On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 00:41:02 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:


I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX.

Proves the case, doesn't it?

As long as Citadel doesn't mess up KGO, I'll be OK. I can get some FM
HD clear as a bell, whereas the stereo is really bad.

Sol Levine's running 1260/540 AM audio on KMZT's second HD channel. I
like that.

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

[snip]


So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group.
DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system
will sound better the more bandwidth you use.


I've had a frightening thought. What if I'm wrong and ibiquity's right?
What if there really are lots of people yearning for the IBOC sound?
Underwater tin can audio probably sounds normal to less expirenced ears.
Hell, we embraced electonic distortion as a method for making music. What
might the younger generation be coming to?

I'm beginning to appreciate the fear and loathing my Grandfather must have
felt when he first heard Link Wray.

Frank Dresser

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

[snip]


So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group.
DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system
will sound better the more bandwidth you use.


I've had a frightening thought. What if I'm wrong and ibiquity's right?
What if there really are lots of people yearning for the IBOC sound?
Underwater tin can audio probably sounds normal to less expirenced ears.
Hell, we embraced electonic distortion as a method for making music. What
might the younger generation be coming to?

I'm beginning to appreciate the fear and loathing my Grandfather must have
felt when he first heard Link Wray.

I do notice today that WBBM 780 Chicago has their IBOC off. Hopefully they'll
keep it off.

IBOC = QRM

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one,
I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his
internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in
radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative
towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX
organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the
detriment of those of us who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is
skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news
group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For
some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and
profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the
qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants:
improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national
commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay
off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your
wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off
skywave,
and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings
outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.

Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.






Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.


Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.









I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.



That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.


The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.



Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.

D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one,
I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his
internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in
radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative
towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX
organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the
detriment of those of us who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is
skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news
group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For
some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and
profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the
qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants:
improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national
commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay
off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your
wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off
skywave,
and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings
outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.

Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.


Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.

Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.

I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.


That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.

The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.

Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.

WNYW was a cool station, back in its day.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote:


WNYW was a cool station, back in its day.



VERY cool.




dxAce
Michigan
USA

In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article
,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

odigy.co m. ..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet
one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios
and his internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to
changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are
very negative towards the way stations operate. I have
disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all
seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us
who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage,
is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in
this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for
trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW
DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting
as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the
FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing
exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and
national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of
stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to
continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money
off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than
200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and
embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.

Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.


Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.


Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.


I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.



That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.


The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.



Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.


Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go.
The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial
that is not so annoying.

I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA.
However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not
have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk
format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air
name?

By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob
retired so the morning show is all new people now.

Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams
generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and
mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their
store.

I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a
1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product
would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples
even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only
considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear
advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though.

But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which
according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area
combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to
the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing
department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many
people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people
buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales
figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an
independent market share survey method.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article
,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

odigy.co m. ..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet
one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios
and his internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to
changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are
very negative towards the way stations operate. I have
disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all
seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us
who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage,
is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in
this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for
trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW
DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting
as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the
FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing
exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and
national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of
stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to
continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money
off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than
200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and
embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.
Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.

Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.


Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.


I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.


That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.


The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.


Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.


Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go.
The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial
that is not so annoying.

I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA.
However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not
have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk
format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air
name?


I would have been the KVTA imaging voice, not a host. But when I was
on the air, over the years, I was very cleverly known as David Peter Maus.



By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob
retired so the morning show is all new people now.

Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams
generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and
mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their
store.

I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a
1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product
would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples
even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only
considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear
advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though.


PI's, or Per Inquiry spots, are sold and operated differently than
traditional spot advertising, but even PI's are tracked with regional or
local toll free numbers, logged IP's at websites and zipcodes on credit
card numbers. Even if they ask you where you heard the spot, if the
location data and your claim don't agree, often the data may be tossed
out depending on who's actually handling the PI. And toll free numbers
are usually set up so as to only receive calls from specified exchanges,
or specified areas. Out of region calls do not connect.

So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way
advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on
the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would
receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone
number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early
days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households
connected to cable that may be accessible to the
program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero.
WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area,
and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership
figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since
no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based
on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not
impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched
markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would
attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be
available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many
stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil
salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal
results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time.




But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which
according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area
combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to
the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing
department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many
people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people
buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales
figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an
independent market share survey method.


Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many
stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it.
It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies
like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of
day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics,
with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell
quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating,
share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he
wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing
revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often
went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar
figure for each share point in target.

Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution,
economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within
the Area of Dominant Influence.

ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market,
population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question.

Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these
considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here.

So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of
Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the
best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per
point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the
DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less.

Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's
effect on what is left of the DXing hobby.

No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business
of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic
group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,
de-briefed or numbered.

They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science.


So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to
anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it
or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of
IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years,
but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has
always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money.

So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight
IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because
LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the
money. Always.



p

In article
,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article
,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

odigy.co m. ..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet
one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios
and his internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to
changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are
very negative towards the way stations operate. I have
disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all
seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us
who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage,
is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in
this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for
trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW
DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting
as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the
FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing
exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and
national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of
stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to
continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money
off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than
200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and
embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.
Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.

Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.


Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.


I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.


That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.


The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.


Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.


Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go.
The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial
that is not so annoying.

I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA.
However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not
have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk
format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air
name?


I would have been the KVTA imaging voice, not a host. But when I was
on the air, over the years, I was very cleverly known as David Peter Maus.



By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob
retired so the morning show is all new people now.

Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams
generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and
mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their
store.

I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a
1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product
would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples
even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only
considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear
advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though.


PI's, or Per Inquiry spots, are sold and operated differently than
traditional spot advertising, but even PI's are tracked with regional or
local toll free numbers, logged IP's at websites and zipcodes on credit
card numbers. Even if they ask you where you heard the spot, if the
location data and your claim don't agree, often the data may be tossed
out depending on who's actually handling the PI. And toll free numbers
are usually set up so as to only receive calls from specified exchanges,
or specified areas. Out of region calls do not connect.

So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way
advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on
the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would
receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone
number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early
days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households
connected to cable that may be accessible to the
program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero.
WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area,
and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership
figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since
no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based
on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not
impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched
markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would
attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be
available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many
stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil
salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal
results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time.




But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which
according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area
combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to
the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing
department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many
people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people
buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales
figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an
independent market share survey method.


Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many
stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it.
It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies
like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of
day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics,
with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell
quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating,
share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he
wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing
revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often
went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar
figure for each share point in target.

Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution,
economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within
the Area of Dominant Influence.

ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market,
population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question.

Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these
considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here.

So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of
Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the
best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per
point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the
DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less.

Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's
effect on what is left of the DXing hobby.

No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business
of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic
group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,
de-briefed or numbered.

They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science.


So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to
anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it
or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of
IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years,
but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has
always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money.

So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight
IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because
LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the
money. Always.


What is an imaging voice? Would you be the guy saying "this is KVTA
1520, its 12 o'clock" on the hour? Maybe reading some of the commercials?
Radio station self promotion ads?


Thanks again for explaining the marketing situation for AMBCB. Very
instructive.

So if anyone wants to complain about IBOC it has to be one local station
interfering with another local station.

If you will indulge me I have another question about the definition of
local. Lets take an example from this web site if you have no objections
to it as an example. Here is a coverage map for KFI 640 AM. You will
note it has three contours local, distant and fringe.

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat...tatus=L&hours=
U

For the purposes of marketing which one applies local, distant or fringe?

If someone wanted to complain about IBOC interference which contour
would the two stations have to be within for the complaint to be
considered a valid complaint?

Or maybe this contour map is not appropriate for either question?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a
1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product
would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples
even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only
considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear
advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though.


[snip]

As far as I know, the advertising heard on WWCR is bought by the people who
buy airtime from WWCR. I do know WWCR actively solicits programming but
I've never heard WWCR solicit advertising as I've heard on a few local
stations.

http://www.wwcr.com/wwcr_sales_information.html

Alex Jones has said the money he gets from Berkey is what he uses to stay on
shortwave.

Frank Dresser