Why Antenna Tuners Aren't Necessarily Useful for Shortwave Listening - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

In article .com,
wrote:

They work well in a low local noise location.

As will nearly anything.

Well that's the point of using a common mode antenna.

A random or long wire could be a good reference antenna against a
new design.

To me, a random wire would be a poor reference antenna. To me, there
are basically two reference antennas. The horizontal dipole, which
would be the reference for horizontal antennas, and the 1/4 monopole,
which would be a reference to compare against vertical antennas. For
elevated verticals, I use the 1/4 wave ground plane as the reference
antenna. A random wire is much too random. The antennas I use as
benchmarks all have well known and repeatable performance. All my
horizontal wire antennas are compared to the 1/2 wave dipole. BTW,
not many win either, unless they are gain antennas. As far as
efficiency on a certain band, it's hard to beat a coax fed dipole.
And thusly, it's my usual "benchmark" antenna.

You are not making logical sense. The random wire non-resonant common
mode antenna is a good reference antenna precisely because it has little
theoretical gain and it will work anywhere. You compare it against a
dipole and the dipole should show gain over it as should any other
antenna type made to be resonant at some frequency. Stop thinking like
an amateur, this is a SW listening news group. A random wire is the
basic antenna here. If you want technical antenna theory then yeah a
dipole is a basic reference radiator most transmit antennas.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

For One and All,

THE PROFESSIONAL {AMATEUR} VIEW POINT
- - - HAMMING IT UP ! - - -
The 1/2 Wave Length Dipole and the 1/4 Wave Length Vertical are both
good Technical {Reference} Antennas for the "Specific Frequency"
related to their Measured Wave Lengths. For Amateur {Ham} Radio use
where you are Operating in a Certain Amateur Band and on a Single
Selected Frequency; they are excellent Receive and Transmit Antennas.

SHORWAVE LISTENING (SWL) - HEY IT'S JUST A HOBBY
[ KEEPING IT SIMPLE AND PRACTICAL ] {KISAP}
The Random Wire Antenna that is generally good on All Frequencies
across the Shortwave Bands from 1.8 MHz to 30 MHz is the most commonly
used Antenna for Shortwave Listening (SWL) and thus is the Practical
{Reference} Antenna for the Shortwave Listener (SWL). It is simply
A-Common-Point-of-Reference for All Shortwave Listeners (SWLs) to
'compare' the relative perfromance of their respective Shortwave
Listening (SWL) Antennas. The Random Wire Antenna, while not very
good on any Specific Frequency is simply so-so-good across All
Shortwave Frequencies. To some extent the qualities that make an
'un-tuned' Random Wire a poor Amateur Antenna; are the same qualities
that make it a very good Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna. The
modern solid-state General Coverage 1.8 MHz to 30 MHz Shortwave
Receiver has enough Gain and sufficient Dynamic Range to make full use
of the Signal Levels that can be producted by a Random Wire Antenna
that is 35 Feet to 105 Feet long. For most Shortwave Listeners (SWLs)
what more do they need other than Lower Noise and Better Signal Quality
relative to Noise. {Improved Signal-to-Noise S/N Ratio}.
The-Bottom-Line : The Random Wire Antenna is :
+ Simple
+ Practical
+ More Than "Good Enough"
For the vast majority of the Shortwave Listener's
(SWLs) Shortwave Radio Listening Needs [.]

THE NEXT STEP - LOW NOISE INVERTED "L" {RANDOM WIRE} ANTENNA
Starting with the Random Wire Antenna and incorporating a few
improvements can result in an Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna that
has for it's size and placement a better Signal-to-Noise S/N Ratio then
a plain Random Wire {so-called Longwire} Antenna

THREE-TO-READ BY JOHN DOTY :
* The Inverted "L" Antenna 'Shape' lends itself to the Design
Concepts of a "Low Noise Antenna" that has been popularized
by John Doty; consisting of: Antenna Element; Matching Transformer;
Grounding Point; Coax Cable Feed-in-Line; and Radio/Receiver.
DOTY= http://www.anarc.org/naswa/badx/ante...e_antenna.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...enna/message/2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/374
- Two Reasons to use a Balun (Matching Transformer)
with a Receive Only Antenna.
DOTY= http://www.anarc.org/naswa/badx/ante..._longwire.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/150
- Magnetic Longwire Balun (MLB) - Build Your Own "DIY"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/177
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/466
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/467
- Balun Reading List ( Long )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/337
- The "Grounding-Point" = Ground Rods and Ground Wires ETC.
DOTY= http://www.anarc.org/naswa/badx/antennas/grounding.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/425
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/nordicdx/antenna/ground/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/470
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...na/message/539


LIST OF MORE TO READ - Low-Noise Invered "L" Antenna

* How does the "Doty" Inverted-L Antenna do . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ff7ab457d5966c

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...aaa91efcba72d6

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...1f2641323eed34

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...a2a935f52a5d65


* Question is 'it' a Longwire {Random Wire} Antenna -or- Inverted "L"
Antenna ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...364956151adbba

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...f4e4ded6f94686

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...a571f3bebdca61

* Questions on Inverted "L" Antenna
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...b3ddbed819958d

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...f7b5506cc942e2
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...90a154db93a89a
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...4b09ea224f4434


* Basic Antenna Question - - - Noise Reducing Antennas
The SWL Version of the Inverted "L" Antenna
works well as an Omni-Directional Antenna.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...6c390272c6c91f

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...463ad863e5b075

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ffeaab835e3bb6


* WHY - The simple Random Wire Antenna is better than
the Dipole Antenna for the Shortwave Listener (SWL)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...023dcbd76abc37

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ecfc2f91fe5c7e

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...d43c05075de087
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ed7dc5f3aadadc

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...38331627ba89a1

* Random Wire Antenna Question . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...2aaad971aa2c2f
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...56237ce6553389
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...68df4a9df55dae
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...3fe02cad4e5650

* Low Noise Shortwave Listener's (SWL) Antenna - by Design
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ab857189fec531
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...26baf640c5d346

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...be7387aae66292
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...b0ba01c418c6c9

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...57f23580332f73
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...07cc179fcc3dbd
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...e1f930c8d189db


* Consider Buying or Building a better Shortwave Listener's (SWL)
Antenna.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...2ff595de9fea91
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...f41e85486b0ed9

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...11c0ac4f084b87
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...ffeaab835e3bb6



hope this helps - iane ~ RHF
.
.
Tous Sont Bienvenus ! - - - Groupe par Radio
d'auditeur d'onde courte pour des Antennes de SWL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
Alle Sind Willkommen ! - - - Shortwave Radiozuhörer
Gruppe für SWL Antennen
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
Tutti Sono Benvenuti ! - - - Gruppo Radiofonico
dell'ascoltatore di onda corta per le Antenne di SWL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
Todos São Bem-vindos ! - - - Grupo de Rádio
do ouvinte do Shortwave para Antenas de SWL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
Ð’Ñ�е Ð*адушны ! - - - Группа оператора
на приеме коротковолнового диапазона
Radio дл� Aнтенн SWL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
¡Todos Son Agradables! - - - Grupo de Radio del oyente
de la onda corta para las Antenas de SWL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
= = = = = Translation = = = = =
All are Welcome - - - To Join the Shortwave Listeners
(SWL) Antenna Group on YAHOO !
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
.
.
.. .

Why Antenna Tuners Aren't Necessarily Useful for Shortwave Listening - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

You are not making logical sense. The random wire non-resonant common
mode antenna is a good reference antenna precisely because it has little
theoretical gain and it will work anywhere.

So the same can be said for a 1/2 wave dipole. The gain of a length
of wire will not vary much depending on how it's fed. Only the length
really matters. Of course, different methods of feeding vary as far as
system efficiency. In the case of 1/2 wave or smaller wires, the
efficiency of the feed system is about the only thing that matters
much among the various versions of such.

You compare it against a
dipole and the dipole should show gain over it as should any other
antenna type made to be resonant at some frequency.

How you fiqure? If the random wire were longer than the 1/2 WL dipole,
it could actually have more gain in a certain direction. The reason a
dipole is the common benchmark for horizontal wires is because it's a
well known measured quanity. Exactly what you want as a "benchmark",
or reference antenna. Look at most any antenna ad's for yagi's. If you
can find one that is measured against a random wire, I'll send you $20.
Most all will be measured against a 1/2 wave dipole at the same height,

or instead be listed as dbi, which is a theoretical value. The only
difference
between dbd and dbi is about 2.1 db. You are just shifting your
reference.

Stop thinking like
an amateur, this is a SW listening news group.

What does that have to do with anything? I place no distinction between
an
antenna used for transmit, and one receive. They both obey the same
laws.
I use the same types of antennas for both jobs. The better an antenna
is
at transmitting , in general ditto for receive. The properties of an
antenna
between transmit, and receive are reciprical. IE: if an antenna has
gain in a
certain direction, this applies equally transmit, or receive. I will
always
use the best antenna for the job I can put up. And that is rarely ever
a
random wire. Random wires are too micky mouse for my blood.
But you can consider that a personal problem. :/

A random wire is the
basic antenna here.

Sure, it may be for some, but I'm sure not all are content
to stay with one antenna their whole life.
I'm just as much as SWL as you are, and my "basic" antenna is
a 1/2 wave dipole. I've been SWLing since 1964, when I got my
first radio at the age of 8. A good bit longer than I've been a ham.
I didn't get into ham radio until the 8th grade. Didn't get legal until
77.
When did you start SWLing? If it's longer than 42 years, I'll give
you a free cookie.


If you want technical antenna theory then yeah a
dipole is a basic reference radiator most transmit antennas.

Whether it's for transmit or not is not really relevant.
What other kind of antenna theory is there?
Do they also have "sears" antenna theory, "geico" antenna
theory, "dimbulb" antenna theory, etc?
I thought there was just one version...
Heck, the other guy was the one that brought up what "pro's"
would use or do. Pro's don't measure antennas against
random wires. And I doubt most would use one if they could
use something better. I don't use random wires, and I'm not
even a pro. :/ Are you suggesting I would be a better SWLer
if I changed to random wires? That'll be the day... :/ LOL...
MK

--

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

Hey, you asked for opinions in your first post
of the thread. If you don't like my opinions, thats
too bad. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna.
Do you think when I switch from a SWL to a ham band,
I need to switch antenna types? LOL...You guys kill me..
MK

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

On 12 Mar 2006 01:08:39 -0800, wrote:

Hey, you asked for opinions in your first post
of the thread. If you don't like my opinions, thats
too bad. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna.
Do you think when I switch from a SWL to a ham band,
I need to switch antenna types? LOL...You guys kill me..
MK

We're not worthy...

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

On 11 Mar 2006 23:12:08 -0800, "RHF"
wrote:

A random length dipole will work as well as any random length "wire."
With or without an antenna tuner. And be easier to feed.

Bob
k5qwg

For One and All,

THE PROFESSIONAL {AMATEUR} VIEW POINT
- - - HAMMING IT UP ! - - -

Amateurs are not professionals...

excerpted...

excerpted...

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:26:15 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

On 11 Mar 2006 23:12:08 -0800, "RHF"
wrote:

A random length dipole will work as well as any random length "wire."
With or without an antenna tuner. And be easier to feed.

Bob
k5qwg

''Random length dipole'' makes little sense.

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:33:26 GMT, David wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:26:15 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

On 11 Mar 2006 23:12:08 -0800, "RHF"
wrote:

A random length dipole will work as well as any random length "wire."
With or without an antenna tuner. And be easier to feed.

Bob
k5qwg

''Random length dipole'' makes little sense.

aka 'Doublet' where you have two equal lengths of wire that are not
cut to any specific frequency, rather they are cut to fit the maximum
dimension you have available. Doublets are typically fed with
twinlead and a tuner is used.

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted"L" {Random Wire} Antenn...
 

I am thinking I might string a sloper antenna wire out in my back
yard.If I think an antenna tuner might be usefull for me,I will drive on
over to MFG Enterprises and let them folks suggest something for me.Noo
to much a drive for me to make,we are in the same State.
cuhulin,the Mississippi

The Next Step - The Low Noise Inverted "L" {Random Wire} Antenna - Question Shortwave Listening (SWL) Antenna Tuners - Do You Have An Opinion ?
 

On 12 Mar 2006 01:08:39 -0800, wrote:

Hey, you asked for opinions in your first post
of the thread. If you don't like my opinions, thats
too bad. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna.
Do you think when I switch from a SWL to a ham band,
I need to switch antenna types? LOL...You guys kill me..
MK

Well how can your receiver work with an antenna made for transmit 8-}