

Also interesting is that compiled versions of the Dream software must be
paid for on the DRM website.
http://www.winradio.com/home/download-drm.htm

Maybe you can explain why a commercial company would provide un-compiled
versions of it's software for free while at the same time trying to
sell it.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California